Fate Points BGB and other places

[Jegergryte]

Right.

So I have decided to let my heroes have another edge, fate points… grand idea, different thing, different places.

Looking in BGB I see that the writer(s) of the book has decided to use power points, fair enough, yet I won't do that (I don't like regenerating fate so "easily"), I will change prices to fit into a fate point system. Which basically means that the two first options given in BGB costs 1 fate point. The third costs 1 fp per 3 points of damage.

The next option, the "shift result"-option, costs 3 fate points.

The "max-damage"-option cost is half weapon damage round up fate points.

I have looked at openquest, which is cool, and I have included the "survival by fate" option too at a cost of 1 fp.

Fate points are only gained through good roleplaying (I have meta-gamers and roll-players too fond of 4e and wow to understand, what I consider, proper roleplaying, they must learn!).

Also, I am thinking of a system to exchange experience checks for fate points at a 5-1, 4-1 or 3-1 rate… (for those that find actual roleplaying to hard, embarrassing or something).

I have considered having a cap of the number of fp, capped either at 5, 10 or POW, or perhaps POW+INT/2 … or some other number… suggestions?

What I'm wondering is if anyone else uses a variation of this system or another and how you have implemented it…?

PS –*Keep in mind that this is a gritty high adventure fantasy game, semi-low-magic (coming up on full blooming magic mayhem and destruction in 5 in-game years; lunar alignment and all), coming up on semi-post-apocalyptic madness, entering into pseudo-sci-fi within a couple of months… (if they survive that long – hence the need for fate points to up their chances).

[tedopon]

When I use them, they're mechanically vague. Basically a limited Get Out Of Jail Free card. I don't give a ton of them out and they don't get used very often, either. Each use costs one point.

When players ask what they can do with them, I keep it simple and say something along the lines of "unless there is an opposed roll that is a critical success, you will succeed with (x)". There has only been one time that a FP has been used in a nonmechanical way I can think of. They made a really boneheaded decision that would have killed about two dozen innocents who were in the wrong place at the wrong time and right at the beginning of the following round, one of the PCs realized it before I had said anything and I let him burn a point to redo the previous round.

Keeping it vague like that has resulted in the players not using them very often, and me not giving them out very often.

[Aini]

I am not a fan of fate points personally but i can see some value in it to reward/encourage roleplaying with your group... That said roleplaying is quite a subjective thing and everyone has different styles/approaches to this. Ive found some people simply cannot 'act' in character, speaking in 1st person as if they was the character speaking. Yet the same person may be very good at playing a consistent character in 3rd person.

The key is playing a character consistently i think within the characters concept and their background and such. Something i do for my games is REQUIRE all players write a fairly detailed background (often i work with them a little to get campaign specific details in there) before we start a game, this helps them to roleplay a character well within the game itself. Players who just write stats on a character sheet will have far more trouble in visualising and personalising with a character.

Ok so that was off on a bit of a tangent from your actual question, but if i was awarding Fate Points in the manner you suggest i would stick to it being a roleplaying reward for playing characters consistently. It would be an arbitrary reward via your discretion and only obtainable that way. I would probably cap them at 1/5 of POW stat or something like that.

Note: Power Points and Fate Points are not the same thing, Power Points are the 'fuel' for spells/psychic powers and such, Fate Points are not the same thing at all and are used like a 're-roll' or such for most circumstances that are going bad

Edit: just went over the Fate Point section of BGB and i see what you mean.. they actually use power points to fuel Fate Points. (never remembered the section before since i didnt like the idea of them i guess) But yea i would replace the 'power points' requirement to just 1 fate point gained in manner above for each of the uses.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Aini

[Jegergryte]

