The Inequity of EDU

[LivingTriskele]

Professional skill points determined normally without the EDU Characteristic

Normal: 250 pts for professional skills

Heroic: 325 pts for professional skills

Epic: 400 pts for professional skills

Superhuman: 500 for to professional skills

With EDU multipliers are:

Normal 20 x EDU (20 x an average EDU of 10 = 200 pts for professional skills)

Heroic 25 x EDU (25 x an average EDU of 10 = 250 pts for professional skills)

Epic 30 x EDU (30 x an average EDU of 10 = 300 pts for professional skills)

Superhuman 40 x EDU (40 x an average EDU of 10 = 400 pts for professional skills)

In a campaign that uses the optional EDU Characteristic, a character must have an EDU of about 13 to get approximately the same amount of professional skill points as a character generated for a campaign that does not use EDU.

Normal: 250 (20 x 12.5 EDU = 250 pts for professional skills)

Heroic: 325 (25 x 13 EDU = 325 pts for professional skills)

Epic: 400 (30 x 13.33 EDU = 399.90 pts for professional skills)

Superhuman: 500 (40 x 12.5 EDU = 500 pts for professional skills)

In a campaign that uses both EDU AND the point buy system to generate Characteristics, a player must spend 9 of his/her points to have an EDU of 13 (and thus gain the same amount of professional skill points as characters in campaigns that do not use EDU). For a normal campaign this leaves 15 points to spend on the remaining Characteristics.

Normal: 24 points to purchase Characteristics

Heroic: 36 points to purchase Characteristics

Epic: 48 points to purchase Characteristics

Superhuman: 60 points to purchase Characteristics

I can see two possible solutions for this problem:

1) Get rid of the multiplier to EDU entirely and just use the regular professional skill point values as if EDU is not being used (250, 325, 400, and 500 respectively).

2) Give the players an extra 9 points for purchasing characteristics so that they can begin play with an EDU of 13 (if they want to) and therefore have an equal amount of skill points as characters in campaigns not using EDU. The issue with this second option is that players may want to use this extra 9 points to purchase Characteristics other than EDU (something I’m fine with).

I’m curious if anyone else has given this any thought, or if anyone has even read this far…

Edited August 18, 2011 by LivingTriskele

[Chorpa]

I don't really see the problem. EDU is an optional stat and if you don't think it works as it should. Don't use EDU at all!

[LivingTriskele]

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not complaining. I'm trying to improve upon the system. This is an inconsistency that I think is worth being addressed. I actually do use EDU and already have a solution for the problem (that works for me). I'm just wondering if anyone else has considered this. I'm looking for constructive responses from people who are interested in improving the core mechanics of the game and clarifying inconsistencies and typos in the book.

[rust]

I do not see a major problem there. While the character indeed gets less skill points for his

professional skills when using EDU, he also gets the Knowledge roll to represent his general

knowledge about almost every possible subject. With an EDU of 13 this gives the character

a chance of 65 % to know at least a little about whatever comes up, and in the long run this

seems far more valuable than a few more skill points would have been. To give the character

both more skill points and the Knowledge roll would seem too much of a good thing to me.

[Chorpa]

I do not see a major problem there. While the character indeed gets less skill points for his

professional skills when using EDU, he also gets the Knowledge roll to represent his general

knowledge about almost every possible subject. With an EDU of 13 this gives the character

a chance of 65 % to know at least a little about whatever comes up, and in the long run this

seems far more valuable than a few more skill points would have been. To give the character

both more skill points and the Knowledge roll would seem too much of a good thing to me.

Was just about to say the same. EDU 10 gives knowledge roll of 50% and 200 skill points. Without EDU you would get 250 points but have to spend 50 points on Academic Lore to get the same type of Knowledge Roll as you would get automatic from EDU. So in the end it evens itself out.

[LivingTriskele]

I think the Know Roll is very useful for determining trivial basic knowledge but it shouldn't take the place of a specialized Knowledge Skill. A successful Know roll might give a PC a vague idea about something, while a successful Skill roll would allow for more detailed information. I think it's more of a tool for the GM to keep the game going when the PCs get in a bind... I don't see (yet) how it makes since that having a Know roll justifies having less skill points. Characters get an Idea roll for free which is just as useful.

But the more pertinent issue to me is the EDU Characteristic and how it interacts with the point buy system. Adding another Characteristic as important as EDU without increasing the points to purchase Characteristics means that players have to spend more points to gain a similar amount of professional skill points. Try making an archetypal "fighter" using the point buy system with and without EDU:

Method 1 (without EDU being used) the character starts with 250 skill points to spend on melee skills

Method 2 (with EDU being used) the character starts with 200 skill points to spend on melee skills if he/she leaves EDU at a base level of 10. If this player wants an equal amount of skill points he/she has to raise EDU, which means less points to spend on STR DEX and CON.

[fulk]

It seem perfectly reasonable that if you increase the number of characteristics, you would increase the points used to buy characteristics. Just don't abuse the Knowledge rolls.

