Players Reactions to Weapons tables

[Atgxtg]

Very observant of you, it's not rocketscience! :eek:

But, to be able to calculate that mod. in you head, you have to know how to calculate it. And in my group, I'm the only one who know the rules by heart.

But since it is generally a figure one sort of thing. Can''t they do it with the book in a few seconds. I'll admit that I did program a handhelp computer to figure out the bonuses and then tried to beat it. But since CAT MODS changed rarely, I fdon't think they would cause trouble.

Now the x2 per year, x4 per year thing for all the skills did slow things down for us. That could have and probably should have been simplified (I'd have gone for increments of 5%, with x1 =5% and give players something like 25-50 free skill points per year).

If they could do it alone, that would be great! But unfortunately I have to help some of them quite a bit too. And for the skills, you first had to calculate the modifiers, then add them to the various base chances, then multiply your age above 15 with a number in a table and then add it all together - for skill after skill. I have personally no problem with doing it myself, but there's a lot of players who don't really care about the rules, and so do not learn the finer detail of character generation rules. They just want to play.

I can see the per year thing getting tedius. Cat Mods aren't nearly as much work though.

I can see why my old idea of figuring out six cat mods as the base chances appeals to you. Write them down on the sheet and even those who want to avod math can probably do it six times and be done with it.

RQ special and criticals are easy to calculate, but they to stop the game a bit, as it takes some seconds to figure out. Dividing by ten takes just a glance, nothing more.

For me diving by 5 takes the same glance. Dividing by 20 is also a glance. All you need to know is 30-50-70-90 and 110.

I prefer as little as possible to get the job done, while still maintaining a "realistic" feel. That way the rules get mroe in the background, and more focus can be put on actual play.

SGL.

Good except all rules are a trade off. THings like cat mods take a little more wrok buit make stat much more meaningful.

Of course there are some RPGs that do away with stats, making them advantages, and are written with the assumpption that task are being attempted by average people.

[Zane]

Fine. Then you don't get the bonus.

This is somethnig that I don't understand. The unwillingness, or rather inability to work out simple math in your head. You''re going to all sorts of trouble to work out weapon damages by caliber (BTW, you should really work them out by weapon, since bullet velocities are different based on what they are fired from. A .50 cal. from a Barret doesn't hit as hard as a .50 cal from a M2, nor does a .22LR round from a pistol hit with the same force as one fired from a rifle. It has to do with things like optimum barrel length ad gun porting), yet don't want to be bothered by something far more important-the innate abilities of the characters.

It isn't simple math, it is more like determining what type skill each one you have is, and then looking at the chart as to how many points to increase, or decrease it. From a quick read of the optional rule this morning it personally strikes me as cumbersome, and something most people won't want to bother with in character generation.

I might be wrong, but at face value, it looks to significantly increase the amount of time needed to create your character, while offering minimal incentive to go to the trouble. Of course if your character is tweaked to be high in all the right stats, then it will be worth the effort.

Of course if you are low in the wrong stats, then your character will take penalties, yet another reason I don't expect this to be a popular optional rule.

[Atgxtg]

It isn't simple math, it is more like determining what type skill each one you have is, and then looking at the chart as to how many points to increase, or decrease it. From a quick read of the optional rule this morning it personally strikes me as cumbersome, and something most people won't want to bother with in character generation.

Well depending on how the character sheet is set up.

RQ used to set the sheet up by categories, you only figured out the car mods one, and then went down the row and added it to the skill.

And yes, that is simple math.

I might be wrong, but at face value, it looks to significantly increase the amount of time needed to create your character, while offering minimal incentive to go to the trouble. Of course if your character is tweaked to be high in all the right stats, then it will be worth the effort.

Its a minimal increase in time (the time it takes to do six simple calculations) and the big payoff is that it makes the stats meaningful. Otherwise there really isn't much difference between a 10 DEX and a 20.

Of course if you are low in the wrong stats, then your character will take penalties, yet another reason I don't expect this to be a popular optional rule.

In other words, people will only want to play with the rules that help them and ignore the ones that don't. I suppose there are players like that. I also suppose I wouldn't want to play with them. I've gamed with a group who can remember every rule when it is in their favor and forget it when it works against them. I don't game with them anymore. In their defense I'll point out that they were playing under a GM who did the same.

[Zane]

Its a minimal increase in time (the time it takes to do six simple calculations) and the big payoff is that it makes the stats meaningful. Otherwise there really isn't much difference between a 10 DEX and a 20.

I was in a hurry when I read through the rule this morning so I might be wrong, but I took it to be on a per skill basis, and that it isn't a calculation.... Oh.... Geez.... Let me guess, you figure out the modifier for each skill group, then you simply add or subtract that number from each base chance for the skills that are part of that group. Okay, at that point this makes sense, becomes far more usable, and only adds a couple minutes.

In other words, people will only want to play with the rules that help them and ignore the ones that don't. I suppose there are players like that. I also suppose I wouldn't want to play with them. I've gamed with a group who can remember every rule when it is in their favor and forget it when it works against them. I don't game with them anymore. In their defense I'll point out that they were playing under a GM who did the same.

Well if what I wrote above is right, consider my statement this morning to be the result of someone that is a bit frazzled today. A group like you describe above would drive me crazy. But then as I'm the only one with the rules, and the others have at best read a small portion of the rules I'm free to largely do as I wish. Sometimes I do ignore the rules, as I don't want them getting in the way of the story that is being crafted. The main thing my players know is that I tell them how many dice to roll, and if they're lucky I might tell them what it means. More often than not I either look at a copy of their character sheet, or ask to see theirs, and tell them what happens after they roll, they typically have no idea what they're rolling against on their character sheet or why they're rolling! An obvious exception to this is combat.

