Off Topic - Really! Christianity and RPGs

[pansophy]

Well, well. While looking for "Critical Hit Tables" on the Internet, I found this URL:

http://www.espministries.com/Topic-Dungeons.html

Somebody who is talking about D&D and how evil RPGs are. I know this is waaaaaay Off-Topic, but I thought it might be worth a look.

While I do not want to place my religious believes on the plate here, I still find the topic interesting.

The guy is talking about how players over-identificate with their characters. Well, HE is not saying that, but quoting it.

What he says is:

<<After extensive research, the Christian Life Ministries concludes: "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS™ instead of a game is a teaching on demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, Satan worship, gambling, Jungian psychology, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon summoning. Necromantics, divination and many more teachings, brought to you in living color direct from the pit of hell!!!">>

Wow, never thought about that. In fact, it does not even bother me. Neither side, the "dark" nor the "light" one. To my THIS is over-reaction.

>>". . . after years of study of the history of occultism, after having researched a book on the subject, and after having consulted with scholars in the field of historical research, I can say with confidence: these games are the most effective, most magnificently packaged, most profitably marketed, most thoroughly researched introduction to the occult in man's recorded history."<<

So, it means that every author writing an RPG book or fantasy novels is an occult member trying to spread the occult word? This brings light into many Call of Cthulhu RPG books now ... I think I now fully understand the Other Gods, Nyarlathotep, Azatoth and ... oooooh (critical failure of my sanity check)

He is right, though, these RPG books are well researched, well worded, effective and the best books covering the topic in known history.

Do they bring me to the edge of madness? Is their way leading away from God? I do not think so.

But the books do get me THINKING! And questioning given facts that others take for granted ...

>>John Torell, with Christian Life Ministries in California, received a phone call from a medical doctor in Seattle, Washington. The doctor is treating a policeman for severe depression caused by the suicide of his sixteen-year-oId son. The son, who had been heavily involved in D&D™ for two years, shot himself with his father's service revolver.<<

And D&D is involved in the death because ...?

>>Some have argued that D&D™ is a healthy release of suppressed hostilities. But seeing the power that can be seized in games, psychiatrist Laurence Johnson cautions, "If I had a child who tended toward schizophrenia, I'd never let him near D&D™. There's a danger that it would reinforce feelings of grandiosity, of omnipotence. Reality and fantasy are hard enough for schizophrenics to differentiate."<<

Jep, that is right. And you do not want to watch TV if you suffer from epileptic seizures. It is a fact that people with certain illnesses have to be careful what they do.

>>"[...] Nearly everybody would rather play evil characters because they are much more powerful."<

That is not true and lacks facts. It purely depends on the rule system.

>>Does it {D&D} increase or decrease a player’s faith in God and His Word?<<

Does it have to? Does a book have to do that? A movie? A radio station?

>>Make sure that your children are not involved with or participating in D&D™.

Distribute this information to young people, youth ministers, teachers, etc.

Contact me for more information, especially if your child or children are involved.<<

Wow, he reminds me on the discussion if Heavy Metal music is evil and satanic. Some people just do not get it. On the other hand, I do not get his so strong believes in god. Looks like he is on a mission and made some long shots here.

I only do hope parents will do a better research on the topic than he did and they come to a conclusion that is best for their child.

[icebrand]

1- isn't this from the 80's or something?

2- u.s. christians are hilarious!

3- i made retroquest... THIS MEANS IM A WARLOCK!!!

4- just let me cast those spells to curse, kill and maim whoever slightly wronged me and ill be back to fill #4!!! (may take a while!)

5- REALLY!!! I've dark powers!!!! ANCIENT OLD ONES, RAISE, RAISE AND OBEY MY COMMANDS!!!

Update: Just tweeted them:

@ESPMinistries i your D&D article! HILARIOUS! Can i get an email or something when you update so i laugh more? BTW, still cant cast hexes

You can follow me at twitter at http://twitter.com/#!/ale_hart . I have *DINOSAURS* as background!!!

