IQ and INT, and i love Gauss! - And Stats for females-

[seneschal]

"I've been thinking of tying STR more closely to SIZ. There probably shouldn't be characters with STR 18, SIZ 8. "

I'm not so sure. There was a boy in my junior high gym class who was a little squirt ... except that he'd apparently been picked on as a younger kid and had compensated by taking up bodybuilding. He was a squat, muscular fireplug of a guy, not someone you'd want to grapple with. Take Conan or Tarzan and squash 'em to under 5 feet and you get the general effect.

[Dredj]

Certainly in BRP terms, a SIZ 8 man with STR 11, is identical (in that regard) to a SIZ 8 woman of STR 11. I suppose to be totally "realistic" you would need to account for women on average having lower upper body strength than men, but I don't know how you'd do that under the game system, or whether it would even be useful.

I keep thinking of Xenia Onatopp from Golden Eye.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Dredj

[Smoking Frog]

I keep thinking of Xenia Onatopp from Golden Eye.

You wonder if the victims of the "thighs of death" were disappointed or thought it was worth it.

[Smoking Frog]

"I've been thinking of tying STR more closely to SIZ. There probably shouldn't be characters with STR 18, SIZ 8. "

I'm not so sure. There was a boy in my junior high gym class who was a little squirt ... except that he'd apparently been picked on as a younger kid and had compensated by taking up bodybuilding. He was a squat, muscular fireplug of a guy, not someone you'd want to grapple with. Take Conan or Tarzan and squash 'em to under 5 feet and you get the general effect.

Robert E. Howard's Francis Xavier Gorden ("El Borak") was described as being shorter than average and slender but very strong. So he might easily be a SIZ 10 and STR 16+.

Apropos of nothing, if you've never read any El Borak stories, they are a fun read.

[KingSkin]

Two other factors that haven't been mentioned but play a big part in the amount of strength someone can bring to bear:

1) Knowing how to use your strength. I used to work as a labourer on building sites and you learn pretty quickly that you can carry a lot more if you know what you're doing.

2) Pain threshold. What usually stops someone bringing more strength to bear is the fact that it hurts when you stress your muscles. That's why you get stories of guys on PCP lifting much more than they should be able to. They tear their muscles apart but can't feel it. Likewise, if you've got a higher pain threshold you can lift more than would be expected for your frame.

[Smoking Frog]

Two other factors that haven't been mentioned but play a big part in the amount of strength someone can bring to bear:

1) Knowing how to use your strength. I used to work as a labourer on building sites and you learn pretty quickly that you can carry a lot more if you know what you're doing.

2) Pain threshold. What usually stops someone bringing more strength to bear is the fact that it hurts when you stress your muscles. That's why you get stories of guys on PCP lifting much more than they should be able to. They tear their muscles apart but can't feel it. Likewise, if you've got a higher pain threshold you can lift more than would be expected for your frame.

Excellent points. Carrying a load of bricks in your outstretched arms is doomed to failure, but position it over yourself so you can use all your big muscles, and you're in business. People who've humped a really heavy backpack know this too: You can position it on your back so you can carry it all day, but you'd not get very far holding it in your arms. There's a big difference between what you can hold and what your can carry.

While adrenaline obviously isn't PCP -- at least that's what people tell me -- I would think in a desperate situation, a character might be able to accomplish some strength feat that would even injure him or her, like moving a big slab you should not be able to move, which sprains your back, leg, arm or whatever, but at least the monster is trapped on the other side.

[rust]

Robert E. Howard's Francis Xavier Gorden ("El Borak") was described as being shorter than average and slender but very strong. So he might easily be a SIZ 10 and STR 16+.

True, but I would hesitate to accept a fictional character as an example, I could

easily write a story about someone with SIZ 3 and STR 20.

[Atgxtg]

Robert E. Howard's Francis Xavier Gorden ("El Borak") was described as being shorter than average and slender but very strong. So he might easily be a SIZ 10 and STR 16+.

Apropos of nothing, if you've never read any El Borak stories, they are a fun read.

Considering that Howard also has Conan, "lifting a rock that no human could possibly lift", I'm not convinced.

Plus there are quite a few cases where mass should factor into things. For example, most primates are, for thier SIZ, stronger than humans, yet if a money grabs your leg, you can probably drag him along.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Atgxtg

[icebrand]

"I've been thinking of tying STR more closely to SIZ. There probably shouldn't be characters with STR 18, SIZ 8. "

I'm not so sure. There was a boy in my junior high gym class who was a little squirt ... except that he'd apparently been picked on as a younger kid and had compensated by taking up bodybuilding. He was a squat, muscular fireplug of a guy, not someone you'd want to grapple with. Take Conan or Tarzan and squash 'em to under 5 feet and you get the general effect.

From personal experience, i have more trouble grappling with a bigger guy than with a stronger guy. But take it with a pinch of salt, its only anecdotic.