F

[rust]

Whether it makes sense to use EDU or not probably depends a lot on genre, setting and

campaign. For example, in my science fiction water world setting I have about two dozen

Knowledge, Science and Technology skills, and EDU and the Knowledge roll give the cha-

racters a chance to deal with the basic, general knowledge of all those skills without ha-

ving to spend skill points on all of them. On the other hand, in a combat oriented fantasy

campaign where only a couple of combat skills are really important, and these skills need

to be as high as possible to keep the characters alive, EDU and the Knowledge roll would

certainly make less sense.

As for the Idea roll, it cannot replace the Knowledge roll. To give an example from my set-

ting, the question "How deep can a dolphin dive ?" is something an aquafarmer could know

without the relevant skill, while "How far can a dolphin hear into the infrasonic range ?" is

a question which requires a skill like Science (Marine Biology) - but no amount of Intelligen-

ce would enable a character to answer one of those questions with an Idea roll without ha-

ving the informations.

Edited August 18, 2011 by rust

[LivingTriskele]

I agree with that. But the campaign setting I'm working on is both combat heavy and has a lot of Knowledge-based skills (dark half-modern fantasy with clockwork wonders, steam energy and eldritch secrets) so I need to be able to allow for both types.

Just to clarify, I love BRP and am not bashing it. But I see a lot areas where the text could be tightened up. I'd like to see a 2nd edition some day and I've made it a sort of personal quest to expose the areas of the Big Golden Book that don't really make since to me (so that when/if Chaosium does begin work on a second edition they'll have some fan-based suggestions and observations regarding improvements). I know that not everyone is going to agree with what I think is important, but no one has too--one of the cool things about BRP is that it's so customizable.

[Atgxtg]

I don't see an inequity here, becuase if EDU is used in a campaign, all the characters will have an EDU stat, and thus have a level playing field. As long as you don't mix characters with EDU with those without EDU there is no problem.

But, I could see raiing the EDU score for modern anf future characters. The EDU score was orginally for CoC, and dealth with characters set in the 1920s, when most people did not have a full High School education. So the 3D6 roll was fine. With 1 point of EDU equal to one year of formal educiation, rasing the roll to 2D6+6 or 3D6+3 would probably be a better fit.

[rust]

But, I could see raiing the EDU score for modern anf future characters. The EDU score was orginally for CoC, and dealth with characters set in the 1920s, when most people did not have a full High School education. So the 3D6 roll was fine. With 1 point of EDU equal to one year of formal educiation, rasing the roll to 2D6+6 or 3D6+3 would probably be a better fit.

In my setting mentioned above EDU depends on the character's profession. The minimum for all

characters is 12, the equivalent of a BA or BSc degree is 15, the equivalent of a MA or MSc de-

gree is 18, and the equivalent of a doctorate is 21. Therefore an engineer has a minimum EDU of

18, and a medical doctor has a minimum EDU of 21.

[LivingTriskele]

I don't see an inequity here, becuase if EDU is used in a campaign, all the characters will have an EDU stat, and thus have a level playing field. As long as you don't mix characters with EDU with those without EDU there is no problem.

This is one way of looking at it. But the fact remains that incorporating EDU with the Characteristic point-buy system creates a loss (comparatively) in either professional skill points or Characteristics, even though campaign type (normal, heroic etc.) remains the same.

[Atgxtg]

I

This is one way of looking at it. But the fact remains that incorporating EDU with the Characteristic point-buy system creates a loss (comparatively) in either professional skill points or Characteristics, even though campaign type (normal, heroic etc.) remains the same.

Yup. So what? BRP is a mish-mash of RQ/CoC/Worlds of Wonder/Strombringer/Hawkmoon/etc. Once you start mixing in various aspects you change the balance of various factors.

It's not nearly as significant as hit locations, skill category modifiers, or most of the other options.

I think this would be more important if it afffected the blance of power somehow, but it doesn't. if we were using a common setting and stats or BRP were lvel based, then Id'd agree with you. But the way BRP works, it really doesn't matter much. It is like if you had a ouserule where everybody got 50 more skill points. It isn7t a problem, since it applies to everbody.

[Atgxtg]

In my setting mentioned above EDU depends on the character's profession. The minimum for all

characters is 12, the equivalent of a BA or BSc degree is 15, the equivalent of a MA or MSc de-

gree is 18, and the equivalent of a doctorate is 21. Therefore an engineer has a minimum EDU of

18, and a medical doctor has a minimum EDU of 21.

I7m not sure I agree with that. Grocery clerks could have an education. At least in the U.S. Since getting a higher education in the U.S. is largerly a matter of spending money, we have a lot of people with some college education but no career.

Plus, not everybody who has the same level of Education have the same EDU score. Some of the people I went to school with sat in the same class and got the same intrstction, but they didn't learn as much as I did. And some learned more. I can see EDU varying a bit from the 1 point per year baseline.

[rust]

As mentioned, these are minimum scores. An aquafarmer could of course have an EDU of 20+,

but a doctor could not have an EDU below 21 - otherwise he would not have passed the test

and would not have made it to the colony.

