Expanded Guns Tables

[pansophy]

No , the modern weapons BRP Supplements covers things beyond weapons, as far as I know. So you get scopes, laser aiming and stuff like that.

BTW: while discussing weapon damage, do not forget that sometimes damage is setting related or could be. And then there is bruise damage in addition to penetration damage - BRP does not address that.

I think BRP is a gun maniac's nightmare as it is not even close to addressing damage in a realistic way. And then, who needs that. Not me. I like the vague description of 'medium pistol' in the BGB. As I do like the term 'long sword' for an 'estoc'. The differences I think are marginally and my campaigns do not rely on combat and combat is not realistic in an RPG anyway.

All that matters is a sort of consistance within an RPG. Stuff! and "Guns, Guns, Guns" give you that, at least all weapons created with it are consistent. But then, there are so many examples in the BGB which you can simply modify ...

[rleduc]

FYI I have the modern firearms system that I used in Rubble and Ruin available in the download sections. There are Modern and WWII. Many people tell me they like these rules.

[Al.]

Technically speaking. The original damage for a 9mm pistol was 1D8. someone redid the damage tables for CoC in one of the later editions.

How 'original' is original? I gots me a copy of 2nd edition CoC which lists 9mm/.38 as 1d10

[Bleddyn]

"FYI I have the modern firearms system that I used in Rubble and Ruin available in the download sections. There are Modern and WWII. Many people tell me they like these rules. "

Many compliments on the rules ... In fact I am about to spec out my RL 6.8mm M4 for my modern BRP Shadow Warriors Campaign.

[Atgxtg]

How 'original' is original? I gots me a copy of 2nd edition CoC which lists 9mm/.38 as 1d10

Orginal as in the first edtion boxed set that came with the "Sourcebook for the 1920s" in it.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

I haven't had a chance to get this yet, but GURPS Tactical Shooting looks like it might be useful if you're going for realism. Until then, I'll stick with my Striker! conversion tables ...

[pansophy]

Until then, I'll stick with my Striker! conversion tables ...

so, how do your striker weapons hold up with my 2300AD tables? Do you think they are compareable?

[Guest Vile Traveller]

No time to compare yet!

EDIT: Okay, a very quick comparison. I think overall we're pretty close on damage, although I added a penetration rule which means some weapons ignore a certain amount of armour. On the other hand, your armour values are a bit lower than the ones I used in my original Striker! conversions IIRC (I really should re-do those one day), so that probably comes out in the wash. Your ranges seem a bit low? Mine are mostly based on accepted RL ranges and extrapolated from there for SF guns.

I've just noticed I never included a note on whether weapons impale or not. I remember something in CoC about bullets being crushing weapons.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Vile

[pansophy]

Well, the ranges are taken from the original 2300 setting, divided by 4 as that seems to result into a comparable value to the BGB. I was thinking they are a bit low, too, but during gaming usually it does not make a huge difference as most combats take place between 0 to 50m. And I must say 2300 is a lot more low tech than Traveller.

So I am glad you agree with the values in a way and I am not too far off.

Looking at Mr.LeDuc's rules (Risk), I never used them but now it makes me curious how they will hold up during play. i understand the intention for them, and it actually might help characters to survive combat. Definitivlely worth a try!

[rust]

I remember something in CoC about bullets being crushing weapons.

I am not aware of this. The only relevant rule I know of is that all firearms and

all melee weapons with a point can cause critical hits on 1/5 or less of the cha-

racter's skill with the weapon, leading to double damage (and a melee weapon

has to be removed from the target's body next round without additional dama-

ge).

[dragonewt]

Here are some expanded guns for the expanded gun tables:

[Guest Vile Traveller]

I am not aware of this.

I may well be wrong, I haven't really looked at CoC since 2nd edition or so. In fact, I don't think CoC had the slash/crush specials, did it? When I cogitate more enthusiastically, the rule I'm thinking of had firearms not impaling. This is bugging me now, where did I get that from? And does it make any sense?

[rust]

In fact, I don't think CoC had the slash/crush specials, did it?

At least not any version I know. The early version only had the rule for a critical

hit mentioned above, later versions also have an optional rule for special success

and fumble, but as far as I am aware of it the differences between the weapon

types (for example crushing, slashing, impaling, etc.) do not exist in Call of Cthul-

hu.

[filbanto]

Looking at Mr.LeDuc's rules (Risk), I never used them but now it makes me curious how they will hold up during play. i understand the intention for them, and it actually might help characters to survive combat. Definitivlely worth a try!