[rust]

I think there is a good reason why in almost all martial arts where strength is

important the athletes are organized in classes based on their weight (= body

mass) for the competitions, and why it is considered unfair to put a light weight

athlete against a heavy weight athlete.

[Smoking Frog]

Well, of course, El Borak isn't "real," but he's as "real" as any PC or NPC. It would seem that as a "type" he's not outlandish. I would not want to restrict players' options regarding SIZ and STR because just as someone may want to have rippling thews of steel and the reflexes of a panther (STR 21, SIZ 18, DEX 18), someone else might want to be smaller than average, extremely swift, and deceptively strong (STR 15, SIZ 10, DEX 18).

Mass certainly does matter. The damage bonus is based on STR + SIZ. So Uncle Clem (STR 12 and SIZ 12) has the same damage bonus as Pip the Mighty Squeak (STR 21 and SIZ 3). If Uncle Clem were to arm wrestle Pip, Pip has a huge advantage. But Clem could pick Pip up and throw him. And a super-sized sumo wrestler of SIZ 26, even if he "only" has a STR of 13, is not going to be moved by much. Don't even think about what happens if the sumo body slams Pip. Ouch.

[Atgxtg]

Well, of course, El Borak isn't "real," but he's as "real" as any PC or NPC. It would seem that as a "type" he's not outlandish. I would not want to restrict players' options regarding SIZ and STR because just as someone may want to have rippling thews of steel and the reflexes of a panther (STR 21, SIZ 18, DEX 18), someone else might want to be smaller than average, extremely swift, and deceptively strong (STR 15, SIZ 10, DEX 18).

I certainly would want to restrict players. Just becuase they want something doesn't mean than they are entitled to it. What if some player wants a 30 STR?

BTW, the STR 15, SIZ 10 guy doesn't bother me. I said I wanted limits. Some people can lift more that thier body weight, so I can accept STR being higher than SIZ. But there should be a limit as to how much higher.

Mass certainly does matter. The damage bonus is based on STR + SIZ. So Uncle Clem (STR 12 and SIZ 12) has the same damage bonus as Pip the Mighty Squeak (STR 21 and SIZ 3). If Uncle Clem were to arm wrestle Pip, Pip has a huge advantage. But Clem could pick Pip up and throw him. And a super-sized sumo wrestler of SIZ 26, even if he "only" has a STR of 13, is not going to be moved by much. Don't even think about what happens if the sumo body slams Pip. Ouch.

But, Pip just couldn't have that 21 STR without the muscle mass. It is the same reason why you can"t have a 1000 hp moped that weights 50 pounds. You need a certain mass for a certain muscle.

And as for SIZ in play, it does factor into the db, but it is ignored when determining the attack chance. Fighting someone who has 20 pounds on you can be an "uphill battle". That extra mass plays a factor. But not in BRP.

[icebrand]

BTW, the STR 15, SIZ 10 guy doesn't bother me. I said I wanted limits. Some people can lift more that thier body weight, so I can accept STR being higher than SIZ. But there should be a limit as to how much higher.

As a rule of thumb, an elite athlete for combat sports and the like can bench press about 200% his weight.

[Atgxtg]

As a rule of thumb, an elite athlete for combat sports and the like can bench press about 200% his weight.

THat would be about +8 STR in BRP. Of coruse Bench Press lifting isn't the only way to lift, but at least it's a start.

[icebrand]

Then SIZ+8 is TOTALLY POSSIBLE to train, and up to SIZ+16? for powerlifters.

Of course, we have way better training methods and supplements today, but STR should totally be trainable over SIZ (though if you want to reach your full potential you must start young)

[SDLeary]

Then SIZ+8 is TOTALLY POSSIBLE to train, and up to SIZ+16? for powerlifters.

Of course, we have way better training methods and supplements today, but STR should totally be trainable over SIZ (though if you want to reach your full potential you must start young)

I can't remember if this was a house rule or not, but for some reason I have 1.5x stuck in my head. Str could be "trained" no higher than 1.5 x Siz. Now that I'm thinking harder about it, I'm thinking un-enhanced Str in Superworld (not that that should apply to RQ or Cthulhu, or any other variation of BRP). Anyone out there can check this, my copy is packed away at the moment.

SDLeary

[Smoking Frog]

I certainly would want to restrict players. Just becuase they want something doesn't mean than they are entitled to it. What if some player wants a 30 STR?

The same thing if he wants a POW 30, INT 30, or APP 30: The characteristics can't exceed 21 at creation, so super-Conan is limited to STR 21 initially. And if he wants to pump-iron to build up to STR 30, he's still out of luck: you can't train up STR or CON higher than the highest starting value of STR, CON, or SIZ.

If I was running a game with a sufficiently high level of silliness that a villain named Pip the Mighty Squeak would fit in, I hope no one would ask how such a shrimp can be so strong. (You're not going to complain that Mighty Mouse is too little to lift a building are you?)

[Dredj]

Considering that Howard also has Conan, "lifting a rock that no human could possibly lift", I'm not convinced.

