Players Reactions to Weapons tables

[golden wheel dancer]

Are you lot still going on about guns?

(yawns).

I resolved the thread-makers questions about the appropriateness of the level of firearm detail, to the gaming population at large, many posts ago.

Why are you still going on about guns?

I wonder?

ok Im out of here

[SDLeary]

For instance, in CoC 2" steel plate has 19 APs. InBRP a VIntage tank has 18 APs. A reasonable conclsuion is that vintage tanks have a little less than 2" of armor, or that they have more, but of lower grade steel.

Now, since 2" steeel plate will stop anything up to a .50 caliber bullet the damages should be such that those weapons can't kill a vintage tank.

But lets toss modern firearms out the window for a minute and just work with gold old fantasy weapons.

18Aps means that a guy with an axe can chop through a tank's APs.

So it is all interrelated.

Yes and no. I think this hinges on your definition of Vintage Tank. In this case, this description conjures up images of a British Mk III, German A7V, early French Renaults, etc. The .50 BMG round was designed as an anti tank round against these threats.

And, 19 points seems low for steel plate. Iron plate, yes, but not steel. Perhaps the higher APs simply need to be adjusted up. I think this might have to do with language differences more than anything else.

As for axes going through... it would have to be a crit with a maximum roll on a 1d6 DB... possible but not likely (the hit not the effect)... I got nuthin.

Personally I find Delta Greens damages excessive. With BRP's fixed hit points, a weapon that does 2D10+1d8+6 is practically an autokill. Likweise a 9mm pistol really doesn't do more damage that shoving a spear into someone's stomach.

While there are instances of people living (heroic CON roll?)... most people who get hit by a .50 in the trunk or head do die "immediately", or shortly after due to blood loss. Most of those who live get hit in the limbs. Also note, that the minimum on that weapon is 9... so a minimum roll is "survivable". Again, thats probably one of those abstraction issues.

Swords, separs, and axes are actually just as deadly as firearms. A lance chart is actually more damaging that a .50 caliber hit. More energy, more mass, more momentum, and it doesn't drop off after the initial contact.

So all the damages should be alternatives to each other and the armor and hit point ratings. As long as the number compare well to each other, there shouldn't be a problem. Changing one set of values, like going with Delta Greens gfirearm damages, means rethinking the others.

I'm all for more accuracy, IF it doesn't bog down an already (potentially) long combat sequence. I still haven't seen one which does this though.

SDLeary

[SDLeary]

I don't have my book handy, but the rule is (supposed to be) that using a weapon you don't meet the minimum requirements for makes your attacks Difficult (1/2 chance).

Oops! Your right. I totally missed the italics there. Perhaps the (1/2 chance) could be placed there as a reminder.

Sorry!

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

Yes and no. I think this hinges on your definition of Vintage Tank. In this case, this description conjures up images of a British Mk III, German A7V, early French Renaults, etc. The .50 BMG round was designed as an anti tank round against these threats.

That is just what I was thinking of when I was working on the vehicle design rules.

But, the thing is with the way the implae and crti rules work, it means that rigfles, heavy pistols, and SMGs can also kill those old tanks. While there was a 7,92 mm anti-tank round, most small arms couldn't hurt a tank.

And, 19 points seems low for steel plate. Iron plate, yes, but not steel. Perhaps the higher APs simply need to be adjusted up. I think this might have to do with language differences more than anything else.

Well that's from CoC. It's alittle low, but only because of the higher powered weapons. There is a problem with impales and shotguns too, but they could be spot ruled. The iplae system was designed with semi flexible armor over a soft human as opposed to several inches of RHA armor over a steel chassis.

I'mm thinking that for armored vehicles (as opposed to cars and trucks) you can only get the effects of the special if the weapon could penetrate the armor normally. THat way only the .50 cal and other big guns could hurt even a vintage tank.

As for axes going through... it would have to be a crit with a maximum roll on a 1d6 DB... possible but not likely (the hit not the effect)... I got nuthin.

How about a spear, 18 points gets though the armor and does DB. Or a lance charge against a vintage tank.

While there are instances of people living (heroic CON roll?)... most people who get hit by a .50 in the trunk or head do die "immediately", or shortly after due to blood loss. Most of those who live get hit in the limbs. Also note, that the minimum on that weapon is 9... so a minimum roll is "survivable". Again, thats probably one of those abstraction issues.

