Breech-loader

[Chorpa]

I am playing a pre-Civil War weird west campaign at the moment. I was thinking on how to represent a Breech-loading rifle in the game since they where quite common during that time.

I was thinking about just using the stats for Bolt-action and maybe Sporting Rifles (for the ones with smaller calibres) but reducing the Attk (Bolt-action to 1/3 and Sporting Rifle to 1/2) and the Ammo to 1. The reduced Attk should take into account the extra round of reloading since they don't have a magazine of some sort like more modern rifles have.

Opinions and suggestions please!

[rust]

Single shot breech loading rifles are not much different from single barrel shotguns, the

rate of fire should be the same. Looking at the shotgun stats on page 255 of BRP, the

shotgun with Ammo 2 (two barrels, probably) has an Attack of "1 or 2" (with "2" firing

both barrels at once, probably). Therefore an Attack of 1 for a single shot breech loa-

ding rifle seems about right - and a combat round of 12 seconds is indeed long enough

to load, aim and fire such a rifle.

By the way, breech loading rifles became common only around 1850+ in Europe, so I

would be surprised if many of them would have been around in North America before

the Civil War.

Edited August 26, 2011 by rust

[Chorpa]

Single shot breech loading rifles are not much different from single barrel shotguns, the

rate of fire should be the same. Looking at the shotgun stats on page 255 of BRP, the

shotgun with Ammo 2 (two barrels, probably) has an Attack of "1 or 2" (with "2" firing

both barrels at once, probably). Therefore an Attack of 1 for a single shot breech loa-

ding rifle seems about right - and a combat round of 12 seconds is indeed long enough

to load, aim and fire such a rifle.

I agree completely. The way I saw it was that a breech-loader and a bolt-action rifle really shouldn't have much difference in Attack rating except that with a bolt action you just feed a new cartridge from the rifles storage system while with a breech loader you would have to insert a new one directly into the mechanism. So the thought was to include the extra loading time in the attack rating which already was 1/2 for a bolt-action (errata maybe since it does sound a bit slow for a bolt action). But I guess it was a rushed decision since as you mentioned a shotgun has a attack of 1. So I guess a bolt-action with attack 1 and ammo of 1 would be not to far off for a common breech-loader.

By the way, breech loading rifles became common only around 1850+ in Europe, so I

would be surprised if many of them would have been around in North America before

the Civil War.

I am no weapon expert or historian. But as far as I know several known rifles made an appearance in the 1850s in the states too, how common they where I don't know though. I do know that breech-loading mechanisms was used way before that and even as far back as 16th century for firearms and even back to the 14th century for cannons/swivel guns. There are several muskets using breech-loading mechanisms. Ferguson Rifle and Brown Bess for example! But I guess you are more thinking of the cartridge breech-loaders.

[Atgxtg]

Breech-loaders were around eariler than 1850, it is just that they weren't very useful for rifles. The limiting factor was the ammunition. Breech loading rifles really need self contained bullets (mettalic cartridges). While there were some mettlatic crtirduges before the Civil War, most were unreliable. Some were more dangerous to the shooter than to the target.

I got a book on some weapons. I could dig up stats for a couple if it would help.

[rust]

But I guess you are more thinking of the cartridge breech-loaders.

Yes, indeed. As far as I remember it, Dreyse's paper cartridge breech loading rife, Prussia's

"secret weapon" which enabled it to win the wars of Germany's reunification, was the first

mass produced and reliable breech loading rifle, although several gunsmiths from as many

countries had already produced similar weapons in small numbers before that.

Prussian riflemen were expected to fire at least 10 shots per minute with this single shot ri-

fle, a devastating rate of fire compared to the muzzle loading rifles used by most of their

opponents, especially the rather "leisurely" Austrians. Moreover, the Prussian soldier did not

have to stand up and expose himself to enemy fire to reload his rifle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyse_needle_gun

Edited August 26, 2011 by rust

[Chorpa]

Well to be more specific it is actually the Sharps rifle I was thinking about. The players came along a shipment of Sharps rifles that they gave to the anti-slavery movement in Kansas Territory in one of their previous adventures (of course they kept a pair for themselves). It's was about the time when they where starting to become available (started to sell in the late 1840s). Just haven't felt any of the stats in the BRP book was fitting.

Closest I can think of is the previous mentioned solution with the Bolt-action rifle but with an ammo capacity of 1 or maybe the Musket Rifle but with an improved rate of fire.

