The Design Mechanism and the Future of RuneQuest

[KingSkin]

In my not-at-all-humble opinion, I would say that the best way to do initiative would be to base who gets to initiate an action just on speed (mind, body, skill) and then take into account things like SIZ and weapon length when deciding what he can do with his initiative. That is, the combatant with the sword may have initiative on the combatant with the spear, but the fact that the spear is longer presents an obstacle the swordsman has to get around to do something.

I'd have to agree with much of this. Certainly weapon length is useful for keeping an opponent at bay but broadly rolling that into initiative is an extra level of abstraction. When it comes to talking about pure speed of action/reaction natural reflexes play a role but more important is muscle-memory. Someone who has repeated the same movements over and over doesn't need to factor in their thinking time as it's their body carrying out the motion automatically without the need for conscious thought on how to do it. The brain only needs to initiate the 'attack' or 'parry' command and the body then takes over. That's why martial arts use katas and armies drill soldiers repeatedly in doing the same thing over and over.

To me that suggests that skill level should also be factored into Initiative if you're going for absolute realism. As to how much that comes down to an argument of natural ability Vs experience and training.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Reach is a definite advantage in fencing, so I expect it comes into other weapon types, too. Remember that a lot of those RQ rules are based on re-enactment combat, so they're not just theoretical. But I agree that skill outweight physical facters, at least in my experience.

Here's a thought: what if you don't have any kind of initiative? Everyone attacks, parries, defends. Everything depends on your skill - the better man wins. Anyone tried this? Not sure how I'd resolve multiple attacks (hey, this just popped into my head, give me a minute).

[KingSkin]

Reach is an advantage in any combat but whether or not is should be tied into initiative is another question. With a spear for instance, if someone gets past the head then your weapon is far less useful.

As to the no-initiative stuff, the Karma system (by Bards and Sages) does this. My group's using it at the moment. Basically everyone declares their actions then rolls and tells the GM their results. Opposed actions are compared on a success Vs failure basis (and then degree of success is factored in if both succeed) and the GM interprets the results. It works pretty well but does require a decent GM who can hold a fair amount of stuff in his head at a time. I do like it though and it certainly ends all the initiative arguments that can bog a game down.

Multiple attacks are handled by giving a negative modifier to all attacks by a character. If the person they're attacking beats all their rolls then all attacks fail, if one rolls higher than the defender then only one hits. You can also split attacks. Last time I did this I tossed a mace in the face of one attacker and stepped in to take a sword swing at another. Both rolls (after modifiers) beat the relevant defender's rolls and so they both got hit. It works quite well but I could see some GMs not getting on with it at all and also some players really disliking the lack of initiative. I'd be willing to bet however, that a new player with no prior experience of initiative systems would find it simple and intuitive and I doubt they'd ever consider there could be another way of handling it.

[Smoking Frog]

Reach is an advantage in any combat but whether or not is should be tied into initiative is another question. With a spear for instance, if someone gets past the head then your weapon is far less useful.

I would think that the spear is/was the all-time most popular weapon because it is the easiest to use, and having some reach with a pointy end gives even an inexperienced man some confidence when going into battle. But against a more skillful opponent, I would expect that the length advantage could be easily neutralized or even turned against the spearman.

If you don't need to worry about penetrating armor, the flexibility of a staff, whether quarter-staff, bo, or jo, makes them extremely effective because they can be employed at varying distances, which gives the wielder some nice options for dispatching an opponent.

[fulk]

Here's a thought: what if you don't have any kind of initiative? Everyone attacks, parries, defends. Everything depends on your skill - the better man wins.

That would be called Pendragon (possibly my favorite RPG of all time). In Pendragon, each combatant rolls a d20. Whoever rolls highest, but under his skill level, wins and does damage to the other combatant. If you 'lose' (rolled lower than your opponent) but were successful (rolled under your skill level), you get to block some damage with your shield. No initiative. Very fast combat. There are various modifiers for speficic weapons.

[rust]

I would think that the spear is/was the all-time most popular weapon because it is the easiest to use, and having some reach with a pointy end gives even an inexperienced man some confidence when going into battle. But against a more skillful opponent, I would expect that the length advantage could be easily neutralized or even turned against the spearman.

If you don't need to worry about penetrating armor, the flexibility of a staff, whether quarter-staff, bo, or jo, makes them extremely effective because they can be employed at varying distances, which gives the wielder some nice options for dispatching an opponent.

