Taxes in Orlanthi society

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Loot ... also easy to work out

Here's where I disagree.  Cash loot is easy of course.

But what's the proper tithe on the one piece of iron armor from Berevenos (Dragon of Thunder Hills)?  How about a Hippogriff (Pegasus Plateau)?  Etc...

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Here's where I disagree.  Cash loot is easy of course.

But what's the proper tithe on the one piece of iron armor from Berevenos (Dragon of Thunder Hills)?  How about a Hippogriff (Pegasus Plateau)?  Etc...

First off that stuff is damn rare. Second off, if you get an iron panoply, the rightful thing is to give the whole damn thing to the temple. Unless you are a rune master, you probably aren't going to use it anyways and this will buy you powerful favours. And if you are a rune master and you offer it to your god, odds are you are going to be told to take it from the temple and use it in the service of the temple. And even if you aren't, if you have been a diligent and devoted member of the temple, you might get told that anyway.

So actually it is pretty easy. 

 

[AndreJarosch]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

And a legion of scribes keep tally of these tolls. 

For more information on where Sartar gets its money, see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/sartar-money-and-war/

Can you remind me again how much silver a talent in Glorantha is, please?

[John Biles]

1 hour ago, AndreJarosch said:

Can you remind me again how much silver a talent in Glorantha is, please?

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/lunar-imperial-finances/

A Talent = 300 Lunars.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 11/19/2023 at 2:13 AM, Jose-san said:

 

Initiates are supposed to pay 10% of their income to their temple.... how do you manage this?

Do you take this into account? Does it affect PC in any way?

What other taxes exist in Orlanthi society, do clans, tribes and/or cities collect taxes in any way? If so how and how much?

 

Other taxes....

Tolls upon entering cities.  Amounts vary with your game.

Perhaps tolls on roads: a more polite variant of highway robbery.  This is usually  suppressed on Sartar royal roads when you have a strong Prince, but elsewhere and elsewhen??? 

Import duties at ports, amount depending on the port, IMG.

Market fees if you are selling.  That is canon, see Cults of Prax.  But amounts are not canon.

Ground rent if you have a house in a city.  Land is essentially leased, as I understand it. This is essentially equivalent to a property tax.

The 20% tithe on agriculture is the big " tax", and in a mostly agricultural society that raises almost 20% of Gross National Product, which is definitely not a post Bronze Age concept.

There is no income tax, because it is not practical in a mostly illiterate society. Again, not a Bronze Age idea. However for grins I made an Orlanthi Form 1040, and will attach it.  Mostly for players who quibble over tithes, though also to amuse myself.

Your cult tithes apply to non ag income, at least for initiates and above.  But this is not a "tax".  It is not enforced by a king who might be deceived, only by your gods who are aware of everything their initiates do (see Divination) (see Spirits of Retribution).

As I understand it (YGMV),  kings and Lunar governors may collect a tax as a percentage of property.    Probably with your clan as the collector, subject to royal displeasure.  However people and clans  may attempt to hide property from tax collectors.  But that is not a normal thing in time of peace for non subject peoples.  It is a historical background thing, not in the RQiG rulebook.  You can use it to oppress your players, as used in [spoiler] Six Seasons.   

 

 

Orlanthi form 1040 draft 1.pdf

Edited November 28, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
proofreading; and attaching the form.

[Jose-san]

49 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Other taxes....

Tolls upon entering cities.  Amounts vary with your game.

Perhaps tolls on roads: a more polite variant of highway robbery.  This is usually  suppressed on Sartar royal roads when you have a strong Prince, but elsewhere and elsewhen??? 

Import duties at ports, amount depending on the port, IMG.

Market fees if you are selling.  That is canon, see Cults of Prax.  But amounts are not canon.

Ground rent if you have a house in a city.  Land is essentially leased, as I understand it. This is essentially equivalent to a property tax.

The 20% tithe on agriculture is the big " tax", and in a mostly agricultural society that raises almost 20% of Gross National Product, which is definitely not a post Bronze Age concept.