Very few die immediacy, most die a bit later from blood loss. It isn't quite as quick as you might think, either. In a way, the power of the 50 cal works against itself as far as killing humans. It tends to go right through and so dumps the minimum energy into the target.

9 points being survivable depends a lot on which rules set you are using. 9 points with hit locations is a lot meaner than 9 points without. And the 3 die bell curve, combined with impales kick up the lethality well beyond reason.

I'm all for more accuracy, IF it doesn't bog down an already (potentially) long combat sequence. I still haven't seen one which does this though.

SDLeary

Not all changes for accuracy would bog things down. Some other changes become a question of trade offs. Some things that some people consider very important other don't.

[SDLeary]

Errk. Hold the phone. RQ and SB don't apply. If we are talking about possible problems with BRP we need to stick to it's rules. If the game says minimum STR/DEX without any guidelines about what to do about it, then yeah, the requirements are sort of required. TO prevent whatever the penalty for being short might be.

Referencing these games is valid. They were the two combat heavy versions of BRP, and the vast majority of the rules are based on Stormbringer, with references and options from other BRP versions. Also, BRP is not in final print yet. Hence all the debate, which the author, Jason, is monitoring and participating in.

Now with that in mind. He did correct me on the penalty. See above.

I agree here. The Battet uses extensive prting, has a lot of recoil absoption and is fired braced on a bipod. Technically, I don't think any small arm should have a STR minimum. Anybosy can pull the trigger.

We're I'd see the peanlty would bein terms of recoil and response time. A guy with a 5 STR might get the second shot off a few DEX rank slower than a guy with a 15 STR. Maybe.

But overall, yeah, firing a Barrett from the ground is easier than firing a 30-06 or a .357M standing.

Probably something like:

STRx1.5 is used 2 handed

+5 STR if braced, bipod, etc.

+10STR for tripod.

If you want to go there.

About the only weapons that I can see where it makes a differecne are the large caliber hunting rifles. Even then it is more a matter of precieved recoil rather than actual recoil.

They still need to be able to hold a good chunk of the weight off the ground and on target (if on a bipod) or in both hands if in other firing positions. So, yes, some strength is required. (if on a tripod or pintle I agree with you)

As for this and the other stuff, if thats the way you see it, then house rule it.

SDLeary

[SDLeary]

That is just what I was thinking of when I was working on the vehicle design rules.

But, the thing is with the way the implae and crti rules work, it means that rigfles, heavy pistols, and SMGs can also kill those old tanks. While there was a 7,92 mm anti-tank round, most small arms couldn't hurt a tank.

Maxims also often defeated the early tanks. The 7.92 and 12.7 were going for the sure kill. If you look at the early designs of the AT rifles, they were often like oversized sniper guns. They often aimed at the driver position and got the kill that way.

Well that's from CoC. It's alittle low, but only because of the higher powered weapons. There is a problem with impales and shotguns too, but they could be spot ruled. The iplae system was designed with semi flexible armor over a soft human as opposed to several inches of RHA armor over a steel chassis.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that handguns and shotguns should NOT impale, but its not a deal breaker by any means. I also think that Criticals bypassing armor should not apply when talking about armored vehicles.

I'mm thinking that for armored vehicles (as opposed to cars and trucks) you can only get the effects of the special if the weapon could penetrate the armor normally. THat way only the .50 cal and other big guns could hurt even a vintage tank.

How about a spear, 18 points gets though the armor and does DB. Or a lance charge against a vintage tank.

See above.

Very few die immediacy, most die a bit later from blood loss. It isn't quite as quick as you might think, either. In a way, the power of the 50 cal works against itself as far as killing humans. It tends to go right through and so dumps the minimum energy into the target.

9 points being survivable depends a lot on which rules set you are using. 9 points with hit locations is a lot meaner than 9 points without. And the 3 die bell curve, combined with impales kick up the lethality well beyond reason.

Not so much so...

With Hit Locations, a hit in the trunk will knock you unconscious and start you bleeding at 1 pt per round. Thats at double or more than location value. Less than double it depends on where in the trunk you get hit.

Not all changes for accuracy would bog things down. Some other changes become a question of trade offs. Some things that some people consider very important other don't.

Lets see some options then mister!!

