gloranthan gladiators

[French Desperate WindChild]

Where can I (as a gloranthan visitor) find any gladiators "show" ?

And depending on the location/culture, is there any difference about rules, death, weapons, warriors (free, slave, murderers or any other big criminals) ? Is it only a show or a religious sacrifice ?

Knowing only about roman gladiators, I have probably some bias. So any cultural explanation will be welcomed 🙂

 

by the way, I read a lot of timesabout the dart competition but in fact without understanding what is the competition.. I imagine it as a formal fight (like gladiators) but I may completely miss the point.

 

And, last question, is there any material about it (JC or elsewhere) ?

[g33k]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

...

by the way, I read a lot of timesabout the dart competition but in fact without understanding what is the competition.. I imagine it as a formal fight (like gladiators) but I may completely miss the point.

...

As I Understand It:
There was a time -- long ago -- when a very "tournament-like" Dart Competition was held by upper echelons of Lunar society.  It was much like an archery tournament (i.e. aimed at targets not competitors -- small targets, moving targets, etc).

At one of those events, one noble "accidentally" hit a rival, and killed him.  The victim's family struck back not long after -- using a Dart as the weapon, to make the message clear -- and (as such vengence-fueled exchanges do) the violence continued -- usually with Darts in the style of the formal competition.

Other noble families -- never ones to be left behind when new fashions arise -- began to get in on the action.

And centuries later, it still continues.

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Where can I (as a gloranthan visitor) find any gladiators "show" ?

And depending on the location/culture, is there any difference about rules, death, weapons, warriors (free, slave, murderers or any other big criminals) ? Is it only a show or a religious sacrifice ?

Knowing only about roman gladiators, I have probably some bias. So any cultural explanation will be welcomed 🙂

[...] And, last question, is there any material about it (JC or elsewhere) ?

FURTHEST: Crown Jewel of Lunar Tarsh has several pages about gladiatorial spectacles held at the Moirasseum of Furthest, including ten gladiatorial styles (all illustrated, Usborne-style: five local, five from Glamour), two rival gladiator schools, and a bunch of noble sponsors. The cover art depicts the Blood Rites of Hon-eel after the fashion of Gérôme's Pollice Verso (the painting Ridley Scott used to sell Gladiator to the studio), and there's an external view of the Moirasseum by Philip McDonnell inside the book (although you'll hardly notice it behind the statue of Phat Hon-eel).

Edited November 22, 2023 by Nick Brooke

[Nick Brooke]

A ROUGH GUIDE TO GLAMOUR describes the Monster Coliseum on page 17 (illustrated by Simon Bray). The Mortal Gladiatorial Contests are held in Earth Season, "a popular favourite with sports fans."

LIFE OF MOONSON, BOOK ONE includes the masked gladiator "Hunter" and mentions his nemesis, the Tentacled Gladiator.

A poster in the entrance passage of the Insula from CITIZENS advertises the Big Fight between Maximus and The Khan, but that happened a while back. The residents are more into chariot-racing, anyway: "COME ON, THE BLUES!!!" (Not to mention the resident who's into illegal Street Racing: "Go, Greased Lightning," and all that.) 

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

At one of those events, one noble "accidentally" hit a rival, and killed him. 

And the name of that competitor was Orlanth...

[soltakss]

In my Glorantha, there are gladiatorial contests at Tourney Altar, but they are more about challenging other combatants.

The Ten Tests might be a form of Gladiatorial Contests, or might have them as part of the tests.

Hon Eel's Rites might involve gladiators fighting and their blood feeding the crops.

The Blood Sun, I think, had gladiatorial contests.

Gaining entry into Ralzakark's Broo Legion involved gladiatorial contests, with the victors joining the Legion, in my Dorastor.

 

[Zit]

Le Maître des Runes, French supplement for RQ3 by Oriflam (no clue if it was a translation of an English original nor if it can be found anywhere now). Tu ne devrais pas avoir de problème pour le lire 🙂

[David Scott]

13 hours ago, Zit said:

Le Maître des Runes, French supplement for RQ3 by Oriflam (no clue if it was a translation of an English original nor if it can be found anywhere now). Tu ne devrais pas avoir de problème pour le lire 🙂

It was a mashup of Avalon Hill publications, with a new adventure: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/oriflam/le-maitre-des-runes-1998fr/

[Erol of Backford]

Slightly off topic but would the Lunars have feed humans to animals in the Monster Coliseum for entertainment and if so would they have been from anywhere pending who was at war with them at the time?

Seems to me the Lunars, especially those relating to the blood corn or Shargash would always be interested in getting the blood?