There is no income tax, because it is not practical in a mostly illiterate society. Again, not a Bronze Age idea. However for grins I made an Orlanthi Form 1040, and will attach it.  Mostly for players who quibble over tithes, though also to amuse myself.

Your cult tithes apply to non ag income, at least for initiates and above.  But this is not a "tax".  It is not enforced by a king who might be deceived, only by your gods who are aware of everything their initiates do (see Divination) (see Spirits of Retribution).

As I understand it (YGMV),  kings and Lunar governors may collect a tax as a percentage of property.    Probably with your clan as the collector, subject to royal displeasure.  However people and clans  may attempt to hide property from tax collectors.  But that is not a normal thing in time of peace for non subject peoples.  It is a historical background thing, not in the RQiG rulebook.  You can use it to oppress your players, as used in [spoiler] Six Seasons.   

 

 

Orlanthi form 1040 draft 1.pdf 30.06 kB · 1 download

I had a burst of laughter reading the form! Thanks 🙂

[Jose-san]

15 hours ago, Jeff said:

The biggest source of money in Sartar are tolls on caravans. Given that almost ALL the trade between Peloria and the rest of the world, and almost ALL trade between Prax and the rest of the world, goes through Sartar, this is a huge amount of revenue. As a result, the Prince of Sartar traditionally enjoys more wealth than a Lunar satrap. As this is largely imposed on outsiders, it is also popular with the tribes.

This is very interesting, thanks!

[Rodney Dangerduck]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

There is no income tax, because it is not practical in a mostly illiterate society

I agree that it is not practical.  But isn't the tithe, as described, exactly that, an income tax?

I am even more confused than before.

[radmonger]

29 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I agree that it is not practical.  But isn't the tithe, as described, exactly that, an income tax?

Religious tithing/taxation long precedes mass literacy, and may precede coinage. 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/history-taxation-ancient-egypt-digital-tax-technologies/

Though, as Jeff points out, Sartar does actually have both coinage and a large class of professional scribes. Though IMG that kind of formal, ledger-driven taxation is solely a things for clans, tribes, cities and guilds. For individuals, it's more commonly a matter of community obligation, organised via temples and enforced by peer pressure, sometimes magic (i.e. spirits of retribution), and ultimately the threat of exile.

What you might find is a particularly rich trader deciding to declare their immediate family as a clan for tax purposes. This cuts off their obligations to all their poorer relatives, making the official levy a lot easier to bear. 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by radmonger

[Jeff]

23 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I agree that it is not practical.  But isn't the tithe, as described, exactly that, an income tax?

I am even more confused than before.

Because you are overthinking it. Harvest is easy to track - you give up a tenth of your harvest to Orlanth and Ernalda (aka the temple). For every ten piglets, calves, or lambs born you give one to the temple. For every ten eggs you give one to the temple. When it is time to slaughter livestock, you give part of the meat to the temple. And this is just how it is always done. If you cheat, you risk angering the gods and spirits - and they DO seek retribution.

And for the rich, the renders you receive from your tenants get the same treatment. But of course you likely give more than 10% to the temple - sacrifices for the blessings of the god, spirit magic, Rune spells, whatever.

[Nozbat]

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Import duties at ports, amount depending on the port, IMG.

I have been trying to work out a Tax system for my Hanseatic Campaign and it was an interesting exercise which ended up with the producers having to pay to make goods... that meant starting again. But @Joerg and I eventually cracked it (City import tax of 3%).

However, an interesting point I read was that the toll, introduced in 1567, by the Danish Crown at the Øresund Sound was 1-2% of the Cargo value. The amount of taxes levied accounted for two thirds of the Danish States income in the 16th and 17th Century.

Another amusing bit of information was that the value of the cargo was self-certified by the ship's Captain, but to ensure that it was not undervalued the State reserved the right to buy the cargo at the certified price! An excellent strategy to keep Merchant's honest.