SDLeary

PS... Anyhow I'm off this subject... until the next time it comes up ;-)

[Trifletraxor]

It has separate tables which handle "Guns" and ammunition. The gun tables give the stats for the weapons, sans damage. Damage is given for the ammunition. Damages are slightly different to what is in Cthulhu, but seem to follow the model of earlier versions of the game, and Cthulhu Now.

This sounds good. How are the weapons differentiated?

Neither am I, which is why immediately started improving upon i. It shouldn't be necessary to bring it up to the level of detail in CoC, but that is just what I'm trying to do. I'm not afraid to work on the setting I'm running to bring it up to our standard.

What are your fixes so far?

Maybe this points to a need for more detail on exactly what the STR/DEX minimum's mean, and how to calculate them. I've previously said there needs to be details on how to calculate this.

My experience with STR & DEX requirements in BRP so far is that they are all so low that they never come into play.

The tables for different calibers in these two are what I'm basing my gun tables on.

Something for the download section?

Personally I find Delta Greens damages excessive. With BRP's fixed hit points, a weapon that does 2D10+1d8+6 is practically an autokill. Likweise a 9mm pistol really doesn't do more damage that shoving a spear into someone's stomach.

Oops, that's quite deadly yeah.

To me guns in RPGs are just tools to make sounds and cause the bad guys to fall down. Within the core rulebook of a generic game, worrying over the differences between the styles, makes and models to me is as pointless as worrying over the fundamental differences between different varieties of "longsword" or different styles of maces (knobbed vs. flanged?!?!).

But damage-scores do matter. MRQ's 2d8 longbow f.ex.?

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

Referencing these games is valid. They were the two combat heavy versions of BRP, and the vast majority of the rules are based on Stormbringer, with references and options from other BRP versions.

Referred sure. But as far as how a rule would working BRP, no. You can't just expect anyone who buys the game to either own or go out and but a previous Chaosium product to look up a rule.

Also, BRP is not in final print yet. Hence all the debate, which the author, Jason, is monitoring and participating in.

Now with that in mind. He did correct me on the penalty. See above.

Yes. It was just that it would be wrong to put a "minimum requirement" on something without stating somewhere what that meant.

They still need to be able to hold a good chunk of the weight off the ground and on target (if on a bipod) or in both hands if in other firing positions. So, yes, some strength is required.

YEah, but not much. Virtually anyone can pick up and hold a rifle. Even the Barrett. We're not talking about lugging around an M2. I'd be more worried about STR in requires to burst fire than with a sniper rifle. Thats really the only place where low STR could be dangerous. Than and perhaps elephant guns, but a lot of that is covered by skill.

As for this and the other stuff, if thats the way you see it, then house rule it.

SDLeary

BVy that line of reasoning, why pull out a rule book at all. If I wanted to houserule everything I'd buy from Mongoose. Likewise, nearly every topic raised on this forum could have the same answer. "Houserule it."

The idea of a forum is to express different points of view and interact.

[SDLeary]

This sounds good. How are the weapons differentiated?

Simply by country and weapon name. So you need to know you are looking for an HK-MP5 SMG for example. Each weapon lists its caliber, magazine capacity, base range, and malfunction. You then reference the Damage Tables to find the damage of the round. After the tables is a small section that talks about different ammo types and their effects.

Other than that, all the weapons of a particular caliber are pretty much the same.

SDLeary

[TRose]

As far as taking out tanks with spears. It been done. OK the tanks where Italian L3 and during the Ethiopian war they where in ambush situation where the Ethiopians would at times flip them over like turtles and stab through the openings.

And far as damage guns do. I been in the military as a medic and later worked as an EMT . And even if guns seldom kill anyone outright ,most people who get shot dont want to play no more and end up on the ground moaning in pain. If you really want to be accurate most games should have a pain rule that says when you get hurt you need to roll to see if you hurt too much to do anything else. But who wants their character to take one point of damage and then spend the rest of the night having their character going owie , owie owie that hurts? We want our characters to be John Wayne types and shrug oof flesh wound that just amputate one limb with no problem .

But if some body want to do a supplement that give real details on different guns , type of bullets etc I would encourage them to do so. I still have my copy of The Armory by Kevin Dockery which was written for Espionage and Mercenaries Spies and Private Eyes . Still a very good book after 23 years.