Edited July 1, 2011 by icebrand

[pansophy]

Yep, I wrote him an email, telling him he is a bit off-course and did exaggerate some facts.

In my opinion he is the one who mixes up fantasy and reality. This is DANGEROUS! He should seek some professional help. Someone with a Science (Psychology) skill greater than 60% ... oh, hey wait ... did I just think in game terms? Damn me! I am evil! God help me! Save my poor soul!

Seriously. He should do better research. I sometimes wonder how many ill persons wander on this planet without being supervised. Sadly I find not too few of them hiding behind 'the cross'. Child abusers, rapists, fanatics and occultists. Not to mention the wars against the orient during the middle ages. And the holy wars during the last decades.

I am still waiting for Chaosium putting out a CoC book "Divine Intervention", which includes all the occult doings, shady acts and wrongs done by the catholic church during its existence. But I bet such a book would raise too much concern, even if it might find lots of buyers.

Somebody ever thought about asking the catholic church to give back all the stuff they plundered during its holy wars? To open its archives and show the world the treasures they took from others? Anyway, this is even more off-topic than the thread itself.

PRGs are evil. Sure. And the church is living to the ten commandments. Yep.

[icebrand]

I just sent an email to them!!! Well, Ned Diggler did!

"I just found your website, and i'm sincerely worried im an occultist. I read all harry potter books, and even liked them; i had several dreams about me flying with harry on his magic broom, and even more lustful endeavors, but i never thought it would be sinful to do so.

In addition, all my friends always do that rollplaying stuff, but i never went, and i felt relieved when i saw your article today. It enraged me, i even thought i should hit them for trying to take me to a satan worship. But then i realized they probably have knifes and stuff, so i refrained.

Also, wasnt king solomon a practicer of witchcraft too? i mean, he saw the future and stuff?

I hope you can guide me back to the light of the lord.

Yours truly,

Ned"

Lets see what they come up with ^^

[pansophy]

lol I bet you won't get any answer ...

[Smoking Frog]

2- u.s. christians are hilarious!

It's more than a little ignorant to ascribe the views of one dufus to millions of people who do not share his beliefs.

[icebrand]

It's more than a little ignorant to ascribe the views of one dufus to millions of people who do not share his beliefs.

"u.s. fanatical christians as depicted by their own media".

There! Now be good or ill summon nyarlathotep!!

[pansophy]

It's more than a little ignorant to ascribe the views of one dufus to millions of people who do not share his beliefs.

I bet it was meant in an exaggerated way. Do not take it too serious.

[icebrand]

I bet it was meant in an exaggerated way. Do not take it too serious.

+1!!!

Also, we don't have christians in my country!

Well, we do, but they are so funny it doesn't count!

[Guest Vile Traveller]

I think that guy has a point, RPGs are dangerous and evil, but his way of exposing them is soo 80s. Now, this guy doesn't pull any punches:

http://www.ilmatar.net/~np/gameofsatan/

[pansophy]

Wow, Vile, that one beats it all! You are a cultist, or how did you find that site? Did you use Google, that search engine from hell that lurkes in the Internet to prey on harmless web sites?

[Guest Vile Traveller]

I have to come clean and admit that it was rust who uncovered the Voice of Truth that is the Twoedged Sword Of VENGEANCE against so-called "Role-Players".

Using USB is SATAN WORSHIPPING!!!!

[Mankcam]

RPGs being the Work of Satan. This brings back memories of mullet haircuts and dodgy keyboard music...

Back in 1985 my school librarian banned D&D because it was a satanic game, apparently attributing an outbreak of teenage suicides to it over in the USA.

It was the best thing that happened to us. It meant that gamers at my school had to play other games in the high school library instead, such as RuneQuest, Rolemaster, MERP, Call of Cthuhlu... These had no profile at the time as they weren't TSR's D&D, so we had free reign heh heh

I must admit I'm surprised this thinking has crept back in, it just goes to show that there's some weirdos still out there

See everyone in Hell ( I hear it's RPG nights mid week and saturdays!)