Ladies and Gentlemen may I present... Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibbler

 

[scott-martin]

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Orlanthi form 1040 draft 1.pdf

All time great work of Gloranthan art worth enshrining IMG alongside such paracanonical flourishes as the gini economy. At a glance I would add a third "Child of" box for supplemental genders and discount ransom flows to reflect Trade Temple policy subsidizing that method of non-violent dispute monetization . . . but you can punt that by pushing people to the itemized form.

[Joerg]

25 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Because you are overthinking it. Harvest is easy to track - you give up a tenth of your harvest to Orlanth and Ernalda (aka the temple).

What do you do with the rest of the harvested grain, linen, or cabbages? We have heard about temple and city granaries. Do farmers keep considerable amounts of their harvests in their homes?

27 minutes ago, Jeff said:

For every ten piglets, calves, or lambs born you give one to the temple.

When the (French) Catholic Church required the shepherds in the Pyrenees to yield every tenth lamb, there was a great upcry and many shepherds fled into Spanish lands or even switched to Catharism (about half a century after the great Cathar crusade, full well realizing the threat of inquisition), according to that excellent litle book Montaillou.

32 minutes ago, Jeff said:

When it is time to slaughter livestock, you give part of the meat to the temple.

Which means your lambs/piglets/calves get tithed again.

For herders tending clan-owned or tribal-owned herd beasts, there is an additional draw from the beasts they raise as dividend to the temple(s).

But then, most of the regular slaughter will be done by and in the temple anyway, and only the autumnal culling of the herds adjusting for winter fodder may result in more beasts slaughtered than required by temple services.

Richer farmers/herders will specialize in providing specific sacrificial beasts for certain services, like fur color requirements (or auspicious beasts for a rite). Providing sacrificial beasts is a form of status achievement, even for a tenant.

Each clan (or grouping of temples) seems to need its own initiate of Waha. That makes home slaughtering a bit problematic, unless Barntar or Ernalda offer the Peaceful Cut, too.

[Squaredeal Sten]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I agree that it is not practical.  But isn't the tithe, as described, exactly that, an income tax?

I am even more confused than before.

No, the agricultural tithe (20% of the harvest, and presumably of the increase in herds too) has no provision for calculating cost of production, and is not collected in money, so it is not even a gross receipts tax.  if it were collected when grain is marketed it would be a gross receipts tax.  But that would miss taking a percentage of the farmers' own consumption.

More important, it bears no resemblance to the real world income tax you may pay now..  It is simple, collected when the harvest is harvested, requires no record keeping, allows no deductions.  And it is on one specific type if gross receipts, too: it obviously does not apply to merchants, crafters, and other non ag occupations.  It is not a tax on incomes in general, it is a tax on the harvest and only the harvest.

This is not to say that the farmers are not being tapped for the grain that makes the world go round.  But 'income tax' has a specific meaning for the rest of us, no matter what meaning you may assign it when talking to yourself.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 11/28/2023 at 1:01 PM, Nozbat said:

I have been trying to work out a Tax system for my Hanseatic Campaign and it was an interesting exercise which ended up with the producers having to pay to make goods... that meant starting again. But @Joerg and I eventually cracked it (City import tax of 3%).

However, an interesting point I read was that the toll, introduced in 1567, by the Danish Crown at the Øresund Sound was 1-2% of the Cargo value. The amount of taxes levied accounted for two thirds of the Danish States income in the 16th and 17th Century.

Another amusing bit of information was that the value of the cargo was self-certified by the ship's Captain, but to ensure that it was not undervalued the State reserved the right to buy the cargo at the certified price! An excellent strategy to keep Merchant's honest.

Ladies and Gentlemen may I present... Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibbler

 

The same 1% to 3% makes sense for tolls at city gates too.  And highway tolls - well, if they are imposed at several locations that can kill trade altogether, unless they are low.  I mean a clack or two per beast of burden.  if they are higher  and frequent then long distance trade will get eaten up by tolls charged by every clan and village. 