A skilled spearman was trained to use his spear much like a quarterstaff with a point at one end.

[Aini]

In my not-at-all-humble opinion, I would say that the best way to do initiative would be to base who gets to initiate an action just on speed (mind, body, skill) and then take into account things like SIZ and weapon length when deciding what he can do with his initiative. That is, the combatant with the sword may have initiative on the combatant with the spear, but the fact that the spear is longer presents an obstacle the swordsman has to get around to do something.

Having done fencing in my time I do not believe intelligence plays any part beyond retaining the knowledge (which imo would simply be the skill % in game terms) Having a high IQ myself I was able to 'pick up' fencing quite fast in relation to some of the others however i am only 5'3" and there is a guy there who is 6'6" who has a serious advantage when it came to sparring against one another. I had to go two steps to his one when it came to footwork so it is not simply down to reach. That said when it comes to weapon length and reach and such it becomes less and less relevant as the skill on the practitioners rise, and that is also true also in BRP

Whilst i disagree on including INT in the mix on initiative, i do agree on weapon skill perhaps playing more of a part. (If i was to implement the weapon skill playing a part i would likely have certain % on skill lowering the weapons SR by 1 or maybe 2)

[PhilHibbs]

Whilst i disagree on including INT in the mix on initiative, i do agree on weapon skill perhaps playing more of a part. (If i was to implement the weapon skill playing a part i would likely have certain % on skill lowering the weapons SR by 1 or maybe 2)

Initiative is a simple mechanic for a broad set of situations - part of it is realising that a fight is about to happen.

[Aini]

Initiative is a simple mechanic for a broad set of situations - part of it is realising that a fight is about to happen.

Personally i have never had any surprise/initiative mechanic in my games and never found them necessary because i always use the SR system. But 'realising a fight is about to happen' should not really take any difference in time between someone with an IQ of 80 or 160. The the thought process difference would most likely be in miliseconds, The differences in reaction speed would really come from training, being alert... naturally fast reaction (DEX) The SR system covers this fine imo.

[PhilHibbs]

Personally i have never had any surprise/initiative mechanic in my games and never found them necessary because i always use the SR system.

I was a little surprised (pni) to see initiative appear in MRQ2, but with the radically different system of CAs compared to Strike Ranks I think it needs something to figure who goes first. Weapon size is no longer factored in.

[Smoking Frog]

Initiative is a simple mechanic for a broad set of situations - part of it is realising that a fight is about to happen.

That is definitely one reason to roll INT into initiative; combat actions include deciding to run, deciding to leap around, change weapons, and other things that represent evaluating the best of multiple options. Also, if you have a game with spell casters who have high INT but only indifferent DEX, it puts them on better footing with the high DEX types.

If two people are close enough that they can step and strike (like no more than weapon-distance apart), I would think that weapon skill would be the overwhelming factor in who got to act first.

[SDLeary]

A skilled spearman was trained to use his spear much like a quarterstaff with a point at one end

A skilled spearman who was trained to use his spear two-handed MAY have been taught to use his spear like a quarterstaff. In the West, skilled greek Hoplite, probably not. Republican or Late Roman Legionary or migration German, probably not.

The two instances that I recall that are not Late Medieval or Renaissance in nature, that might have used their spears like pointy quarterstaffs, are the Gaulic/Celtic Gaesate, and the Vikings with their "Hewing" spear.

Now, I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense to use a spear in that way, just that there is no real evidence in the West until we begin to have the fighting manuals of the Renaissance.

SDLeary

Edited July 21, 2011 by SDLeary

[KingSkin]

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that spear-users would have had to rely on something other than the business end in times of desperation but whether it was part of military doctrine and consequently something they actually practiced is another matter.

Again it comes down to how much of a factor skill should play in determining Initiative and even what you can do when you act. If you wanted the extra detail you could work out skill bands for each weapon class and give extra abilities for higher levels. So, for spears you could have something like:

01 - 25: Basic proficiency, no bonus

26 - 50: 1 'free' Parry per round

51 - 75: +1 to Opponent's SR when they attack you

76 - 100: +/- 20 to Hit Location (your choice) when attacking

Obviously games that allow skills above 100 could add in more spectacular 'epic level' abilities in the higher bands.

