BRP Superheroes Projects?

[BMonroe]

No comment.

[seneschal]

Holy handcuffs, Batman! First BRP fans, now the Seattle police. Seems a superhero can't get an even break these days.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/odd-15749658/seattle-superhero-arrested-accused-of-assault-26895615.html

[pulpcitizen]

Having embarked on writing a Supers BRP monograph, and looking at the Big Gold Book as the toolbox, too many of the tools to hand just don't complement each other to make a satisfactory four-colour simulation. While there is room for lethality that may be associated 'grittier' comic books, the systems are still very unwieldy and require a number of individual fixes and tweaks.

My preferred solution would be to start again and create a new whole-cloth powers system that is flexible enough to create effects that are reminiscent of the existing systems without slavishly following their internal mechanics. I have the basics of a system in mind, and have done so since I made the personally sad call that my project just wasn't working as-was for me. It is hard to summon the motivation to start from scratch in terms of the work that would require.

By the way, thanks to those board members who helped me out while I was pursuing my monograph project.

So my thinking is that to work, an effective BRP needs a nice and elegant new powers system rather than combining multiple existing systems inelegantly.

Sorry if this post seems a tad personal in my reflections.

[Mankcam]

Surely you could tweak it by giving the characters more creation points to play around with during character creation, and you could make a few Powers up if need be?!

I thought you would need a wider range/scope of Powers, but starting from scratch seems a little dismal.

I've played GURPS Supers, WW Aberent (excellent setting) and Savage Worlds Supers, I haven't played BRP Supers but it looks like it could do the job with a few tweaks.

Apparently Mutants & Masterminds is the bible for creating Supers these days, it has been applauded quite a bit on other rpg forums.

Sad to hear you shelved the project.

Having said that, I keep saying I'll run a BRP Supers and never get around to it. It would probably be more Watchmen-level with scope to power-up, but I must concede that I love the visceral combat of BRP/RQ3, and whenever I do actually run games it tends to be a fantasy ancient/medeival setting, so maybe that is more a BRP strength than Supers. I have been thinking of using Super Powers for RQ3 to emulate abilities gained from Heroquests and such, I'm not sure if that'll work or not. But that's not really a Supers game though.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Mankcam

[seneschal]

Sorry to hear leonmallett's project is dead. As someone who cut his superhero teeth on Champions, BRP's suite of powers seems a bit limited, although the Superworld PDF has a broader catalog of them. However, I've built several character concepts successfully with the Big Gold Book, so it is doable. I've used the super powers to create the abilities of more than one fictional critter as well.

[pulpcitizen]

Surely you could tweak it by giving the characters more creation points to play around with during character creation, and you could make a few Powers up if need be?!

This is the crux. I created a lot of extra powers, simply to cover all the evident gaps. Compound that with mis-matching Power systems, and compound further with affixing tweaks upon tweaks and the issue becomes whether or not it is in fact worthwhile basing the system upon the existing Powers options.

The narrow focus of the (excellent) Agents of the Crown is workable. The broad spectrum of the gamut of 'typical' supers (from four-colour through to grim and gritty) much less so.

I thought you would need a wider range/scope of Powers, but starting from scratch seems a little dismal.

But is is not just new Powers; it is also those which evidently don't work well or balance well on a cost-scale. If using point buy, then costings inevitably are important, and a cursory examination of the relative costs of defensive and offensive Superpowers highlights a big problem that is extant across that Powers set.

I've played GURPS Supers, WW Aberent (excellent setting) and Savage Worlds Supers, I haven't played BRP Supers but it looks like it could do the job with a few tweaks.

As above, I would argue that to get a satisfactory outcome worthy of someone else's investment requires more than a 'few tweaks'.

Apparently Mutants & Masterminds is the bible for creating Supers these days, it has been applauded quite a bit on other rpg forums.

Sad to hear you shelved the project.

Thanks for the thought. It was not an easy decision to give up on something I had invested a lot of time and development in.

Having said that, I keep saying I'll run a BRP Supers and never get around to it. It would probably be more Watchmen-level with scope to power-up, but I must concede that I love the visceral combat of BRP/RQ3, and whenever I do actually run games it tends to be a fantasy ancient/medeival setting, so maybe that is more a BRP strength than Supers. I have been thinking of using Super Powers for RQ3 to emulate abilities gained from Heroquests and such, I'm not sure if that'll work or not. But that's not really a Supers game though.

I think there is a role for a BRP-powered supers game, but it needs to be either very narrow scope (like Watchmen sans Dr Manhattan or like Agents of the Crown), or requiring a dramatically revised or replaced Superpowers system. The latter is something that does interest me, maybe when I have recovered the energy.

[Mankcam]

Yes, the more I look into Powers, the more I see there is alot of work here to do the Superhero genre justice. I can see your point about it being 'more than a few tweaks', thats for sure. I guess the BRP Powers are taken from the Superworld rules, and it's showing its age - maybe if the BRP BGB gets revised down the track it will look at updating some of the rules to overcome the obstacles inherent in the system.