IMG that is  what happened when the Prince of Sartar's authority collapsed:  Deer Folk and bandits and clans all tapped the traders, and the restoration of princely authority involved making the clans stop it and also regulating city gate tolls. 

So- Argrath as quest-giver to my players' characters... but only after the Issaries player came to a boil as tolls on the Heortland Road ate up his business.  (It only took one game session of that to get him royally pisseed off, so he lobbied Argrath...) .   With effort and authority from Argratn,  the Adventurers  restored trade into the Holy Country as well as within Sartar.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
mostly spelling but some clarificaiton

[Squaredeal Sten]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

What do you do with the rest of the harvested grain, linen, or cabbages? We have heard about temple and city granaries. Do farmers keep considerable amounts of their harvests in their homes? .......

 

In their homes, or immediately adjacent to their homes.  Enough to live on until the next harvest.

Incidentally i have my doubts about whether the grain tithe applies to carrots, cabbages, other garden vegetables, many of which do not have a specific harvest date but are picked during a several-months-long ripening period.  The administrative burden involved in collecting a tithe on household production of tomatoes or okra would be impossible.

  Here are some images of traditional granaries: :

  https://www.shutterstock.com/search/the-ancient-granary

https://www.shutterstock.com/search/traditional-granary?cr=c&ds_ag=FF%3DDSA+-+All+Pages_AU%3DProspecting&ds_agid=58700003504592959&ds_cid=71700000027388020&ds_eid=700000001400310&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAvJarBhA1EiwAGgZl0IcDBsPVBUyQTmrke3qxDdG5j4Sm2bWJRW2V0DauxTAvOSTWAzfTExoC_60QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&kw=&pl=PPC_GOO_US_DSA-590706984705&utm_campaign=CO%3DUS_LG%3DEN_BU%3DIMG_AD%3DDSA_TS%3Dlggeneric_RG%3DAMER_AB%3DACQ_CH%3DSEM_OG%3DCONV_PB%3DGoogle&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=GOOGLE

[French Desperate WindChild]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

What do you do with the rest of the harvested grain, linen, or cabbages? We have heard about temple and city granaries. Do farmers keep considerable amounts of their harvests in their homes?

an interesting point.

Without any historical knowledge about that, I keep it simple :

there are two kind of people for this process

the producers (farmer, herder, but the same with smith...)

and the "traders" (could be merchants of course, but could be earth temple, guild, etc...)

 

in a clan village

the producers are focus on production, they will probably not spend (waste) time to manage a caravan to sell what the village will not consume.

The local business is based on barter. You , farmer, need whool from the herder to sew a new coat, if you have enough grain you trade it, if not you trade a debt and you will pay next harvest. Probably that's something you can plan "hey herder, next sheep sheering time, save XXX whool for me !"

some richer (or smarter) producers will build some little warehouse or granary but I think that what they can't use (for their own consumption or to trade with their neighbourhood) go to those who can trade and stock

 

you must to be "rich" (at least if you compare with a farmer) to be a trader. Because you have stock, and capital asset. So here the different traders I imagine we may meet:

 

the community trader (Earth temple,...) able to mobilise the community to build the granary or the warehouse and thanks to the tith, with people who have time to manage it, ant sell the stock

the merchant, rich enough to pay people to build (if not yet done) the warehouse and able to organize the "import / export" business outside of the clan. These tasks have two options

1) you have a shop and are able to stock what caravans of other merchants or itinerant salesmen propose when they come

2) you have a caravan (or more) that you can send outside to sell and buy

 

in a town it is a little bit different.

Customers may come to you. So a craftman may organize the business differently and have a shop-production building. Don't need to travel, there are enough customers to absorb your production *.

 

I don't know if a town have its own herders/farmers to get a part of  its consumption or delegate anything to the clans and village around it (so merchants and caravans are key). But if they have, I would see there are some "contract" with the herders/farmers for the vital production. Is it a monopoly (the town pay every one in services or money but every one cannot sell outside) or a promise to absorb a large part of the production ? It may depends on the leaders , the culture (Yelm monopoly versus Orlanth promise ?) etc...