[The Venomous Pao]

But damage-scores do matter. MRQ's 2d8 longbow f.ex.?

Right, of course they do. I don't see any damage values in the BRP-0 tables that seem wildly (or even moderately, to my sensibilities) out of whack. I don't own MRQ, nor am I interested in it, so I'm not sure where that applies.

In any case, all I'm saying is that to me the tables seem fine enough as-is for a generic (or perhaps multi-genre) and relatively low-crunch game. They're certainly ok enough for them not to be a focus going into the home stretch of public release. But that, of course, is just my opinion.

[SDLeary]

Referred sure. But as far as how a rule would working BRP, no. You can't just expect anyone who buys the game to either own or go out and but a previous Chaosium product to look up a rule.

Ahh.. you cut too soon. Note the sentence about BRP being in final print. Until we see the final product, referencing older games upon which the core rules are based on is valid

Yes. It was just that it would be wrong to put a "minimum requirement" on something without stating somewhere what that meant.

Agreed. And Jason know knows about it.

YEah, but not much. Virtually anyone can pick up and hold a rifle. Even the Barrett. We're not talking about lugging around an M2. I'd be more worried about STR in requires to burst fire than with a sniper rifle. Thats really the only place where low STR could be dangerous. Than and perhaps elephant guns, but a lot of that is covered by skill.

Pick up, yes. Pick up, aim, hold on target? Not necessarily. That is where the STR/DEX requirements come in, and skill. When the weapon is in use. As for burst fire, that should lower chance to hit IMHO.

BVy that line of reasoning, why pull out a rule book at all. If I wanted to houserule everything I'd buy from Mongoose. Likewise, nearly every topic raised on this forum could have the same answer. "Houserule it."

True... but your not talking about everything. You are talking about a part of the combat system that most people (based upon responses on this list and in my history of play) don't consider to be off to the degree that you and a few others do. Are the authors and publishers to make the somewhat extensive changes you describe in a settingless core rulebook to satisfy what appears to be a vocal minority, or should that be left to those who design specific settings for the game. Personally, I think the latter.

As for purchasing and houseruling from that other company, you could certainly do that too.

The idea of a forum is to express different points of view and interact.

Yea Verily!

SDLeary

[SDLeary]

But if some body want to do a supplement that give real details on different guns , type of bullets etc I would encourage them to do so. I still have my copy of The Armory by Kevin Dockery which was written for Espionage and Mercenaries Spies and Private Eyes . Still a very good book after 23 years.

OOOH I hates you.... you dirty hobbits.

One of the best supplements for multiple games ever. I regret getting rid of mine years ago.

SDLeary

[Joseph Paul]

As far as taking out tanks with spears. It been done. OK the tanks where Italian L3 and during the Ethiopian war they where in ambush situation where the Ethiopians would at times flip them over like turtles and stab through the openings.

Why bother flipping them? With armor of 6-14mm you could stab a spaer through them given the premise that 2" of steel=19AP (meaning what is the AP of 6MM plate if 2" is only 19 pts?). Once you get past using descriptors (Heavy, medium, light etc) and start applying RW numbers in the BRP games things start getting funky.

Storytellers can handwave such inconsistencies away but I really want more consistency and a good grounding in RW physics and materials.

Joseph Paul

[SDLeary]

Why bother flipping them? With armor of 6-14mm you could stab a spaer through them given the premise that 2" of steel=19AP (meaning what is the AP of 6MM plate if 2" is only 19 pts?). Once you get past using descriptors (Heavy, medium, light etc) and start applying RW numbers in the BRP games things start getting funky.

Storytellers can handwave such inconsistencies away but I really want more consistency and a good grounding in RW physics and materials.

Joseph Paul

I think you would have to find a way for Chaosium to retain a Physicist/Engineer then. None of the people there currently have science training that I'm aware of. That means that for a lot of this they are eyeballing the stuff to levels that make it reasonable in a Story, not RW. Note that they have not done a SciFi (where the eyeballing would work less) since Ringworld.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

I think you would have to find a way for Chaosium to retain a Physicist/Engineer then. None of the people there currently have science training that I'm aware of. That means that for a lot of this they are eyeballing the stuff to levels that make it reasonable in a Story, not RW. Note that they have not done a SciFi (where the eyeballing would work less) since Ringworld.