[pulpcitizen]

Yes, the more I look into Powers, the more I see there is alot of work here to do the Superhero genre justice. I can see your point about it being 'more than a few tweaks', thats for sure. I guess the BRP Powers are taken from the Superworld rules, and it's showing its age - maybe if the BRP BGB gets revised down the track it will look at updating some of the rules to overcome the obstacles inherent in the system.

And being fair to Jason Durrall, I think keeping the WoW version of Superworld was a Chaosium decision (or at least I believe that is the case).

[Mankcam]

Yes, I think Jason Durrall did a great job with BRP BGB, and I like how he collated many different Chaosium games to bring us a great generic rules toolkit. If another edition is ever published, however, I would prefer a revision based upon input from the gamer population; this would be much better than just putting a new cover on the same rules. Not meant to be viewed as a criticism of BRP however, as I love the BGB and BRP still remains one of my favourite rpg systems. I guess BRP is great at simulating down-and-dusty combat scenes, and perhaps that's not the usual way the Superhero genre is portrayed, so I can see why it isn't the best fit for a Supes game.

[Atgxtg]

And being fair to Jason Durrall, I think keeping the WoW version of Superworld was a Chaosium decision (or at least I believe that is the case).

I dont kniow whose decision it was, but IMO it was the wrong one. WOW Supers wasnt really playable. thats kina why the boxed set was done up. The core BRP rules are a bit to down to earth and realistic for a four colored comics supers campaign. It's not really BRPs fault. Superheroes campaigns are very differernt from other types of gaming. Where as most campaign settings have a certain underlying "laws of reality" to them, Superheroes settings use the reality of the comics.

[seneschal]

On the other hand, the WoW Superworld (which can be downloaded free from this site's links section) has a lot of nifty powers that got left out of Big Gold Book. Maybe we could borrow a few.

[Simlasa]

If another edition is ever published, however, I would prefer a revision based upon input from the gamer population

I don't know... which 'gamer population' are you thinking of asking? When I've seen lists of ways people would like to 'fix' BRP they usually make me cringe.

The problem with superhero gaming isn't with BRP or it's age or whatever... it's the superhero genre and trying to cram the whole of it into one rule system and expecting it to play out like the comics... which are chock full of plot contrivances and hand-wavium and other authorial manipulation that doesn't work nearly as well in RPGs.

ICONS is about the only thing I've played that felt close.

Superhero comics are particularly reliant on visuals too... decent art helps to distract from the huge amounts of silliness going on.

As has been mentioned, BRP will do certain styles of focused supers just fine... but to go further into trying to be just-like-comics I think you're in for a headaches.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Simlasa

[Atgxtg]

IAs has been mentioned, BRP will do certain styles of focused supers just fine... but to go further into trying to be just-like-comics I think you're in for a headaches.

I think the way to do it would be the opposite approach that what people havwe been doing so far. Rather than using BRP Gold as the core and moddiing it for Supers, I think it would be better to use the Superworld Box Set as the base and add BRP elements to it. The Box set did address most, if not all the problems with tuning BRP into a Supers game.

Of coruse you gotta have the Superworld Box Set to do that.

[pulpcitizen]

I think the way to do it would be the opposite approach that what people havwe been doing so far. Rather than using BRP Gold as the core and moddiing it for Supers, I think it would be better to use the Superworld Box Set as the base and add BRP elements to it. The Box set did address most, if not all the problems with tuning BRP into a Supers game.

Of coruse you gotta have the Superworld Box Set to do that.

And then it isn't anything to do with a BRP monograph or supplement really, is it? And since the OP was asking about BRP Superhero projects after all...

[rust]

Of coruse you gotta have the Superworld Box Set to do that.

For most purposes the PDF should be good enough ...

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=82099&filters=0_0_0_0_40050

[Atgxtg]

And then it isn't anything to do with a BRP monograph or supplement really, is it?

I dont see why not. The BRP mpnograph is mostly a retread of older Chaosium products. If the RQ3 stuff can (and has) been rerelased as BRP why not Suerworld? Vierually all the stats and terms are compatible, and most interchangable, with BRP.

And since the OP was asking about BRP Superhero projects after all...

And the fastest, and one of the best ways to do a BRP Supers project would be to base it off the Superworld Box Set. It's not like Chaosium has been shy to reusser older products for BRP.

[pulpcitizen]

I dont see why not. The BRP mpnograph is mostly a retread of older Chaosium products. If the RQ3 stuff can (and has) been rerelased as BRP why not Suerworld? Vierually all the stats and terms are compatible, and most interchangable, with BRP.

And the fastest, and one of the best ways to do a BRP Supers project would be to base it off the Superworld Box Set. It's not like Chaosium has been shy to reusser older products for BRP.