 

 

* (from a process perspective of course, you may have a bad reputation, the town may have difficulties and customers not enough money etc...)

[Erol of Backford]

Was going to make a new thread but thought this is related... but seems that Sun County taxes are not based on what is produced but rather a preset amount?

Reading the old Sun County book, which I have always loved... who has calculated what tax would be levied on the depicted fields for say a Yelmalio acolyte who is now the "lord" of Rabbit Hat?

I get 675 loaves of bread or 7.5 bushels as the tax... 10% of the crop.

Forget the potential increased revenue for any underground stream and assuming some magical fertility stone boost say an acre gives 15 bushels (very high for ancient standards I am guessing) 

Based on the scale on the map and very loose internet searches I get about 5 acres of land totaling 75 bushels. If each bushels makes 90 one-pound loaves of whole wheat bread we'd have 6,750 loaves of bread. If on average a person eats 2lbs. a day of bread 294 days a year (I think - 5 x 56 plus 14) so say 3000 man-days of bread. Yes there will be meat, fish, nuts, vegetables and fruits added to this diet, of course.

Does it sound right that 1/2 an acre of wheat would support one person a year in Glorantha or do I have the yield all messed up?

It seems from the old notes there were about 60 - 75 persons living at Rabbit Hat, 35 refugees noted, (guessing) another 15 men killed or sold into slavery, 10 younger women taken as well?

https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/BellDigest/vol08sup02.txt

The planted fields as depicted would only support about 10 people for their daily bread intake allotment per year but likely I have it all wrong. If not it's a no wonder they started planting drug crops!? 

The shown fields planted need to be about 6 times the area or Gloranthian wheat needs to produces a lot more bushels per acre?

The way the scenario is worded it seems the tax is owed at a set amount regardless of the number of bushels or calfs, etc. the fief produces. If you are not a proficient hearder, farmer, whatever and you cannot meet the tax you will lose the property no? Forget nomads, broo, draught, pestilence, etc.

Any thoughts here?

 

Edited July 8 by Erol of Backford

[John Biles]

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Was going to make a new thread but thought this is related... but seems that Sun County taxes are not based on what is produced but rather a preset amount?

Reading the old Sun County book, which I have always loved... who has calculated what tax would be levied on the depicted fields for say a Yelmalio acolyte who is now the "lord" of Rabbit Hat?

I get 675 loaves of bread or 7.5 bushels as the tax... 10% of the crop.

Forget the potential increased revenue for any underground stream and assuming some magical fertility stone boost say an acre gives 15 bushels (very high for ancient standards I am guessing) 

Based on the scale on the map and very loose internet searches I get about 5 acres of land totaling 75 bushels. If each bushels makes 90 one-pound loaves of whole wheat bread we'd have 6,750 loaves of bread. If on average a person eats 2lbs. a day of bread 294 days a year (I think - 5 x 56 plus 14) so say 3000 man-days of bread. Yes there will be meat, fish, nuts, vegetables and fruits added to this diet, of course.

Do it sound right that 1/2 an acre of wheat would support one person a year in Glorantha or do I have the yield all messed up?

It seems from the old notes there were about 60 - 75 persons living at Rabbit Hat, 35 refugees noted, (guessing) another 15 men killed or sold into slavery, 10 younger women taken as well?

https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/BellDigest/vol08sup02.txt

The planted fields as depicted would only support about 10 people for their daily bread intake allotment per year but likely I have it all wrong. If not it's a no wonder they started planting drug crops!? 

The shown fields planted need to be about 6 t

Bronze age people ate about 1.04 pounds of bread a day or 380 pounds per year.  Adults need about 3 pounds of food a day to get by. 

They could produce 8-9 bushels of grain per acre in the real world, but they could work 20 to 40 acres per adult with hand tools and/or animal labor.

If we assume magic boosts that to 15 bushels an acre, then one person ought to be able to grow 300 bushels on a 20 acre lot, more on a larger one.