[LivingTriskele]

You can definitely make a house-rule and fix the issue no problem. That’s not really my point. Bottom line is, the EDU combination with the point buy system has the issue I’ve already addressed (no need going over that again). It’s an unnecessary inconsistency. With a minor adjustment characters created with and without EDU could be on an equal playing field.

As an aside, personally, I think it does affect the balance of power if you plan to say, write an adventure for publication with a specific campaign power level. Heroic characters without EDU and built upon the point buy system will be more powerful than those with.

[fulk]

I don't see an inequity here, becuase if EDU is used in a campaign, all the characters will have an EDU stat, and thus have a level playing field. As long as you don't mix characters with EDU with those without EDU there is no problem.

It isn't 'unequal' true, since all characters are in the same boat. BUT, if the point buy system was designed without EDU, adding a characteristic means lower attributes across the board since the player must spread them across more attributes. Mechanistically it makes sense to raise the points available to maintain the same averages for the characteristics.

F

[vagabond]

There is no problem here if you follow the book.

The book says that you roll 2d6+6 for EDU if you use that option, and this provides an average of 13. That makes the multipliers more in line with skill point allotment.

Now, I think the real problem is that using point buy, the book says that you get 24 pts to spend for a normal campaign, but the 24 points is based on the core stats (STR, CON, SIZ, APP, DEX, INT, POW), with STR, CON, SIZ and APP costing 1 point to increase, and DEX, INT, POW costing 3 pts to increase. The problem is that by adding EDU without increasing the total number of points to spend, you have skewed everything. Off the top of my head, using the thought that an increase of 1 to each stat would cost 13 points, which means that 24 points almost allows you to increase all stats by 2, if using EDU in a point buy game, you should add 6 points to the total number of points to spend (30 instead of 24). This will definitely help offset things.

Ian

[soltakss]

Education is relative.

In the Middle Ages. if you had a degree then you were Highly Educated, if you had a doctorate then you were at the top of the Education Tree.

Nowadays, if you have a degree then you are Well Educated, a Doctorate makes you Highly Educated and Professors are at the top of the Education Tree.

I have seen balance problems when you mix EDU and non-EDU. In Merrie England, only certain backgrounds/professions get the advantage of EDU and they get it as a bonus that they can apply to scholarly skills, which gives them a higher skill level. I handwave it as the "Benefits of Study" but it could be slightly unbalancing. Fortunately, such backgrounds/professions are generally not the swordfighting types, so they would spend most of their other points on non-combat skills, but there's no reason why a Wizard, for example, couldn't use EDU to boost Magic and then use his other points to boost combat skills.

[SDLeary]

Something simple. Rename it: EDU becomes WIS (Wisdom). This divorces it from "formal" education to simple aquired knowledge.

Now with regards to point buy, I agree with Vagabond above that you have to adjust somewhat the number of points allotted. Remember that the core is based on Elric/Stormbringer, with EDU being an "option", so things might have to be tweaked a bit, especially depending on the setting.

SDLeary

[LivingTriskele]

I was considering giving the players an extra 9 points (to equal a starting EDU of 13, and thus a similar amount of professional skill points). Do you guys think that's too high?

[vagabond]

I was considering giving the players an extra 9 points (to equal a starting EDU of 13, and thus a similar amount of professional skill points). Do you guys think that's too high?

I think that is too high for a normal level game. Again, looking at the recommended 24 points for 7 stats, and a total increase of 1 to all stats is 13 points, a total increase of 2 to all stats is 26 points, adding in enough points to increase by 2 (6 points) seems in line with the original value of 24. Adding 9 points yields an increase of 3, which seems too high.

Ian

[LivingTriskele]

Ah, I should have mentioned the game I'm running is heroic... 6 pt increase for normal sounds good. 9 pt for heroic? Do you have any thoughts regarding other campaign levels. Thanks for the response, BTW.

[LivingTriskele]

Perhaps another option would be to just increase the multiplier to EDU for professional skills so that a base of 10 EDU yields a similar amount of points as characters without EDU

[vagabond]

Ah, I should have mentioned the game I'm running is heroic... 6 pt increase for normal sounds good. 9 pt for heroic? Do you have any thoughts regarding other campaign levels. Thanks for the response, BTW.

Since the scale of normal, heroic, epic and superhuman increase at a rate of 50% of heroic (i.e. 12 points between levels), and if 6 points for a normal campaign seems approrpiate (or 30 points for characteristics total), then yes, 9 points seems to fall in line:

normal 30

heroic 45 (1.5 times normal)

epic 60 (2 times normal)

superhuman 75 (2.5 times normal)

Also, when deciding on multipliers, use the average of 2d6+6 (13), not the base of 10, to figure it out. 10 is the starting point, not the average. So, if adjusting the multipliers using 13, you would have:

normal (20x13 = 260 pts)

heroic (25x13 = 325 pts)

epic (30x13 = 390 pts)

super (40x13 = 520 pts)

Ian