Certainly, it matters not (much) whether they play 1st person or 3rd person, just that they do roleplay… rather than say "I [or "my character"] use x skill/ability to cause y effect" without no thought as to what "using x ability/skill" actually requires to cause "y effect" … what a character says matters! The previous example is based on a player wanting to use fast talk or something to cause confusion and penalties upon an intoxicated pirate attacking his friend, fair enough I can be lenient, but what does the character say? how does he say it? cause-effect, what are the ramifications from calling a "pirate's" mother foul things …? the "pirate" changes his target next round because of that, certainly, attacking the weakling with too big mouth… then the player wonders why this happens, he was "only trying to help his friend" … rgh … I am not blessed with the best players in the history of Pentarus, no…

As for the fate point things… capping the amount at 1/5 of POW would make many uses of fate points … well… impossible. Of course I could use the fate point system straight from BGB, however I'd rather have a different source than power points (which BGB wants to use as fate stuffness), something which doesn't necessarily regenerate, yet helps you out in those dire situations where you're up shit creek without a paddle, the faeces-golem newly resurrected and your last drop of deodorant spent torching those pesky insects… sometimes you need a few fate points to survive and fulfil your destiny.

Thanks for input though

PS - I have decided that one can exchange all skill experience checks at the end of a session in return for two fate points. Yes. Mhm.

[Mankcam]

I use a hybrid system for my rpgs, which is a mix of BRP and MRQ2 rules, and I incorperate Fate options from both, to a degree.

I like BRP BGB's Fate points in the fact that a character must 'invest' into the world to get something out of it. However I tweaked the rules somewhat. First of all I made using Fate a flate rate of 5 PP, and if PP are used for purposes of Fate then they are recovered at 1 PP/day, not 1 PP /hour like with magic use.

Secondly I request for the characters to make a Luck Roll (POWx5) in order to see if they have successfully tweaked Fate. Success equals either a skill re-roll, or 2pts damage reduction, or a narrative benefit. I don't allow for Fate to enhance skills or anything like that, as that is what Magic or Divine Intervention is for, so Fate is used when a character basically glitches their roll and wants a chance to minimise or get out of it. It isn't overused this way, and the BRP system retains it's gritty flavour if Fate is only used for re-rolls, rather than how Fate Points can be added to together in some systems to grant major benefits.

So if you like a gritty gameplay, but want to allow characters second chances then this is not a bad way to do it.

For a slightly more heroic game I also use a refined application of MRQ2 Hero Points.This is because I use Hero Points so I can have a 'currency' for which powerful characters can use to obtain MRQ2 Heroic Abilities (along with the other usual prerequisites). I give them out quite sparingly like others have suggested, primarily as a reward for good very roleplaying and sometimes at the successful completion of a story arc if it feels right (it's certainly not always expected).

Hero Points can be accumulated for Heroic Abilities, or they can be expended as a 'free Fate' option, instead of expending 5PP. So the character has to choose which option they want to go with for Fate - 5PP cost or the loss of a Hero Point. Hero Points tend to not be overused this way, and are valued rather than a disposable comodity.

This bastardisation of the two systems isn't as bad as it sounds, it works quite smoothly for our games. The main thing with Fate is that the cost needs to be weighty (ie: 5PP and a slower PP recovery), and that it shouldn't be certainity (ie: a Luck roll). Not allowing them to be over-powerful, just allowing access to second-chances, is a key to keeping grittiness if you like the current BRP flavour with combat.

[Jegergryte]

Nice Mankcam!

I like them a lot. I find your second option to be the most interesting, however I wonder if you are using MRQ2/Legend Heroic Abilites with BRP and if so, how does that work for you? is there any need for tweaking?

Although I'm alreadey using Dragon Lines and other stuff, would Heroic Abilites crash the game?

[Mankcam]

I can't see Heroic Abilities actually crashing the game, as they are from a variant system of BRP (MRQ2). Actually Heroic Abilities aren't as potent as I would like, considering their prerequisities (something which the author Loz indicated that may be getting a revamp for RQ6).

