Horse archery

[soltakss]

By the way, I've just read your post in the Introductions thread.

Now I know who you are, I won't mention that we are working on Horse Archery rules as you originally wrote them ...

[Zit]

Simon, you read your emails too fast

Yes, I already wrote something (not 100% like your suggestion however), but it never had been play-tested and I was not sure it was the best rule. I have now some more ideas (from the forum as well as other sources) about how to better describe this skill and the conditions under which it has to be used.

[vagabond]

I think the rules as written are sufficient with only minor tweaks.

It makes sense that if one were to be concentrating on improving one's ride skill and one's bow skill, that one would be spending time figuring out how to both simultaneously. This fits the RAW where less than 50% in either than you must roll against both (or multiply them together for a single roll), but once either or both skills exceed 50% (slight deviation from RAW - as Simon noted, if one skill exceeds 100%, then multiplying them together creates a condition where you are better at shooting from horseback than either shooting on foot or riding without using a bow), you use the lessor of the two skills as your cap.

However, I would also add this (to allow some sort of application of a cultural advantage):

1) shooting from horseback is a difficult action, and a 25% (or whatever) penalty is applied to both skills. This penalty may optionally be reduced when mastery of either ride or bow or both is achieved (mastery in each skill provides a 10% bonus, therefore mastery in both would yield a cumulative 20% bonus, or only a 5% penalty total. Or, mastery in both removes the status of a difficult action).

2) certain cultures get higher starting skill values for ride and bow to reflect their cultural tendency to be excellent mounted archers. One could also make it a cultural advantage that it is not a difficult action for certain cultures.

3) use or MRQ's legendary abilities - prerequisites for Mounted Archery would be member of a certain culture, and/or mastery of ride and archery, removes the status of it being a difficult action

Ian

[Zit]

I think the rules as written are sufficient with only minor tweaks.

Right. Ride skill rules + difficult action (x1/2). All in the BGB.

use or MRQ's legendary abilities - prerequisites for Mounted Archery would be member of a certain culture, and/or mastery of ride and archery, removes the status of it being a difficult action

Mounted archery as a skill -not an ability- available for some cultures only.

And some details like prerequisites, limitations, bows, stirrups, Parthian shot, etc. This is the way is see the things now.

[vagabond]

Right. Ride skill rules + difficult action (x1/2). All in the BGB.

Mounted archery as a skill -not an ability- available for some cultures only.

And some details like prerequisites, limitations, bows, stirrups, Parthian shot, etc. This is the way is see the things now.

OK, but I still do not think a separate skill is necessary to give some cultures an advantage over others. And, I think adding a separate skill brings in further complications. An ability works much cleaner in that is gives certain cultures a boost (or, more appropriately, removes the penalty) while allowing other cultures to possess the ability to a lessor extent (and, allows for PCs to live with a culture and gain the ability as opposed to having to learn a new skill). It also keeps the core skills ride and bow as the main tools to which the rules apply evenly.

Ian

[Zit]

It is quite elegant and simple although a bit binary. But one of my goal is to have rules that are fully comptabile for as much settings as possible, using concepts from the core rules only whenever possible. Abilities are not in the rules -as far as I know. Any GM using abilities-rule is free to replace the skill with an ability, or to make it a power like the martial arts in the Celestial Empire or whatever. Could be proposed as option.

[vagabond]

It is quite elegant and simple although a bit binary. But one of my goal is to have rules that are fully comptabile for as much settings as possible, using concepts from the core rules only whenever possible. Abilities are not in the rules -as far as I know. Any GM using abilities-rule is free to replace the skill with an ability, or to make it a power like the martial arts in the Celestial Empire or whatever. Could be proposed as option.

The abilities in "3" were only a suggestion. You could easily implement "1" and "2" - use the rules as written, but for a cultural advantage, the action is no longer Difficult but Average, there could be bonus points given at character creation to both Ride and Bow, and you could also allow the chosen culture(s) to just roll against the lessor of the two skills instead of rolling against both skills when they are below 50%. You could also choose to allow the chose culture(s) to roll against the lessor skill, but use the higher skill as a Complimentary Skill.

Again, I dislike adding skills and try to avoid doing so wherever possible. IMHO, this is one of those cases where an additional skill really isn't necessary.

Ian

[frogspawner]

(Aside: I think it's "lesser of two", and a "lessor" is someone who leases something. Sorry!)

[Atgxtg]

What if:

1) A normal character must use the lower of his Bow or Ride skill when shooting from horseback, as normal.

2) A character with Horse Archery can use his Horse Archery skill instead of Bow, and is not limited by his Ride skill. Additionally Horse Archery skill starts off as the average of Bow and Ride, although it can be improved like other skills.

[vagabond]

What if:

1) A normal character must use the lower of his Bow or Ride skill when shooting from horseback, as normal.

2) A character with Horse Archery can use his Horse Archery skill instead of Bow, and is not limited by his Ride skill. Additionally Horse Archery skill starts off as the average of Bow and Ride, although it can be improved like other skills.

Again, Horse Archery becomes an extra skill that really isn't necessary. You can just create the cultural characteristic that gives the same bonus. Further, with separate Bow and Horse Archery skills, it becomes possible to improve in Horse Archery but not Bow, thus becoming a better archer on horseback than when standing on firm ground. In my opinion, that really doesn't make a lot of sense.

Ian

[Zit]

If you create a separate skill, then you have to ensure that skill is never higher than both ride and bow.

Just as you said. Just limit the skill to bow or ride.

Skill/cultural characteristic is a question of taste. Both solutions work. I like the simplicity of the cultural trait but 1- it has to be reserved to some professions (a shaman or blacksmith with horse achery?), which has a taste of D&D's classes, and 2- it is not a concept of the basic rules, which I try to stay as close as possible. A skill gives more flexibility and allows for instance to give an advantage to a profession like mounted archer. But when running a game and for simplicity, I would consider that for a NPC nomad light warrior, bow rating = horse archery rating, which in practice is like having a cultural trait.

[dragonewt]

What if:

1) A normal character must use the lower of his Bow or Ride skill when shooting from horseback, as normal.

2) A character with Horse Archery can use his Horse Archery skill instead of Bow, and is not limited by his Ride skill. Additionally Horse Archery skill starts off as the average of Bow and Ride, although it can be improved like other skills.

How about the "Horse Archery Skill is a circumstantial offset against penalties for using the Archery Skill when on horseback " that I mentioned earlier.

Eg:

Horseback Archery Skill at 30%, drops the penalty from 50% to 20%.

So an a Archer character with an Archery skill at 60% and a Horseback Archery skill at 30%, would fire at 40% when firing from horseback, and 60% when on foot (assuming the horseback penalty is 50%).

The skill could be broadened to "Horseback Fighting" to also counter the penalty for using skills on horseback, such as dodging and maybe lance and similar skills.

[vagabond]

Just as you said. Just limit the skill to bow or ride.

Skill/cultural characteristic is a question of taste. Both solutions work. I like the simplicity of the cultural trait but 1- it has to be reserved to some professions (a shaman or blacksmith with horse achery?), which has a taste of D&D's classes, and 2- it is not a concept of the basic rules, which I try to stay as close as possible. A skill gives more flexibility and allows for instance to give an advantage to a profession like mounted archer. But when running a game and for simplicity, I would consider that for a NPC nomad light warrior, bow rating = horse archery rating, which in practice is like having a cultural trait.

I disagree that it is not a concept of the basic rules. Don't various creatures get special abilities that are not necessarily skills, or allow them to gain bonuses or penalties to such skills? This existed across a number of BRP based games as well.

Ian