Narl and I are playing in Rich's Rubble and Ruin game now. We haven't gotten into too many firefights yet:) The rules mimic the effects of modern firearms against modern armor pretty well. It's basically an all or nothing affair with armor. A light kevlar vest will soak up all the damage of a small round, like a .22, easily, but is almost worthless against a high powered rifle. Fortunately ammo is pretty scarce in the rubble.

[Bleddyn]

Narl and I are playing in Rich's Rubble and Ruin game now. We haven't gotten into too many firefights yet:) The rules mimic the effects of modern firearms against modern armor pretty well. It's basically an all or nothing affair with armor. A light kevlar vest will soak up all the damage of a small round, like a .22, easily, but is almost worthless against a high powered rifle. Fortunately ammo is pretty scarce in the rubble.

Guess SAP plates are not available? 7.62mmx54mm is a bitch to stop....

[filbanto]

Guess SAP plates are not available? 7.62mmx54mm is a bitch to stop....

Theoretically you can get SAP plates for your armor if you can find, trade or scrounge them up. Rubble and Ruin has slightly higher tech than our world. One of the bruisers in our group is wearing a really nice breastplate. I picture it something like the armour they had in Aliens. I think a 7.62x54mmR would just punch a hole in his armor (cannot recall the actual stats off the top of my head).

[Bleddyn]

Theoretically you can get SAP plates for your armor if you can find, trade or scrounge them up. Rubble and Ruin has slightly higher tech than our world. One of the bruisers in our group is wearing a really nice breastplate. I picture it something like the armour they had in Aliens. I think a 7.62x54mmR would just punch a hole in his armor (cannot recall the actual stats off the top of my head).

I have RL experience with the III+ & IV+ Level SAP plates.... especially vs the 7.62mm x39mm and 7.62x54mmR B-32 rounds.... I will share this in a private chat if you like. Also a few anecdotal notes about the Long-Iron shooters we have gone up against.

Here is a company that makes claims that I know are not 100% accurate. http://www.bodyarmornews.com/bodyarmordevelopments/new-hard-armor-inserts-developed.htm

[filbanto]

I have RL experience with the III+ & IV+ Level SAP plates.... especially vs the 7.62mm x39mm and 7.62x54mmR B-32 rounds.... I will share this in a private chat if you like. Also a few anecdotal notes about the Long-Iron shooters we have gone up against.

Here is a company that makes claims that I know are not 100% accurate. http://www.bodyarmornews.com/bodyarmordevelopments/new-hard-armor-inserts-developed.htm

I'm pretty sure Rich ginned up his rules from armor penetration studies. Basically put a vest on a balistic gel body, shoot it, see how far the round penetrates. Feel free to PM me off list. I'll shoot Rich an email pointing him at this thread. He discussed how his rules work in the Rubble and Ruin topic in the BRP Publications forum.

[Atgxtg]

I'm curious. What are the changes from the core rules?

I commented a while back that there were some difficulties with BRP regarding weapon damages and armor penetration. For one thing the damages are random (reflecting the variation lethality when striking a body) maing ithard for them to consistently penetrate a given thickness of armor. For another, the range is condensed so much that rounds end up being able to penetrate armor that they never could, again due to the variables for damage.

What's different in the supplement?

[filbanto]

I'm curious. What are the changes from the core rules?

I commented a while back that there were some difficulties with BRP regarding weapon damages and armor penetration. For one thing the damages are random (reflecting the variation lethality when striking a body) maing ithard for them to consistently penetrate a given thickness of armor. For another, the range is condensed so much that rounds end up being able to penetrate armor that they never could, again due to the variables for damage.

What's different in the supplement?

Rich has a good summary of things on the BRP Publications forum:

http://basicroleplaying.com/showthread.php/1941-RUBBLE-amp-RUIN-A-World-Gone-Mad-with-Killing/page4

I let him know we're discussing R&R in this thread and hopefully he'll be along shortly to clear up any confusion.

[rleduc]

I’ll see what I can add, but first some caveats. The system in Rubble and Ruin is (with a few minor variations) the same as what I have available in the download section. Also, my goal was not to create the world’s most realistic fire arms system, but rather to create a framework in which a reasonably realistic RPG could be run – while keeping things simple and fast. Basically I wanted to address some deficiencies like 1) incremental armor (armor absorbs a portion of the damage), 2) the lack of variation in lethality (people survive being hit by high powered rifles all the time – they just don’t survive being hit well), and 3) I wanted to be able to take modern fire arms and “spec them out” to game stats, and I wanted the game stats to be meaningfully different. I will address each of these points in turn.

