Players Reactions to Weapons tables

[Zane]

Unfortunately real life has utterly pervented me from devouring the book completely so far. Damn you real life!

That and for some reason I had to go and watch all the Planet of the Apes movies (and TV series)

Curse you!!! I still need to pick up the TV series (and cartoon series), and I've only managed to watch the first movie. If only I'd had the book on time, I'd have had a lot more time to read through it.

[PK Games]

BTW, what does "MOS Specific Skill" mean? I'm guessing that's Army specific.

Military Occupational Specialty (MOS). Such as Artillery (as in the existing write up), Counter Intelligence, Military Police, Combat Camera, Public Afrairs, Medic, Armor, Infantry and what not.

[PK Games]

I think it owuld be simple to make guns base % stat based and not have everyone loading up on DEX. Make it a simple formula of DEX+INT+POW/3 + weapon's base % modifier (some weapons are easier to fire). DEX represents natural hand eye coordination.

INT represents perception and attention to detail.

POW represents self confidence, steadiness and focus.

STR min is already listed for weapons.

[Joseph Paul]

For those with edition 0- Do the firearms have any inherent accuracy modifiers that affect skill?

[SDLeary]

I believe that the setting-less 16 page BRP has been out longer than GURPS has. The problem that I see is that Chaosium didn’t do anything about making the original BRP into a full fledged generic for 20+ years. I inquired about the status of several of the out of print Chaosium games several years ago and the reply I got was that Cthulhu made them more money than the others so they were concentrating on that and did not have the resources to develop anything else. So they lose out on 20+ years of fan participation.

Yup... your right. My bad. It has been out longer.

Yes. Like a lot of game companies, Chaosium believed that finished games around specific genres was a better approach. As to their not doing anything for the last 15 years or so... a lot of that has to do with lack resources. After the AH deal killed RQ (and some would argue that deal itself was the start), Chaosium had an amazing string of bad luck which has hampered them and forced them to concentrate on one line.

Some things happened last year which seems to have given them something of a jump start, so lets hope the BRP core is the start of a renaissance for them.

“Reality testing” of the GURPS rules started with SJGames so I will collect on that bet. I was part of the playtest for GURPS Man to Man long ago. One of the things that was made clear to play testers was that SJG was interested in the material being right. Was the first edition rough around the edges? I thought so and I thought that some things were not right but overall they did get a number of things to work such that you were not surprised by system specific faults. I did not switch to GURPS because I thought that the BRP derived games still had an edge, I prefered D100 to 3D6, and I found the GURPS stats limiting. Fast forward 20 years and I see that SJG has continued the commitment to getting things right even to the point of making some very noticeable changes in the current edition. Those changes have taken care of most of the gripes that I had except for the 3D6 mechanic.

I'm glad to hear that they had the resources to do this sort of reality testing. Unfortunately for Chaosium, they were not as lucky over the years. It also didn't help that the one person they had that even had a basic grasp of the weapons things moved on to video games.

I haven't looked at GURPS in years; I probably should ...currently doing the SotC thing.

Some have stated their desire for simplicity first and in-depth treatments of subjects to come later. They don’t want a toolkit. I don’t mind that at all as long as the game was made with a toolkit that will be internally consistent over a broad range of genres and give realistic results in those genres. I want the toolkit to be released later so that I can make internally consistent adventures/NPCs/settings/ etc that mesh well with the core materials and support how I think fantasy/space opera/westerns/historical/add-your-own-genre is supposed to run. Could I handwave or houserule my preferences into a game? Certainly, however I too am ‘of a certain age’ and I would prefer for that sort of rules wrangling to already be taken care of. That is why I am willing to pay for rules in the first place.

<Not directed at Joseph, but at the populace of this thread>

Yes, but if they don't have knowledge about the subject, in this case ballistics and to a lesser degree armor physics, then what do you do? You (the fans) have to make the case to them that this is needed. No, Jason is not the man for this. He has done his job and come up with this excellent compilation. You (fans again) have to convince the guys at Chaosium.