[Mankcam]

Just aside from all this weapon-talk, I'ld just want to put a request in for RQ6 being a hardcover. I loved MRQ2's beautiful leather-like cover. Something like this, or perhaps with evocative artwork. Internal artwork should also be reasonable quality, and the fonts need to be clear. The BRP BGB wins out over RQ2's fonts and internal layout, it just seemed more clear and less 'flimsy' somehow. No paperback corebooks please - we'll pay the extra rupees for the hardcovers, and its almost an industry standard now, at least for the main rulebooks.

Please keep the bulk of the MRQ2 rules, they seem to work well.

Hit locations over general HP are a must, they keep the game more tactile, and perhaps the hit location chart could be tweaked to be even more specific (ie: feet, shin/calfs, thighs, hands, forearms, upper arms, chest/shoulderblades, abdomen, groin/buttocks, jaws, cheek, neck, temples etc, or something like this). The game would certainly play a little more differently than BRP, otherwise you might as well play BRP with the Hit Location Option instead. It might play a bit more gritty, more 'Gladiator/Beowulf' than 'Lord of the Rings'...

Edited July 21, 2011 by Mankcam

[PhilHibbs]

Obviously games that allow skills above 100 could add in more spectacular 'epic level' abilities in the higher bands.

Not all BRPs are created equally. In Elric!, 100% was considered the threshold for professional level of competency, not epic or heroic. For instance I would rate my skill in Computer Programming at around 150% in the Elric! system. When I started at age 20 I was probably at 75%.

[Mugen]

That is definitely one reason to roll INT into initiative; combat actions include deciding to run, deciding to leap around, change weapons, and other things that represent evaluating the best of multiple options.

It depends on how you define INT, actually.

One can have a very quick mind, able to make decisions and have poor results in any "intellectual" subjects.

Generally, in BRP high INT is given to scientists or scholars, not to top-ranking football players or feline barbarians

Actually, trying to think in a situation where you have to act quickly can be a bad thing.

[rust]

Actually, trying to think in a situation where you have to act quickly can be a bad thing.

Well, acting quickly without thinking first is also not exactly a general recipe for success ...

[PhilHibbs]

Generally, in BRP high INT is given to scientists or scholars, not to top-ranking football players or feline barbarians

Initiative isn't just about physical activity, it's also about how fast you can cast a spell. It's a simple mechanic for all situations, so of course you'll find situations where it isn't perfect. The pre-errata rules say to figure SIZ into the SR calculation, which would have led to tall sorcerors being quicker at casting spells than short sorcerors.

[Al.]

The pre-errata rules say to figure SIZ into the SR calculation, which would have led to tall sorcerors being quicker at casting spells than short sorcerors.

Even more amusing than that old chap since Siz describes mass, it would mean fat sorcerers being faster than thin ones. So it's be a good algorithm for the discworld at least.

[icebrand]

Well, acting quickly without thinking first is also not exactly a general recipe for success ...

At least in judo if you think you pretty much lose your chance. I guess any sport with timing is the same!

[PhilHibbs]

At least in judo if you think you pretty much lose your chance. I guess any sport with timing is the same!

That's the main reason I can't play the piano or the guitar - my brain won't shut up and let my fingers get on with it.

[Redcrow]

At least in judo if you think you pretty much lose your chance. I guess any sport with timing is the same!

This was more or less my experience in various tournament MA's. You think about the moves quite alot during training and practice until you've repeated them 10,000 times and after that it becomes an automatic muscle memory response.

[rust]

At least in judo if you think you pretty much lose your chance. I guess any sport with timing is the same!

Yes and no. In my experience with rapier fencing the defensive actions are more

or less "automated", but the offensive actions usually still require a little thought

to choose the right maneuver for the situation and the specific opponent, becau-

se an "automated attack" all too often is a predictable one, and a predictable ma-

neuver usually means a lost fight. Many martial arts which are more on the side of

sports have this problem to a somewhat lesser degree, because the rules limit the

choice of allowed maneuvers, but combat fencing does not have any rules at all.

[icebrand]

By the way, i just came back from my training (bad day)

I was about to go home and a karate retard poked at me, i snapped and ended up in a real fight. By the time i actually came to my senses it already ended :S

[Mugen]

At least in judo if you think you pretty much lose your chance. I guess any sport with timing is the same!

This is also true for improvisational theater.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Mugen