I'm not sure how Heroic Abilities would mix with Dragon Lines. I can't see it being a problem with actual gameplay, but it may be cumbersome from a player-character point of view trying not to trip over too many options. You wouldn't want to find a Heroic Ability does the same as a specific Martial Arts Technique, it'ld be a little confusing.

I really love how Martial Arts Styles are presented in Dragon Lines, and I'm considering Dragon Lines for my next setting, I love wuxia and it's done well with that supplement.

If you have already been using Martial Arts Styles from Dragon Lines, then the introduction of MRQ2 Heroic Abilities would have to be carefully considered, there's likely to be some pitfalls mixing those two. I can't fathom what they are at present, although my gut instinct seems to tell me to be cautious introducing both options to the same setting.

[RosenMcStern]

If you play Dragon Lines and there are Heroic Abilities from MRQII that you like, I see no particular reason not to introduce them as additional Powers that some schools of MA can teach. That would avoid the confusion generated by having two different ways of acquiring powers. I do not recommend using Hero Points to buy these abilities, if you use Hero Points in your games.

[Jegergryte]

Ah, ok. Then I will only have a look-see at MRQ2 and see what is fun enough to include. Dropping the Hero Point system then. Hm... yes, although I would like to have it, I see the problem with the different way of acquiring the cool stuff... hm. yes.

Thanks for input guys!

[Mankcam]

I tend to agree with Rosen, I think you could throw Heroic Abilities into the mix, but the Hero Points option is passe if you're already using Dragon Lines Martial Arts, his idea about translating Heroic Abilities into various Martial Arts Techniques sounds pretty good. Obiviously if you're not already using Hero Points then it would be cumbersome (and pointless) to bring them to the setting.

If I had more time I'ld do a whole range of Martial Arts using the Dragon Lines Styles format, and apply them to European Martial Arts (Eg: Queensbury Boxing, Folk Wrestling, Staff Fighting, Men-At-Arms Skills, Archery, Jousting/Mounted Fighting, Fencing, Florentine Swordplay, etc). You'ld be able to reskin many of the Dragon Lines Techniques, and convert some MRQ2 Heroic Abilities to be used in there as well.

If only I had the time...

[AndrewMorton]

I run plenty of games that have this mechanic in them - fate points, hero points, bennies, fortune points, determination - and so on.

I like the effect they have on the game when players understand how to get them and when to use them - it adds an extra dimension to the fun.

The different systems all have different ways of calculating how many you get to start with and how many you can accrue. I think they work best when they are a limited resource and are hard to acquire - too many and you start to effect the balance of things. To my mind, they suit heroic play better than 'realistic' play. If you want your players to act in an heroic way, then fate points should be one of the tools that allows them to do this.

[KingSkin]

I used to quite like them, having used Fate/Fortune/Hero points in a few different systems. I tend to stay away from them these days though (I'm not using them in my current campaign) for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, WFRPs 2nd Ed (which is a great game) used them as a way to avoid death. Unfortunately the developer's notes section made it clear that these are basically an 'extra life' for characters 'just like in a computer game'. That just broke them for me and I started to dislike the idea of them.

Secondly, they tend to fall into the same position as potions. People never want to use them in case they need them later for something more important so they just end up stock-piled for no reason. I have one player who is the exception to this. He will, without fail, blow all available points on the first roll he fails in a game because he's determined to use them up.

I was toying with using them for my current game but seem to vaguely remember not liking the BRP implementation when I read through the rules. Although I may use them for another, more heroic game, when this one ends. Maybe tinker with them a little to make them more what I want.

[Greville]

I like fate points, and use them. But not as they're written in the BGB. I started using them after seeing them in action in a friend's game. Then again I go for a more cinematic style of play these days.

Here's how I use them:

Each player starts with a pool of 3 fate points that is renewed at the start of each game session.

• 1 point can be spent to re-roll any dice roll made by the player. Points cannot be used to force any of the other players to re-roll.
  
• 1 point can be spent to change a fumble to a normal failure or a critical success against the player’s character to a normal success. They cannot be used to make a normal success into a special or critical success.
  