Add the Bat and you have an insatiable need for blood to feed various elements of the Empire?

On 11/22/2023 at 8:12 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

Is it only a show or a religious sacrifice?

Guessing its for both and more depending on where the combat is being conducted and how, the participants?

[radmonger]

i doubt the lunars as such would waste good bat-food. All gladiators, including those participating in the hon-eel rites, are volunteers. Professional gladiators generally try to avoid the Hon-Eel rites, in which the loser dies and is not resurrected. But that is an honorable and respected death, if you live long enough to start to get slow.

Note that as i understand it, the city of Alkoth, run by the cult of shargash, is legally part of the underworld. if so, it may not be technically part of the lunar empire. Which in any case is not going to unwisely interfere in what it's denizens get up to.

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Slightly off topic but would the Lunars have feed humans to animals in the Monster Coliseum for entertainment and if so would they have been from anywhere pending who was at war with them at the time?

animals, chaos monsters, vampires, ... a lot of thing are entertainment. but it may depends on the culture (I agree with lunars, but is there Orlanthi culture of gladiators ?

Is death an option or always the outcome ? Who choose (the crowd, the leader, the priest, some judges...) Are gladiators just casual volunteers or professionals, trained slaves,. etc.. or rebels as a solution for hungry lions, a lot of options are possible)

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Add the Bat and you have an insatiable need for blood to feed various elements of the Empire?

In my opinion not the bat. It is not a show, she is too big, too dangerous. Anyone, even lunars (still imo) would try to avoid her. but les powerful chaotic individuals yes.

Are seshnegi happy to see some gladiators ? maybe not to death, except if they are "renegade" or heretic ?)

What about the far east ? ...

so a lot of questions and answers may be different (participants, reasons, conclusion) depending on the locals

Don't know 🙂

[David Scott]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:12 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

Where can I (as a gloranthan visitor) find any gladiators "show" ?

The Guide says:

• Chen Durel 266, 290
• Lunar Empire - sidebar 298, 299, 304, 305, 309, 726 (note the chaos gladiators)

Edited November 27, 2023 by David Scott

[Joerg]

Dara Happa has had gladiatoral games ever since Emperor Elmexdros, with blood (not necessarily lives) shed for the glory of the emperor and his war gods.

[Nick Brooke]

At the risk of stating the bloody obvious, OF COURSE the Lunar Empire is currently throwing White Moonie martyrs to the lions (and worse) in the Monster Coliseum. Did you even need to ask?

(If your brain is consumed with an irrational hatred for tubers, you will already have dropped this notion, if only because it makes it seem that is sometimes useful to draw analogies between the Lunar Empire and the Roman Empire, while you enjoy pretending that it isn't. But for the rest of us, it's there: have fun!)

Edited November 27, 2023 by Nick Brooke

[Erol of Backford]

10 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

In my opinion not the bat.

Sorry, wasn't suggesting the Bat was part of the entertainment, just added to the Lunars' ravenous need for slaves, some which would be sacrificed religiously, for food or as entertainment?

[JRE]

Not really gladiatorial, but most Malkioni areas which are not at war, and a few that are at war, will have tournaments of all kinds, which depending on the rules work more or less as gladiatorial entertainments. It also makes all those idle soldiers in peacetime useful to keep the peasants happy they are not the ones being hit.

We already know about Kustria's Great Tournament, and that implies that Seshnela used to be big on tournaments as well. In the same way as the Lunar gladiators, the Castle Coast is practically shouting for frequent tournaments between castles or open to all-comers. Ralians also will be keen on them, if only due to the Kustrian example. I assume stylized tournaments are used in Loskalm for advancement, but I do not spend too much time thinking about Fronela. Carmania is a good candidate, but there I play the subvert expectations card and play as they lacking egalitarian individual tournaments, but set up melees between rival cults or nobles, and hazars massacring animals or upstart rebels in a similar way to what happens in the Heartlands

I am playing that the current Rokari church is not so keen on tournaments, but the nobles will not let them take away their fun. I have separate events for soldiers and nobles, but some events do allow General melee style fights where a soldier may face a noble, which is not a problem as long as it is not their noble, as that prepares them for war. Most tournaments are not to the death, and wizards will be around to heal most serious wounds, but misfortune and a few deliberate accidents will still happen.

In many orlanthi lands, Humakti duels will be considered as entertainment as well.

[French Desperate WindChild]

45 minutes ago, JRE said:

Not really gladiatorial, but most Malkioni areas which are not at war, and a few that are at war, will have tournaments of all kinds

yep it was my idea too (and i like your tournament background by the way) however I fear if I have the bias of "medieval west" previous version (I disliked it but was impregnated/corrupted)

so don't know if it is still the case ?