This is done by writing up a proposal and submitting it. Perhaps with a sampling of what you are offering. Jason has stated many times that proposals for supplements are being accepted.

There are, of course, other options. Like playing GURPS... or HERO >:->

<ducking!>

What I question is the ability of the BRP rules to be internally consistent over a broad range of genres and give realistic results in those genres. As an example Atgxtg has pointed out, and I agree, that the hit point system in the BRP games could use a change so that you get results that match what actually happens when people are injured, particularly with firearms. That is something that needs to be done now, not later. If you mess with those core things later you get the same thing you have now with RQ/SB/CoC/RW/SW where there were differences in chargen and combat rules that made for a large differences in how injurys affected the characters. There are several other disconnects between the foundational materials and what we know can be done for real and I think that ironing those out ahead of time would bring us a game that satisfies a very diverse set of desires. It can be simple but the base mechanics shouldn’t break when more layers are added. It can support many different genres and modes of play ie gritty/cinematic/godly powers/slapstick etc with minimal changes to the core and remain elegant.

OK.. I understand what your talking about. But, what you are talking about is essentially starting from scratch. Jason has already written and complied things, we are in final proofing/editing. If you or anyone else really thinks this kind of detail needs to be in the Core, then you have to contact Charlie NOW and convince him. Because he will have to release and authorize another round of playtests with the proposed rules changes, integrate them into what Jason has produced, lay things out again, proof again...

Thats what would need to happen. And it would probably cost Chaosium monies they don't have in the plan for the year. Which, based on their past luck, is bad.

And there would still be people who don't like what's been produced because it doesn't fit their vision.

Finally SD (is that an OK shortening of your handle?)

Nah! Only me mum called me SD! But you can call me S :cool:

I understand the point that you make about going ahead and writing up an add-on system. My concern is that it is the core rules that need to be looked at and it is no use writing anything that will seriously contradict those.

WOOPS! I didn't quote enough before! See above!

SDLeary

[NickMiddleton]

...In spite of everything I've just written, I think you have a valid point, and that it might make sense to say that a low enough DEX lowers your base chance, a midrange DEX has no effect, and a high DEX raises your base chance.

This effect is precisely what is achieved by using the skill categories optional rule of course...

:thumb:

Nick Middleton

[Atgxtg]

I think it owuld be simple to make guns base % stat based and not have everyone loading up on DEX. Make it a simple formula of DEX+INT+POW/3 + weapon's base % modifier (some weapons are easier to fire). DEX represents natural hand eye coordination.

INT represents perception and attention to detail.

POW represents self confidence, steadiness and focus.

STR min is already listed for weapons.

Well that was the way RQ did it. Base chance (some skills are easier than others) plus the category modfier.

STR was there mostly becuase RQ didn't have firearms, but was fdairly low (only about a difference of 4% between an average PC and a very strong one). THee is some justification though. While the table might have a min STR, It stands to reason that a guy with a 18 STR is going to handle the recoil better than one with a 10 STR.

[Atgxtg]

This effect is precisely what is achieved by using the skill categories optional rule of course...

:thumb:

Nick Middleton

Yeah. That's why I prefer using it.

Or some variant of it.

I've considered going with something along the lines of the Cat mods as base chances, just taking the 10 out of the equation. So the old RQ 3 Attack fomula would become INT+DEX+(STR/2), for about a 29% base chance for an average PC.

.

[Zane]

This effect is precisely what is achieved by using the skill categories optional rule of course...

You've got me there, I'd forgotten about those. On the other hand, this does bring up another point, an that is that there is a need for some sort of character generator (I do not have time to write one). How many players will want to take the time to figure out how their skills are adjusted if this optional rule is used? I know I wouldn't.

[Atgxtg]

You've got me there, I'd forgotten about those. On the other hand, this does bring up another point, an that is that there is a need for some sort of character generator (I do not have time to write one). How many players will want to take the time to figure out how their skills are adjusted if this optional rule is used? I know I wouldn't.