• 1 Point can be spent to stabilise an unconscious or dying character as if first aid had been performed on them.
  
• Any fate points that are unspent at the end of a session do not roll over to the next session and extra fate points cannot be purchased with experience.
  

Originally it was thought they should be tied to the skill or experience system, or that you could earn more points through your actions. What happened is people started hoarding fate points. So we went to a fixed number.

Fate points are a controversial topic; many feel game reality should only be altered by the Gamemaster, their solution is that the GM ‘fudges’ the situation. In my experience this is a path to ruin, the worst situation is when a GM with a penchant for fudging decided to let the dice fall where they may, then players feel like the GM let your PC die for a reason.

I use Fate Points in all my games now, rather than being just an extra life, they put a little control of the story in the players hands. Fate Points also can act as a cue; people only use them for stuff that’s important to them or their PC, as a GM that’s always handy information.

[KingSkin]

Fate points are a controversial topic; many feel game reality should only be altered by the Gamemaster, their solution is that the GM ‘fudges’ the situation. In my experience this is a path to ruin, the worst situation is when a GM with a penchant for fudging decided to let the dice fall where they may, then players feel like the GM let your PC die for a reason.

I use Fate Points in all my games now, rather than being just an extra life, they put a little control of the story in the players hands. Fate Points also can act as a cue; people only use them for stuff that’s important to them or their PC, as a GM that’s always handy information.

See, I don't fudge dice at all. Apart from things like hidden Spot rolls and the like, everything gets rolled out in the open so I have no option but to go with the flow. I prefer it that way because it means that while the GM and players can both influence the story, there's a 3rd element at work that generates unexpected results and forces you to take them into account. I used to fudge dice but now these days I tend to think that if you ignore the dice when they give a result you don't like then you may as well not use them. I realise that's a bit extreme but I love the unexpected results the 'Lords of the Dice' bring to the table. It can be a bit shit when a character dies unexpectedly to a random goon with a lucky shot and I know some people hate to lose or kill characters like that but from either end of the table I genuinely prefer it. If every death is a poignant moment wrapped up in acres of plot then it loses its sting, especially when players are facing mooks and gain that feeling of Plot Armour.

That's just my take on it though. I recently lost a character because he tried to punch out a dragon (partly through stupidity, partly through trying to buy his friends time to close a portal) and the GM felt bad because he was a much-loved character that brought a lot of fun (and 'pragmatic violence') to the table. But my point was that if he'd fudged it then I would have felt like I was playing the character on borrowed time and it would have spiked the enjoyment I got from him. Then again, when I used to run D&D I stripped out all the resurrection magic because I got bored of seeing death get neutered like that so I may be a bit odd here.

Oh, and the extra life thing was just when a developer revealed too much behind the curtain. If he hadn't couched it in terms of each Fate Point being a 1UP I wouldn't have minded because that's pretty much how they function. But describing it like that just reminded me too forcefully that's its just another game and put me off the idea of them. Although, as I said earlier, if I end up running a slightly less gritty game, or my players decide they want them, I'll probably use a modify the system to something closer to yours and slot it in.

[Greville]

That's just my take on it though. I recently lost a character because he tried to punch out a dragon (partly through stupidity, partly through trying to buy his friends time to close a portal) and the GM felt bad because he was a much-loved character that brought a lot of fun (and 'pragmatic violence') to the table. But my point was that if he'd fudged it then I would have felt like I was playing the character on borrowed time and it would have spiked the enjoyment I got from him.

Another good reason not to fudge the dice rolls. I agree 100%. The way I run Fate Points would not have saved your character, but would have guaranteed that he bought the time for the rest of the party to close that portal. And bought that time in a way that you chose.

Then again, when I used to run D&D I stripped out all the resurrection magic because I got bored of seeing death get neutered like that so I may be a bit odd here.

Agree here as well, I always felt resurrection was too easy as played in most DnD games.