You should ignore the map as you can be sure the person who drew it did not think about these issues.

If we assume that half the population are working adults - let's say 30, and half of those grow grain on 30 acres each, those 15 people are growing 450 bushels each, so 6750 bushels total.  A bushel makes 90 loaves because there's other ingredients too (a bushel is only 60 pounds), so that's 607,500 loaves, far more than the village needs to eat (each Glorantha needs about 306 pounds of grain product a year, so the village eats up 18,360 loaves a year.

Because you have magically high yields, the village has a big surplus of bread.

The other 15 adults are growing the pound of veggies and seeing to everyone having meat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Malin]

John Biles did the math better than I could. I think it is important to remember both when it comes to maps and geography, that the fields depicted are only the fields grown closest to the village (which is the real focus of the map). There would be a lot more fields and grazing land spread out in the surrounding area. Nobody who sits down to do a map of a village or a stead will focus on the farmland, just the houses. The smallholder farm I grew up next to literally had one field next to the farm (and three grazing plots), the rest of the fields (and grazing land) were spread out over the surrounding countryside, separated by terrain not suitable for farming. Småland has almost as much stone in the way as the Sun County fringelands I bet (though a lot more forests).

EDIT: The grazing plots were grazing instead of grain because of a stream that ran through all three, making them very muddy and prone to flooding in the spring and autumn when planting takes place. Good drinking for the cattle in the summer, though. (The farm was named for the stream: Whitestream, and the place I grew up were called Streamwood)

Edited July 8 by Malin

[John Biles]

Here's another approach to this.

A hide is the land that one farmer can till in a year in the new rulebook.  That's a farmer teamed up with a spouse, effectively.  So this village can till 15 hides of land in the form of cropland, pasture, etc.  One hide produces a surplus of 80L before taxes.  If you assume a 10% tax rate, the lord gets 8L per hide, so 120L of taxes.  Another 10% is probably going to the Sundome and it gets 120 L from the hamlet.

 

 

[Memestream]

On 11/19/2023 at 3:42 AM, David Scott said:

Adventurer income is calculated from the Occupational Income table x Harvest modifier (if appropriate) - penalties (if appropriate) - cult tithes - Standard of living.

Holy smokes, I've been way too hard on my players! They've been dropping 10% of everything(per cult!) they've laid hands on down to the last clack in my games, no matter where it came from. That's not even accounting for their family members(near and far) hassling and guilt tripping them for money. 😳

[Manunancy]

On 7/10/2024 at 5:48 AM, Memestream said:

Holy smokes, I've been way too hard on my players! They've been dropping 10% of everything(per cult!) they've laid hands on down to the last clack in my games, no matter where it came from. That's not even accounting for their family members(near and far) hassling and guilt tripping them for money. 😳

No ned to refund them in cash - a repute for generosity amogst their cults and moochers (read that as family 🙂 ) is enough

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 7/10/2024 at 5:48 AM, Memestream said:

I've been way too hard on my players! They've been dropping 10% of everything(per cult!)

but... for adventurers.. if they are part of any community, they are expected to give back much more than the tithes

their occupational activities (farmers; herders, hunters, merchants etc...) give the 10% -per cult, for me -

but every thing they loot should be seized by offered to their community.

An iron weapon / armor ? the warriors temples will appreciate your gift.... Maybe you will get back once you are runelord but... if you are not yet qualified ? someone would be able to use it better than you... for the cult... of course you will understand.

An amount of coins ? How grateful will be the clan to, at last !, be able to build the new olympic swimming pool  the material needed to consolidate the mine ! The mine will take your name for that, we will praise your names in tommorow's fest ! don't thank me, it is normal to organize a party in your honor

etc... etc... etc...

 

[mfbrandi]

21 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

But every thing they loot should be seized by offered to their community. An iron weapon/armour? The warriors temples will appreciate your gift.

Have the adventurers stopped looting and brought the “dungeon economy” to a grinding halt?