Fine. Then you don't get the bonus.

This is somethnig that I don't understand. The unwillingness, or rather inability to work out simple math in your head. You''re going to all sorts of trouble to work out weapon damages by caliber (BTW, you should really work them out by weapon, since bullet velocities are different based on what they are fired from. A .50 cal. from a Barret doesn't hit as hard as a .50 cal from a M2, nor does a .22LR round from a pistol hit with the same force as one fired from a rifle. It has to do with things like optimum barrel length ad gun porting), yet don't want to be bothered by something far more important-the innate abilities of the characters.

[Joseph Paul]

Like a lot of game companies, Chaosium believed that finished games around specific genres was a better approach. As to their not doing anything for the last 15 years or so... a lot of that has to do with lack resources. After the AH deal killed RQ (and some would argue that deal itself was the start), Chaosium had an amazing string of bad luck which has hampered them and forced them to concentrate on one line.

Oh I understand why they couldn’t. I am just bitter about, but in a good way.:shocked:

”Some things happened last year which seems to have given them something of a jump start, so lets hope the BRP core is the start of a renaissance for them.”

That may have been the sale/trade of the Moorcock license to Mongoose. Or not. I noticed that they had a flurry of CoC stuff come out also.

“I'm glad to hear that they had the resources to do this sort of reality testing. Unfortunately for Chaosium, they were not as lucky over the years. It also didn't help that the one person they had that even had a basic grasp of the weapons things moved on to video games.”

I casually fault them for not doing these things but I do have to say that I don’t know what the cost to a company is to set up and ride herd on a bulletin board. They should have some idea because that is how a great deal of the RQ:IV project was conducted. I don’t know when that occurred in the history of Chaosium’s downsizing so it may have come down to actual manpower things. But even at that you would be amazed at what fan resources can get you. I believe and some one correct me if I am wrong, that the Traveller Mailing List is hosted voluntarily by fans with the resources to do so. Hey wait Triff is hosting this one! Thank you Triff!

”I haven't looked at GURPS in years; I probably should ...currently doing the SotC thing.”

I have comepletely missed SotC, I will have to look up a review.

“<Not directed at Joseph, but at the populace of this thread>

Yes, but if they don't have knowledge about the subject, in this case ballistics and to a lesser degree armor physics, then what do you do? You (the fans) have to make the case to them that this is needed.”

Agreed. Hopefully this forum will allow some productive debate, idea swapping and allow some people with relevant skills and experience to speak up to help with that.

“ No, Jason is not the man for this. “

Agreed! He has plowed his field and deserves to be lauded for it. I have no problem with what I have seen of Jason’s work and I understand that he was working to the specifications of Chaosium.

“ He has done his job and come up with this excellent compilation. You (fans again) have to convince the guys at Chaosium.

This is done by writing up a proposal and submitting it. Perhaps with a sampling of what you are offering. Jason has stated many times that proposals for supplements are being accepted.”

And I am looking at doing that.

”There are, of course, other options. Like playing GURPS... or HERO

<ducking!> ”

Fo my project I was looking at GURPS and HERO as options. Then I found that BRP was coming back out. When it arrives is when I can make a decision about what is best.

“OK.. I understand what your talking about. But, what you are talking about is essentially starting from scratch. Jason has already written and complied things, we are in final proofing/editing. If you or anyone else really thinks this kind of detail needs to be in the Core, then you have to contact Charlie NOW and convince him. Because he will have to release and authorize another round of playtests with the proposed rules changes, integrate them into what Jason has produced, lay things out again, proof again...

Thats what would need to happen. And it would probably cost Chaosium monies they don't have in the plan for the year. Which, based on their past luck, is bad.

And there would still be people who don't like what's been produced because it doesn't fit their vision. “

Pretty much you are right. Which while I am an apostate I have no desire to be a dead one, martyred to the cause of contrariness. I fully realize that this project has too much inertia to be held up now and I really don’t want to incur the wrath of the faithful that have been waiting for this. It may take producing a supplement that will be geared towards detail oriented, gearhead gamers. Who knows? It may become the next set of Perrin Conventions!