[ORtrail]

Wait, the Brown Bess was a breech-loader? I've only seen it as a muzzle-loader. Were you refering to some rare variant model?

[Chorpa]

Wait, the Brown Bess was a breech-loader? I've only seen it as a muzzle-loader. Were you refering to some rare variant model?

Well I might have been wrong on the Brown Bess. According to my source the Brown Bess replaced the Ferguson Rifle but doesn't mention it being a breech loader so I might have been making some assumptions that where not correct.

But I still need to get some good stats to represent the Sharps rifles. I think I am going with the Rifle Musket stats for now but lower the Attack to 1/2 from 1/4 because of the breech-loading mechanism to take into account for the faster reloading time. This could of course be rushed according to the Unaimed Shots for the Spot Rules for Firearms on p.254.

[DCAnsell]

I think there are two issues here. One, is the fact that the BRP rates of fire for guns are often ludicrously slow. For a reasonably skilled shooter, its quite possible to accurately empty the ten round magazine of a bolt-action Lee Enfield at typical combat ranges in 30 seconds, and even well-aimed long range shooting in a minute. That certainly is a lot faster than a 1 shot every 24 seconds rate of fire as given in the weapon lists. Even taking into account the stress of combat, etc, the rates of fire aren't right.

The Brown Bess didn't actually replace the Ferguson Rifle. Only about a hundred Fergusons were made, they cost something like 5 or 6 times what a Brown Bess musket did, and took 4 times as long to produce. They were only issued as an experiment during the American Revolution to a special unit made up of light troops from several regiments. When Ferguson himself was wounded leading the unit, it was more or less disbanded, and at King's Mountain, later, where the Major met his death, his troops were using the Brown Bess musket, and fighting in standard line formation, against men using civilian rifles and fighting from good cover.

For the Sharps rifle, and using the lamentably slow rates of fire and bad ranges in the book, I'd give the Sharps rifle (circa 1851) the following stats:

Skill: Rifle

Base: 25

Damage: 2d6+3

Attack: 1/2

Special: Impaling

Range: 100

Hands: 2H

Hit Points: 10

Parry: No

STR/DEX: 9/5

Malfunction: 98-00

Ammo: 1

Value (in 1851): Expensive

Siz/Enc: 3.0

SR: 1/SR

[Chorpa]

I think there are two issues here. One, is the fact that the BRP rates of fire for guns are often ludicrously slow. For a reasonably skilled shooter, its quite possible to accurately empty the ten round magazine of a bolt-action Lee Enfield at typical combat ranges in 30 seconds, and even well-aimed long range shooting in a minute. That certainly is a lot faster than a 1 shot every 24 seconds rate of fire as given in the weapon lists. Even taking into account the stress of combat, etc, the rates of fire aren't right.

Agree on that. Have always wondered about the Bolt-Actions very slow RoF and thinking it probably was an errata. But I always explain to my players that a CR is a fluid abstract time sort of like how MOV stat is. MOV is an abstract number between 1-5m per MOV with an average of 3m.

Another way to resolve this problem is to use the SR system. Even though I dislike extra rule mechanic myself it would enable an average person to at least shoot and reload during a combat round.

The Brown Bess didn't actually replace the Ferguson Rifle. Only about a hundred Fergusons were made, they cost something like 5 or 6 times what a Brown Bess musket did, and took 4 times as long to produce. They were only issued as an experiment during the American Revolution to a special unit made up of light troops from several regiments. When Ferguson himself was wounded leading the unit, it was more or less disbanded, and at King's Mountain, later, where the Major met his death, his troops were using the Brown Bess musket, and fighting in standard line formation, against men using civilian rifles and fighting from good cover.

Good to know. As mentioned before I am no weapon historian and using internet as a source can be a bit unreliable sometimes.

For the Sharps rifle, and using the lamentably slow rates of fire and bad ranges in the book, I'd give the Sharps rifle (circa 1851) the following stats:

Skill: Rifle

Base: 25

Damage: 2d6+3

Attack: 1/2

Special: Impaling

Range: 100

Hands: 2H

Hit Points: 10

Parry: No

STR/DEX: 9/5

Malfunction: 98-00

Ammo: 1

Value (in 1851): Expensive

Siz/Enc: 3.0

SR: 1/SR

Sounds something a long the line of what I was thinking. Filling in the gap between Musket Rifle and Bolt-Action Rifle.