1) For armor, I used the ATF guidelines for which rounds that can be stopped by a given armor level, then I put a small “wiggle” factor on, and said that was how much risk was reduced. But anything over the stopped risk was basically unaffected (-1 Risk which yields approximately -1 HP damage, but see below).

2) The lack of variation in damage was addressed with the risk system. The problem is that 4D6 to the chest is invariably fetal unless you use an unrealistic “incremental” armor model. (4D6 averages 14 HP damage with only ~3% of the possible rolls being less than 8 – fetal for most people). Ideally, I would have liked the damage of a round to be uniformly distributed from 1 to Risk (Risk 6 => 1 to 6, or 1D6; Risk 12 => 1D12 etc). But I moved away from that for simplicity – the current system only uses easy to roll combinations (e.g. 1D10+1 for Risk 11, not 1D11). Remember that I use this with damage by hit location. So, without ballistic armor, 1D10+1 to the chest has a good chance of dropping someone in one shot – but there is still a 10% chance they will walk away with just a scratch!

3) Within the community of fire arms users there are differing opinions on the efficacy of variables such as round speed versus bullet diameter. My experience is limited primarily to my reading and spending a few years hanging with a fire arms examiner for the Illinois State Police (who every day saw different people who had been shot to death). I adopted his opinions (to the best of my limited ability) in the rules I presented, but I tried to create a system that others could easily modify to match their own opinions. For example, the risk values associated with different rounds can easily be changed – I even post the document in a word processor file (not a PDF) so you can edit it to match your own views.

I need to run now, but I will follow this thread and respond if anyone cares to ask questions. (Also, constructive comments are always welcome.)

[rleduc]

Deleted

Edited May 31, 2011 by rleduc
Same post came up twice...

[KingSkin]

That sounds like a pretty interesting system, I'll download it and take a look. Couple of quick questions though. Firstly; how survivable are firefights? It sounds like it could be pretty lethal but would really reward tactical play which is what I strongly encourage. I think fights should be dangerous places, especially when things like blades and bullets come into play. But I also like the fact that, even if ambushed, a fairly skilled bunch who know what they're doing can take logical actions that will increase their chances of survival.

I play the Infinity wargame precisely because it models that vey well (along with the fluid nature of a modern/future battlefield). And it has some of the nicest models I've ever seen.

And secondly; how quick is it in play?

First thing I thought of when I started reading this thread was that I've got a copy of Edge Of The Sword Vol 1. The Compendium of Modern Firearms which was published by R Talsorian in the '90s. It was written by an armourer for the National Guard in America who'd written a post-apocalyptic RPG (called The Morrow Project) as his PhD thesis. It's basically a massive list of firearms and their stats along with seemingly incomprehensible ballistic tables for each weapon. At the back it explained how his hideously complicated* shooting system worked then gave conversion notes to integrate it into a load of popular games. D&D was one of them whch aways made me chuckle. I never did my GW to let my half-orc barbarian take a brace of Automag IV's even after I statted the buggers up.

It also had CoC conversions listed so I may dig it out and see how well they'd work with BRP.

*He wrote concise rules like he wrote snappy titles

[filbanto]

The system is deadly enough! Narl took out some poor SOB last week with a few shots from his .22LR - pretty sure he rolled an impale or crit on one shot though. An individual rifle bullet is not too much deadlier than a crossbow. Bullets can cut through non-ballistic armor and guns have a high rate of fire though.

It plays quickly - of course we've got the author GMing the game:) The only real difference is the need to refer to the risk chart to figure out what damage your gun does.

[Narl]

We had a good size Rubble & Ruin firefight last night. The additional rules for Risk don't slow things down. You have the Risk rating for the firearm on your character sheet, make a couple of +1/-1 adjustments, and that is it. It certainly is deadly enough. Anytime anyone fires at you, there is a chance you will bite it. My character took 9 points to the abdomen from a bad guy with a rifle. If Rich had rolled higher on the damage, it could have been lights out for Eugene.

We haven't had any casualties yet but it is only a matter of time if we keep stirring things up. We do have healing available through psi powers, and that has saved a few PCs.

I'm not very knowledgeable at all on firearms, but the risk rules do what I believe they are supposed to do, which is really create some serious tension and concern anytime anyone points a firearm at you.