Quote:

Finally SD (is that an OK shortening of your handle?)

“Nah! Only me mum called me SD! But you can call me S

”

You’re on S!

Joseph Paul

[Nightshade]

Fine. Then you don't get the bonus.

This is somethnig that I don't understand. The unwillingness, or rather inability to work out simple math in your head. You''re going to all sorts of trouble to work out weapon damages by caliber (BTW, you should really work them out by weapon, since bullet velocities are different based on what they are fired from. A .50 cal. from a Barret doesn't hit as hard as a .50 cal from a M2, nor does a .22LR round from a pistol hit with the same force as one fired from a rifle. It has to do with things like optimum barrel length ad gun porting), yet don't want to be bothered by something far more important-the innate abilities of the characters.

Even worse, its things you typically have to figure out only during character creation and downtime., so even the people who have trouble doing it on the fly are somehow crippled. When did it become impossibly hard to do simple addition and division during character creation and updating?

Its no wonder many people see the hobby draining away into the MMORPG market...

[Atgxtg]

I have comepletely missed SotC, I will have to look up a review.

Save yourself the trouble. Just go the faterpg.com and download the SotC SRD. Then you can make your own decision about the game. Take at loot at FATE (the parent system) while you're at it.

[Triff]

Even worse, its things you typically have to figure out only during character creation and downtime., so even the people who have trouble doing it on the fly are somehow crippled. When did it become impossibly hard to do simple addition and division during character creation and updating?

RQ character creation was a mess. Sorting out a characters skills took way to much time - and I have to help all but the most experienced players. It took time away from the gaming. If someone died during play, and had to make a new character, we had to take a half hour break from play. When all players had to make new characters for a setting, it took ages. It might have been "realistic", but it was still a mess. :cool:

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

RQ character creation was a mess. Sorting out a characters skills took way to much time - and I have to help all but the most experienced players. It took time away from the gaming. If someone died during play, and had to make a new character, we had to take a half hour break from play. When all players had to make new characters for a setting, it took ages. It might have been "realistic", but it was still a mess. :cool:

SGL.

I'm just starting to think that a lot of gamers just suck at math. At the MRQ forum there was this major uproar over how difficult is was to calcualte special success chances. Or the 5% crtical chance.

If someone can't figure out that INT 14, DEX 16, STR 12 is a +11% mod quickly in their head, maybe they should stick to checkers. It's not rocket science.

[Nightshade]

RQ character creation was a mess. Sorting out a characters skills took way to much time - and I have to help all but the most experienced players. It took time away from the gaming. If someone died during play, and had to make a new character, we had to take a half hour break from play. When all players had to make new characters for a setting, it took ages. It might have been "realistic", but it was still a mess. :cool:

SGL.

I'm sorry, Triff, but I'm just not seeing it; you figured your modifiers for your different categories, added them to any bases and bonuses from previous experience, and that was your total. That's putting down a couple dozen skills at most, doing some small addition and division to figure most modifiers, and then adding up, at most, three two digit numbers. I'm just hard pressed to find that excessively complex (and barring your participation, a player having to take a half hour to generate a character doesn't strike me as particularly excessive).

[drohem]

Yeah, I am there with you Nightshade. Although, I can empathize with Triff . Once you got the hang of creating a RQ character, it wasn't a difficult process and not that time consuming. Now, if it was your first RQ character, then I could see it being tedious.

[Nightshade]

I'm just starting to think that a lot of gamers just suck at math. At the MRQ forum there was this major uproar over how difficult is was to calcualte special success chances. Or the 5% crtical chance.

If someone can't figure out that INT 14, DEX 16, STR 12 is a +11% mod quickly in their head, maybe they should stick to checkers. It's not rocket science.

I think that's expressed a little harshly, but I can't disagree that if this is difficult math--well, I'm just boggled to know what to say. How do these people balance their checkbooks?