46 minutes ago, JRE said:

In many orlanthi lands, Humakti duels will be considered as entertainment as well.

yes entertainment but more by "opportunity" -2 humakti have a "serious" reason to duel, not to entertain the people. I imagine there is not a ufc-like organization that every week/season/xxx propose a meeting with 3 or 4 humakti duel. I see them more like some bushido code, you duel with your cult-mate to solve a question of honor (yours, your clan's if you are its champion, ...)

So for me Humakti duel, if people will come, it is more because a word-of-mouth will say that tomorrow Foo and Bar will fight because Bar told that Foo's sword was not enough shiny to please his god. Not because there is a poster campaign to annouce what artists will fight in the usual arena for the well established summer championship

 

 

[JRE]

I assume Humakti temples hold frequent duels. Otherwise, how can the temple know who is better suited to be a Sword? Initiates duel initiates, Swords duel Swords to see who will become High Sword. With Gloranthan healing magic and probably agreements not to use powerful rune magic (except in grudge duels to the death), it is hard to kill someone outright, and Swords have divine intervention available. So Humakti holy days are like big game days or troll ball days.

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 hours ago, JRE said:

I assume Humakti temples hold frequent duels. Otherwise, how can the temple know who is better suited to be a Sword? Initiates duel initiates, Swords duel Swords to see who will become High Sword. With Gloranthan healing magic and probably agreements not to use powerful rune magic (except in grudge duels to the death), it is hard to kill someone outright, and Swords have divine intervention available. So Humakti holy days are like big game days or troll ball days.

so more "demonstration", "open training" (duel in the sense two single opponents) when I understood duel as fight to solve some offence.

yes why not. Now is it open to the public ? I don't see Humakti as the best entertainers 😛 but maybe one or two days per year/season, to spark some vocation (join the cult, or buy some training sessions)

[Erol of Backford]

On 11/28/2023 at 10:18 AM, JRE said:

In many orlanthi lands, Humakti duels will be considered as entertainment as well.

I'd stage some sort of early Western tournaments in Nochet? Maybe they could be tournaments with some of the same events as the Tournament of Luck and Death... whatever they might be?

Would there have been an Holy Country "Olympics" of sorts that have gladiatorial or tournament events?

I had to post this:

I, the Lord of the World, know that I am going to be taken away. I shall not return for the years of a generation, and to prepare for that return I have devised this document. Here is the critical material at the heart of this dear world. I ask you, my household and soul mates, to copy and distribute this, to help it get into my hands upon my eventual return. The purpose of Life is to seek the Great Mystery.

signed,
Belintar, 12 Storm, 1612 ST
Son of the Apple 112,612 YS
Lord of the Harshax

https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/WorldofGlorantha/2010/12171.html

[Akhôrahil]

On 12/1/2023 at 1:43 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Would there have been an Holy Country "Olympics" of sorts that have gladiatorial or tournament events?I

I could easily see something that’s not the MOLAD but inspired by the format. Like modern Olympics to the classical ones.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

Given Belintar's Proximate Holy Realm, I would be astonished not to find a Kargan Tor athletics arena in his City of Wonders. Quite a lot of features from the Celestial Court would have been reflected in Belintar's magical architecture, quite probably with contributions from Panaxles and Sestarto.

[Erol of Backford]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Kargan Tor athletics arena

So it's something more than a hippodrome. I'd say most cities with 8-10k would have some sort of arena thing for sports and training... many of our ancient cities did.

So what does everyone feel a Kargan Tor area would have been like?

Nochet surely has one, even if it doesn't, as would most large cities.

 The stadium at Aphrodisias pictured below is similar to one discussed in the article linked below.

https://newscenter.sdsu.edu/sdsu_newscenter/news_story.aspx?sid=71837

 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Nochet surely has one, even if it doesn't, as would most large cities.

Nothing inside the city, but they do run races (even horse races) through the city streets on festival days (horse race like the Palio of Siena).

For open field races, I expect Nochetites use the old covered-up ruins of Forenes across the river. 

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

would have some sort of arena thing for sports and training... many of our ancient cities did.

Don't really need arenas for such events unless it has become particularly formalized (e.g. you don't really see too much evidence until classical Greece and Rome, if I recall correctly). In Glorantha, this seems to be evolving/developing with the blood rites of the Lunars in Furthest and Glamour.

[Erol of Backford]

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

blood rites of the Lunars in Furthest and Glamour

Again the evil corrupt late stage capitalism Roman Empire emerges, Chaosium/Coliseum... lots of games to appease the  masses in Furthest and more so Glamour.