[threedeesix]

Here are a couple videos warning about these very issues.

If I had known about this all those years ago, I may never have gotten into role playing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBEka-RIy1Y&feature=related

These may change your feelings of the evils of fantasy role playing, they have mine.

Rod

[Conrad]

<<After extensive research, the Christian Life Ministries concludes: "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS™ instead of a game is a teaching on demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, Satan worship, gambling, Jungian psychology, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon summoning. Necromantics, divination and many more teachings, brought to you in living color direct from the pit of hell!!!">>

I wondered why D&D was so much fun! "I'll just grab my+1 whore and commit a morally dubious flanking manoeuvre on that porn dragon!"

>>". . . after years of study of the history of occultism, after having researched a book on the subject, and after having consulted with scholars in the field of historical research, I can say with confidence: these games are the most effective, most magnificently packaged, most profitably marketed, most thoroughly researched introduction to the occult in man's recorded history."<<

Dungeon roleplaying just became devilishly cool again.

I wonder if there was ever an overtly Christian RPG published to combat this evil tide of D&D games? Saviours & Sabbaths anyone? Nuns & Nuncios?

[icebrand]

Using USB is SATAN WORSHIPPING!!!!

Does a phone count as USB? Because theyll have to pry my htc from my cold, dead, satanic clutches (well, unless i get an iphone, in that case a couple of bucks will do)

[Guest Vile Traveller]

I wonder if there was ever an overtly Christian RPG published to combat this evil tide of D&D games?

I'm pretty sure there is some kind of Christian version of (ironically) D&D, can't seem to reacll it's name, though.

Does a phone count as USB? Because theyll have to pry my htc from my cold, dead, satanic clutches (well, unless i get an iphone, in that case a couple of bucks will do)

Only if it has the Devil's infernal trident on it:

[icebrand]

I'm pretty sure there is some kind of Christian version of (ironically) D&D, can't seem to reacll it's name, though.

Only if it has the Devil's infernal trident on it:

AWESOME!!! MY PHONE IS DEVIL-FREE!!!

But... But... I cannot plug it to my pc without the devil's cord... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[rust]

AWESOME!!! MY PHONE IS DEVIL-FREE!!!

I just got a PM from a user named Asmodeus, he thinks you are wrong ...

[Atgxtg]

I went though all this in the 80s when I first started gaming. My mom saw some of the "gamer goes nuts, kills people, eats bodies, lives in swer" thing on the news, and got a litle concerned.

It ididn't take long to set mon straight. "Candlles, arcane books? Are you kidding? We got enough trouble trying to spill out drinks on the rulebooks and battle mat. Hiot wax and fire? No way. Cannibalism? No, we order pizza or get Chinese food from next door."

I had her laghing pretty quickly. Even with the over-identification part. We had guys who lost thier characters ever week. They didn't like it, but they didn't go on a killing spree.

[Narl]

I think that guy has a point, RPGs are dangerous and evil, but his way of exposing them is soo 80s. Now, this guy doesn't pull any punches:

http://www.ilmatar.net/~np/gameofsatan/

"Evil roleplaying games are sliding nude teenage girls on a greased pole straight to the FLAMES of HELL for ETERNAL TORMENT."

What a quote!

[seneschal]

Sigh! More gamer Christian-bashing, based on brief events from 30 years ago? It's a regular cycle at rpg.net. Why do it here?

In the 1970s many Christian parents became concerned, legitimately, about the rising popular interest in the occult and the growth of neo-paganism. D&D, hitting the mainstream in the early '80s, seemed to fit into this trend and was aimed squarely at children. Parents, desiring to instill a Christian worldview in their kids, would naturally be suspicious of anything that appeared to encourage an undue interest in the occult, including fantasy role-playing. Remember, this was years before the Internet; good information was harder to find and misinformation was all too available in the form of reactionary paperbacks, magazine and newspaper articles, pamphlets, and TV shows. And it wasn't only Christians expressing alarm. The mainstream media and secular parents groups got into it, too.