SDLeary

Not really. You just need people to look at the whole picture. I think a lot of this stems from the fact that RQ was not orginally desined with tanks in mind. I think BRP has a bit of a problem becuase of superpowers. Basically a 40 or 70AP tank works just fine in the game, until you get to a superhero. Generally superpowers probably don't scale up damage dice to the 20D6 point needed to be able to "fight" a tank.

Likewise criticals and impales were developed with sword and spear in mind, and foes wearing armor a few milimeters thick, and with exposed areas. Not for something with a couple of inches of armor.

[Atgxtg]

As far as taking out tanks with spears. It been done. OK the tanks where Italian L3 and during the Ethiopian war they where in ambush situation where the Ethiopians would at times flip them over like turtles and stab through the openings.

Uh, the L3s are at the low end of the tank scale. At around 3 tons, tri[pping one over is about as hard as flipping a truck. At the getting through 14mm of armor with a spear might, just might be possible.

I don't recall the Ethipians filipping any Panzer IVs? Do you.

And far as damage guns do. I been in the military as a medic and later worked as an EMT . And even if guns seldom kill anyone outright ,most people who get shot dont want to play no more and end up on the ground moaning in pain. If you really want to be accurate most games should have a pain rule that says when you get hurt you need to roll to see if you hurt too much to do anything else. But who wants their character to take one point of damage and then spend the rest of the night having their character going owie , owie owie that hurts? We want our characters to be John Wayne types and shrug oof flesh wound that just amputate one limb with no problem .

We do? Well gee in that case why not just go with increasing hit points? Personally I think a Pain roll is fine. Sure beats quadrupling the mortality rate for the sake of keeping things simple.

But if some body want to do a supplement that give real details on different guns , type of bullets etc I would encourage them to do so. I still have my copy of The Armory by Kevin Dockery which was written for Espionage and Mercenaries Spies and Private Eyes . Still a very good book after 23 years.

I got mine too, along with a few other sorucebooks.

The only thing is, any sort of change to the damage values will require redoing the armor tables too, at the least. For instance, if someone goes with Delta Green .50 cal machineguns that do 2D10+1D8+6, then anything short of a battleship will have tinfoil armor.

[Zane]

What are your fixes so far?

Mainly getting the CoC 5.6 Weapons Tables to include the new fields that are in the new book. I had to get ready last week to GM a game on Saturday, and this week I'll be doing the same. It is nice to finally get a couple sessions in. The group only carries something like 4 different weapons max, so realistically I'm doing quite well by having as much done as I do.

My experience with STR & DEX requirements in BRP so far is that they are all so low that they never come into play.

Our Gun-fondler carries a M1911A1 .45 Caliber Automatic, which if I remember right under the new rules requires a STR of 11, and he's STR 9.

Something for the download section?

Could be, though right now it is still a work in progress.

[Zane]

In RQ III is was a minimum to use the weapon without penalty. Each point of the characteristic below the minimum listed reduced the chance to use that weapon by 5% cumulative.

Having read through everything in the thread, this solution seems to make the most sense to me.

[Joseph Paul]

I think you would have to find a way for Chaosium to retain a Physicist/Engineer then. None of the people there currently have science training that I'm aware of. That means that for a lot of this they are eyeballing the stuff to levels that make it reasonable in a Story, not RW. Note that they have not done a SciFi (where the eyeballing would work less) since Ringworld.

SDLeary

You mean hire an author with a grounding in the sciences and put together a list for dedicated gearhead fans of the system to hash out methods and models? GURPS didn't seem to have a problem getting that done. >:->

I am tired of eyeballing things. The eyeballing is breaking down pretty quick in some instances too. SIZ is an example, in that it can represent four different things: actual mass, volume, reach, and is a constiuent in HP. This causes problems with dense objects, large but lightweight objects, and other permutations. It needs to be restated and have some of the qualities of SIZ broken out into other stats. Does it sound like I want a D100 Gurps? Well I don't. I want a BRP that can handle what GURPS can and do so with the elegance I found in Runequest where nearly every rule had a coherent explanation for why it did what it did. What is wrong with that as an expectation?