I suppose I just mean that with its own system, the (non-WOW) full Superworld doesn't require BRP does it? Hence it wouldn't be a BRP Superhero project as such. Semantics maybe, and no slight intended.

[Atgxtg]

I suppose I just mean that with its own system, the (non-WOW) full Superworld doesn't require BRP does it? Hence it wouldn't be a BRP Superhero project as such. Semantics maybe, and no slight intended.

No slight taken. I think that Box Superworld does adress and solve most of the problems tat BRP has with Supers, and most of those solutions can be ported right over to BRP.

For a "full. four color" Supers campaign, most of the Box WoW adjustments, or somethin glike them, are needed. So it would save us the trouble of reinventing the wheel.

[The Scarecrow]

Hi guys, any news about BRP'S superheroes project? How is it possible that all the super themes has been stopped to the old and obsolete Box Superworld?

[DreadDomain]

Hi guys, any news about BRP'S superheroes project? How is it possible that all the super themes has been stopped to the old and obsolete Box Superworld?

It was mentioned up thread that the project was stopped

[DreadDomain]

I'll agree with those saying that a BRP Super project should start off Superworld instead of from the BGB. It could be from scatch as well but that would make for a lot more work.

I will disagree though with the system's inability to produce high end games. BRP is very scalable and by just continuing the double every +8 progression on the SIZ chart you will end up with Spider-Man STR at around 70 and Superman at around 200. Within that range, the damage difference will be high enough that Supe will trash Spidey but also tight enough that he will not just vaporize him. Lethality of the system is an issue but there are easy work around (can't remember what was SW solution).

The only draw back is the actual lack of complete and coherent power system.

[seneschal]

To see what is possible with the BGB as it stands, check out this thread:

http://basicroleplaying.com/showthread.php/2626-The-Investigators-vs.-Eternia!/page2

I also would like the powers to have more variety and flexibility, but by raiding all five of Basic Roleplaying's powers systems I've been able to create reasonable facsimiles of certain Eighties TV super villains. Lethality is an issue. In general, the characters I've built can dish out lots of damage but can't necessarily take it any better than an ordinary human PC in good fantasy or science fiction armor. Whoever hits first will tend to win. That's quite unlike the source cartoons, where opponents can pummel each another endlessly without doing much lasting harm. Of course, in the midst of a campaign, we'd expect the PCs and villains to exchange as many taunts as blows and to do a lot of sneaking around instead of just standing ten yards away from each other at high noon and blasting away.

[The Scarecrow]

No! :,( God damn! I've just accept Superworld as standard or decide to play other superheroes' system Why this decision? I remember that in the last year there was someone that spoke about a fan-made monograph about supers...

[1d8+DB]

The problem with playing four-color superheroes with a mechanistic system like BRP is the huge range of powers available, from the simply highly skilled, The Dark Knight, to near-gods, like the Man of Steel. For this wide range narrative, systems, like HeroQuest or Atomic Sock Monkey's Truth And Justice give you more wiggle-room.

Because, you could, and eventually, see an issue where Spiderman, through some amazing, narrative contrivance, defeats Galactus.

Though I imagine BRP would work for most Gamers, who are fine with not playing characters who can reverse time by circling the earth at FTL speed.

Edited February 4, 2012 by 1d8+DB

[DreadDomain]

The problem with playing four-color superheroes with a mechanistic system like BRP is the huge range of powers available...

True. This is exactly what we see with HERO, GURPS, M&M and other more or less crunchy systems. Superworld was also built that way.

from the simply highly skilled, The Dark Knight, to near-gods, like the Man of Steel. For this wide range narrative, systems, like HeroQuest or Atomic Sock Monkey's Truth And Justice give you more wiggle-room.

I'll be the odd duck in the room here but I disagree with those who say that narrative systems like HQ are better at simulating four-color supers than simulationist systems. Sure, as written HQ is better than BRP simply because BRP is not really developped on that front. HQ, like most narrativist systems has it a bit easier because by its nature, it is very rule light (the "one rule to rule them all" approach) and for a game like this to work properly, it requests that GM and players alike very well know the genre played and fully collaborate to tell the tale. And this is exactly why I do not buy the narrative systems are better at simulating please insert than simulationist systems. In essence, my opinion is this, take the GM and players needed to successfully tell a tale in a good narrative system and put them in a good simulationist system and they will succeed as well. Actually very crunchy systems like HERO and GURPS also have mechanics to improvise powers/abilities/skills/whatnot not written on the character sheet. HERO specifically is very good at having Batman and Superman in the same game because what Supe will have in raw power, Bat will have in skills and gears.

Because, you could, and eventually, see an issue where Spiderman, through some amazing, narrative contrivance, defeats Galactus.

Which in any game, narrativist or simulationist, needs a good deal of GM/players storytelling collaboration.