Also, look at Ben Alexander's biography: http://www.espministries.com/about_ben.html

He became a Christian in the 1960s after deep involvement in the real occult. Naturally he'd be touchy about anything that he thought might direct folks toward the lifestyle he's rejected. True, his conclusions are based on half-truths and misconceptions. On the other hand, the Scriptures tell Christians to avoid the appearance of evil and to think only on good things. If the quotes from Ardruin (note, not from D&D) are accurate, that might well qualify that game as one observant kids should avoid. Also, just because he may be misinformed, that doesn't make him a nut case.

Today, tabletop roleplaying is off the radar for most Christian and parent groups. They're much more concerned about the content and values of computer and online games, which are devouring the time, money and attention of both children and adults. Dredging up dated anti-roleplaying material by outliers like Ben Alexander does a disservice to both parents and Christians. It's no longer relevant, and the only motive for doing so is to flog an inaccurate caricature of particular religious group.

[soltakss]

I wonder if there was ever an overtly Christian RPG published to combat this evil tide of D&D games? Saviours & Sabbaths anyone? Nuns & Nuncios?

There was one, I think, but I never saw it.

There are Christian RPG groups out there - http://christian-gamers-guild.org/ for example.

As with all things, some people are anti-gaming as a matter of principle.

I wouldn't get too steamed up about it, to be honest. People who believe that kind of thing won't change their minds and there isn't much point in arguing with them.

When I attended church regularly, there were some people who wouldn't read a book unless it was a Christian one as it would have been time wasted that could have been spent studying the scriptures. Some people didn't watch TV for similar reasons. Very few opposed reading or watching TV because of the content, however.

I knew several very committed Christians who roleplayed and they enjoyed their gaming. They generally avoided certain things and made it clear that certain topics would make it difficult for them to participate and their gaming buddies were fine with that.

[soltakss]

I looked at Holy Lands once but it wasn't my cup of tea.

[Vortigern]

Sigh! More gamer Christian-bashing, based on brief events from 30 years ago? It's a regular cycle at rpg.net. Why do it here?

In the 1970s many Christian parents became concerned, legitimately, about the rising popular interest in the occult and the growth of neo-paganism. D&D, hitting the mainstream in the early '80s, seemed to fit into this trend and was aimed squarely at children. Parents, desiring to instill a Christian worldview in their kids, would naturally be suspicious of anything that appeared to encourage an undue interest in the occult, including fantasy role-playing. Remember, this was years before the Internet; good information was harder to find and misinformation was all too available in the form of reactionary paperbacks, magazine and newspaper articles, pamphlets, and TV shows. And it wasn't only Christians expressing alarm. The mainstream media and secular parents groups got into it, too.

Also, look at Ben Alexander's biography: http://www.espministries.com/about_ben.html

He became a Christian in the 1960s after deep involvement in the real occult. Naturally he'd be touchy about anything that he thought might direct folks toward the lifestyle he's rejected. True, his conclusions are based on half-truths and misconceptions. On the other hand, the Scriptures tell Christians to avoid the appearance of evil and to think only on good things. If the quotes from Ardruin (note, not from D&D) are accurate, that might well qualify that game as one observant kids should avoid. Also, just because he may be misinformed, that doesn't make him a nut case.

Today, tabletop roleplaying is off the radar for most Christian and parent groups. They're much more concerned about the content and values of computer and online games, which are devouring the time, money and attention of both children and adults. Dredging up dated anti-roleplaying material by outliers like Ben Alexander does a disservice to both parents and Christians. It's no longer relevant, and the only motive for doing so is to flog an inaccurate caricature of particular religious group.

Agreed.

Such as commenting that 'U.S. Christians are Hilarious'.

It seems an unfortunate trend.

Though on the one hand I can understand the desire to poke fun at and/or cut back at someone who obviously spouts untruths... doing so in such a generic and overly inclusive way doesn't lend any dignity or credence to a counter argument.