Or in Almuric where the main character survives a fall that no other human being could survive because he's better built than any other human. That seems to be a theme to Howard's characters.

[seneschal]

Pulp heroes: they're just ... that ... tough! (insert manly grunt here)

[Atgxtg]

Pulp heroes: they're just ... that ... tough! (insert manly grunt here)

No, Dreji's right. it is Howard. They guy wasn't a big tough guy, and seemed to be somewhat fixated on heroes who were tough and strong. Not all pulp heroes are that way. I'm not even sure if Doc Savage could pass Howard's physical fitness requirements.

[Atgxtg]

The same thing if he wants a POW 30, INT 30, or APP 30: The characteristics can't exceed 21 at creation, so super-Conan is limited to STR 21 initially. And if he wants to pump-iron to build up to STR 30, he's still out of luck: you can't train up STR or CON higher than the highest starting value of STR, CON, or SIZ.

Actually it is limited to lower than that. Usially 18 (the max you can roll). And raising it above that is hard, and the upper cap is 21, not the cap during character creation.

And my point is that character do have limits imposed on them. So there is nothing wrong with this limit.

If I wanted a game with a character like Conan, I'd probably just allow the players to dip into the super power rules. So Conan might have a few points of SuperSTR.

If I was running a game with a sufficiently high level of silliness that a villain named Pip the Mighty Squeak would fit in, I hope no one would ask how such a shrimp can be so strong. (You're not going to complain that Mighty Mouse is too little to lift a building are you?)

I would if I were not running a Supers game. I'd also complain if the building didn't fall apart when he lifted it to, unless it was a supers campaign.

[Smoking Frog]

Actually it is limited to lower than that. Usially 18 (the max you can roll). And raising it above that is hard, and the upper cap is 21, not the cap during character creation.

And my point is that character do have limits imposed on them. So there is nothing wrong with this limit.

You might want to consult the BGB page 16 re: maximum initial starting characteristics. You are incorrect.

Your point now may be something different, but the point you made previously was that someone should not be allowed to have a small SIZ and high STR. My point in response was that a player might want to have a character like this. Your response was that players shouldn't get anything they want, the proof being the question: What if they want a 30 STR? To which, I correctly responded, that under the rules as written, they can't have a character with a 30 STR, at least not at initial creation or under the rules for increasing characteristics. (Barring super-powers of course, but that's not the same as a 30 STR.)

To put this succinctly, you were arguing that the rules as written allow players to create characters that should not be permitted. My point was that I saw a reason why such characters should exist. If you now want to argue about something else, fine, but I'm not sure I even know what your new point is, so I can't tell whether I agree or not.

[rust]

What if they want a 30 STR? To which, I correctly responded, that under the rules as written, they can't have a character with a 30 STR, at least not at initial creation or under the rules for increasing characteristics. (Barring super-powers of course, but that's not the same as a 30 STR.)

With the Point-Based Character Creation (BGB, page 19) a player could easily

create a character with an initial STR of 30+ once the restrictions of a "normal"

power level are lifted, with an "epic" power level he could even have a charac-

ter with an initial STR of 48 - who could probably throw Conan over a house.

[Smoking Frog]

With the Point-Based Character Creation (BGB, page 19) a player could easily

create a character with an initial STR of 30+ once the restrictions of a "normal"

power level are lifted, with an "epic" power level he could even have a charac-

ter with an initial STR of 48 - who could probably throw Conan over a house.

That range sounds about right for epic guys. A real epic character like Cuchulain should be able to eat a twerp like Conan for breakfast before going out to kill 27 warriors with one swing. So he's got to have at least super strength.

I'm seriously considering using a SIZ limit on STR for my Heian Japan setting, because the average person is considerably smaller than the "normal" range under the rule for SIZ = 2D6+6. Since the normal range for Heian era males is something like SIZ 6 to 13, with an average SIZ of 9.5, imposing a limit of SIZ + 8 for STR may be in order. Otherwise you could potentially have someone with SIZ 6 and STR 21, which is just too out of balance. I'm also thinking that the STR will determine the character's mass; if the STR is at the high end of what is possible for that SIZ, then the mass has to be at the high end of the range for that SIZ too. That way you can have short burly guys, but no super strong twerps. But I'm trying to do a historical/heroic level, so people who are unusually strong need to also be on the large size.

If I were doing an epic level Heian setting, I'd have to let warriors be so strong that they could sink a ship with one arrow.

[Atgxtg]

Okay guys, I7ll conceed to the 21 limit over the 18. I failed to consider the extra 3 points in the rolled method.

As for stats 30+, they require specific approval by the GM, and are designed for epic/superhero campaigns with a "larger than life" aspect to them. I7m fine with doing so for such games, but thaose are hardly the standard.

I still say that for a realsitic game (and that was pretty much the default for Chaosium games) STR shouldn't exceed SIZ beyond a certain amount.

Smoking Frog, I didn't say that players shouldn't get anything they want. Just that they are not entitled to something just becuase they want it. There is a big difference there.