[Nightshade]

Yeah, I am there with you Nightshade. Although, I can empathize with Triff . Once you got the hang of creating a RQ character, it wasn't a difficult process and not that time consuming. Now, if it was your first RQ character, then I could see it being tedious.

Sure. Most game systems where character generation isn't mindlessly simple have a bit of a learning curve at the start. I'm just boggled at people who can't do RQ3 builds without help, at least after the first explanation. It borders on innumeracy.

[drohem]

Sure. Most game systems where character generation isn't mindlessly simple have a bit of a learning curve at the start. I'm just boggled at people who can't do RQ3 builds without help, at least after the first explanation. It borders on innumeracy.

Well, to be fair it probably takes several characters to get the swing down with no issues; not just after the first character created.

[Atgxtg]

I think that's expressed a little harshly, but I can't disagree that if this is difficult math--well, I'm just boggled to know what to say. How do these people balance their checkbooks?

I think it is too. Sorry. It's something that's hard to express without looking like one is questioning peoples intelligence. THere is only so may ways to say it.

As for the divide by 5 thing that had the people at the MRQ forum going into fits, I think I am questioning people's intelligence.

I can see how the mutipliers for every skill in RQ 3 could be a time consuming pain in the butt. But category mods were pretty simple. Mostly a figure once, and up 1% every so often when a character trained up a stat.

But I do wonder how much of this is preference and how much is ability. There does seem to be a group that balk if any sort of math is used at all.

Just what is the acceptable level? I thought "checkbook math" was a minimum. Just to be able to do damage, AP, Hit Points. And hit points is a double entry.

HP-(DMG-AP, min 0) is actually more complex.

[Nightshade]

Well, to be fair it probably takes several characters to get the swing down with no issues; not just after the first character created.

Its the "needing help" after the first one I'm having issues with; I sat down with the RQ3 rules the first time and did a character with no outside help; I had to hunt around for a few things, but its not like the process or maths were that hard. I'm not exactly a math genius.

[Nightshade]

But I do wonder how much of this is preference and how much is ability. There does seem to be a group that balk if any sort of math is used at all.

There's probably something to that; I know I've hit examples online of players who don't seem, honestly, to want to do any sort of work of any sort for a game, whether its doing a little math, writing up backgrounds, reading setting material or even learning the rules; maybe this is just a limited subset of that.

[drohem]

Its the "needing help" after the first one I'm having issues with; I sat down with the RQ3 rules the first time and did a character with no outside help; I had to hunt around for a few things, but its not like the process or maths were that hard. I'm not exactly a math genius.

Come on man, you know most people just don't get things the first time around .

Now, after 2-3 characters created, then I'm right there with you. I guess I just write-off the first one as a freebie, LOL.

[Trifletraxor]

If someone can't figure out that INT 14, DEX 16, STR 12 is a +11% mod quickly in their head, maybe they should stick to checkers. It's not rocket science.

Very observant of you, it's not rocketscience! :eek:

But, to be able to calculate that mod. in you head, you have to know how to calculate it. And in my group, I'm the only one who know the rules by heart.

(and barring your participation, a player having to take a half hour to generate a character doesn't strike me as particularly excessive).

If they could do it alone, that would be great! But unfortunately I have to help some of them quite a bit too. And for the skills, you first had to calculate the modifiers, then add them to the various base chances, then multiply your age above 15 with a number in a table and then add it all together - for skill after skill. I have personally no problem with doing it myself, but there's a lot of players who don't really care about the rules, and so do not learn the finer detail of character generation rules. They just want to play.

As for the divide by 5 thing that had the people at the MRQ forum going into fits, I think I am questioning people's intelligence.

RQ special and criticals are easy to calculate, but they to stop the game a bit, as it takes some seconds to figure out. Dividing by ten takes just a glance, nothing more.

There does seem to be a group that balk if any sort of math is used at all.

I prefer as little as possible to get the job done, while still maintaining a "realistic" feel. That way the rules get mroe in the background, and more focus can be put on actual play.

SGL.