[SDLeary]

You mean hire an author with a grounding in the sciences and put together a list for dedicated gearhead fans of the system to hash out methods and models? GURPS didn't seem to have a problem getting that done. >:->

Funny, when playing GURPS way back when, I don't remember them having it right. In fact, way back when, Hero seemed to have a better grasp. >:->

And, I'll bet that most of the "got it" on the part of GURPS didn't start with the RPG crew, but with fans who wrote things up with additional/optional rules and submitted them for consideration. That game has been around as an active setting-less system for much longer.

I am tired of eyeballing things. The eyeballing is breaking down pretty quick in some instances too. SIZ is an example, in that it can represent four different things: actual mass, volume, reach, and is a constiuent in HP. This causes problems with dense objects, large but lightweight objects, and other permutations. It needs to be restated and have some of the qualities of SIZ broken out into other stats. Does it sound like I want a D100 Gurps? Well I don't. I want a BRP that can handle what GURPS can and do so with the elegance I found in Runequest where nearly every rule had a coherent explanation for why it did what it did. What is wrong with that as an expectation?

With SIZ, I agree... they should just say Mass and get it over with. Perhaps re-introducing body types. But I don't see it as a deal breaker for a game.

As far as handling what GURPS can, then perhaps something should be written up and submitted? Thats what is being done with Vehicle rules, IIRC. Perhaps if something is written up it can be released with a Genre supplement?

SDLeary

[Zane]

I don't know about everyone else, but I for one don't want to see BRP turn into something like HERO or GURPS. I played quite a bit of Champions 2nd and 3rd Ed. in the late 80's and early 90's. I purchased a ton of GURPS in the 90's, but have never played it. My personal view of HERO is that it's a great system, but it's best used for Superhero games. GURPS on the other hand has way to many rules. Personally I think both systems get in the way of Role Playing, to much of a session of champions was always spent dealing with the rules. With BRP, you do a quick dice roll occasionally and move on.

I like a lightweight rule set, which is what BRP has been. I'd like to keep the rules to the bare minimum where you simply use the rules that makes sense for the game you are running. I personally intend to run with the basic CoC 5.6 rules, but the things from "Basic Roleplaying" that make sense. The new book fills a lot of the holes in the CoC rules, not all, but most I've run up against.

What I think the ideal "Basic Roleplaying" book would be is something where you pop in a CD, or go to the Chaosium website, select the rules you want included, and it spits out a PDF that you can get printed and bound, or it sends a file to a "Print On Demand" place and you get your book from them a few days later. Even better if you can add your own material in. I've mentioned this before I know, and I've also stated that I don't think it is realistic idea. Who knows, I might just buy a copy of the finished book and cut it up to make the book I want. While I do think that the D20 and MRQ systems stink, I do like that the SRD's are available, and you can do exactly what I'm talking about here, make your own custom book.

[Atgxtg]

What I think the ideal "Basic Roleplaying" book would be is something where you pop in a CD, or go to the Chaosium website, select the rules you want included, and it spits out a PDF that you can get printed and bound, or it sends a file to a "Print On Demand" place and you get your book from them a few days later. Even better if you can add your own material in. I've mentioned this before I know, and I've also stated that I don't think it is realistic idea. Who knows, I might just buy a copy of the finished book and cut it up to make the book I want. While I do think that the D20 and MRQ systems stink, I do like that the SRD's are available, and you can do exactly what I'm talking about here, make your own custom book.

That actually isn't that unrealistic. Especially with PDFs and print shops. I recall a few RPGs that came in a binder by section. That makes it very easy to do that sort of thing.

Frakly, I suspect that most of the BRP rules won't be used in most campaigns. It's just that people will be picking different ones to suit their needs.

[The Venomous Pao]

Hear, hear! Put me in the "keep it simple" camp. I love Hero and used to like GURPS. They're both great toolkits. But what I like about BRP-0 so far is that it's exactly not a toolkit. It's a game. Yes, there are options but if I want to sit down with my players and say "ok, make fantasy characters. now!" we can do it without needing either to go through multiple steps to specify how magic powers should be built nor do we need to decide which countless supplements (wonderful as they may be) to choose from. We can just go and play.*

Then again, this is just my take on things.

* I used to be able to do that with Hero, but that was a long time ago and before the excellent Mr. Long truly revealed the toolkit hiding in the rules. I respect that stuff like nothing else, but I don't have time for it at this point in my gaming life.

[PK Games]

Having read through everything in the thread, this solution seems to make the most sense to me.

Thats how it works in Berlin '61 (shameless plug)