[Atgxtg]

Let me guess, you figure out the modifier for each skill group, then you simply add or subtract that number from each base chance for the skills that are part of that group. Okay, at that point this makes sense, becomes far more usable, and only adds a couple minutes.

Bingo! Or at least that is how is was with RQ. I believe the equvalent categories in BRP are similar if not identical. So someone with a Combat skill category modifier of +10% would all 10% to add his combat skills.

Well if what I wrote above is right, consider my statement this morning to be the result of someone that is a bit frazzled today.

[Zane]

But most of the players I've run over the years, would want to figure just how things worked.

The campaign I'm running has been going for over four and a half years now. Most of that time they've been on the wrong track, as they keep ignoring the same key clue I periodically try to hit them over the head with. I think they're finally on the right track and about to wrap things up. While they've been off track, they've had some interesting adventures.

[Atgxtg]

The campaign I'm running has been going for over four and a half years now. Most of that time they've been on the wrong track, as they keep ignoring the same key clue I periodically try to hit them over the head with. I think they're finally on the right track and about to wrap things up. While they've been off track, they've had some interesting adventures.

I mean in game mechaics terms. What to roll for damage, the effects stuff like that. As for having a clue as to what to do when and how..well, I'd like to think that my past grounds desired that, but previous experience has not given me conclusive evidence to support that hypothesis.

Or Darwin's. :eek:

[Zane]

I mean in game mechaics terms. What to roll for damage, the effects stuff like that. As for having a clue as to what to do when and how..well, I'd like to think that my past grounds desired that, but previous experience has not given me conclusive evidence to support that hypothesis.

Or Darwin's. :eek:

I was in a bit to much of a hurry on that last post, not only are they still largely clueless about what's going on in the campaign after over four and a half years, but they're still largely clueless about the mechanics of the game as well. I'm the only one with the CoC5.6 book, but plan on trying to convince them to buy their own copy of "Basic Roleplaying" once the final is available. I really think they should have their own copies. I'll most likely even pick up a 2nd copy of the final for myself so I have a copy to mark up (if not cut up).

[SDLeary]

I have comepletely missed SotC, I will have to look up a review.

Joseph Paul

Save yourself the trouble. Just go the faterpg.com and download the SotC SRD. Then you can make your own decision about the game. Take at loot at FATE (the parent system) while you're at it.

It is different. A bit crunchier than HQ, but not by a great deal. It is FATE/FUDGE. SotC itself is Pulp, ala 20's 30's gangster stuff, radio serials, King Kong, etc.

Best place for a sample: Evil Hat Productions Wiki: Spirit Of The Century

Or if you prefer fantasy: Evil Hat Productions Wiki: Lord of the Rings

Now back to our regularly scheduled debate.

SDLeary

[SDLeary]

It isn't simple math, it is more like determining what type skill each one you have is, and then looking at the chart as to how many points to increase, or decrease it. From a quick read of the optional rule this morning it personally strikes me as cumbersome, and something most people won't want to bother with in character generation.

I might be wrong, but at face value, it looks to significantly increase the amount of time needed to create your character, while offering minimal incentive to go to the trouble. Of course if your character is tweaked to be high in all the right stats, then it will be worth the effort.

Of course if you are low in the wrong stats, then your character will take penalties, yet another reason I don't expect this to be a popular optional rule.

This is somewhat easy to resolve though. You just don't add the Skill Category bounus into the skill. Reference it after you roll your skill. If you make the skill roll, and the bonus is not a negative, go no further. If you miss the roll, see if the difference is covered by the bonus.

That also means that when stats change, you only have to deal with the bonus entry, not fiddle with each skill.

SDLeary

Edit: Woops! Posted too soon!

[Kloster]

I'm sorry, Triff, but I'm just not seeing it; you figured your modifiers for your different categories, added them to any bases and bonuses from previous experience, and that was your total. That's putting down a couple dozen skills at most, doing some small addition and division to figure most modifiers, and then adding up, at most, three two digit numbers. I'm just hard pressed to find that excessively complex (and barring your participation, a player having to take a half hour to generate a character doesn't strike me as particularly excessive).

Same experience for me. And whatever the system, I usually spend more than 30 mn for creating a character.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

I think that's expressed a little harshly, but I can't disagree that if this is difficult math--well, I'm just boggled to know what to say. How do these people balance their checkbooks?

Considering the current state of worldwide banking systems, they don't.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

Same experience for me. And whatever the system, I usually spend more than 30 mn for creating a character.

Well, Triff's made it clear the problem is they need his help. Frankly, that sounds to me more like people who can't bother to learn the rules, and I only have a very limited tolerance for that; especially since if they have to have their hands held here, they probably need it in play, too.

[Kloster]

Well, Triff's made it clear the problem is they need his help. Frankly, that sounds to me more like people who can't bother to learn the rules, and I only have a very limited tolerance for that; especially since if they have to have their hands held here, they probably need it in play, too.

On that, I agree.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[PK Games]

Depends on what kind of game you are playing. In superhero settings I prefer to build the characters for the players, based on their ideas, suggestions and wants, but thats just to keep power levels in check.

[Trifletraxor]

Well, Triff's made it clear the problem is they need his help. Frankly, that sounds to me more like people who can't bother to learn the rules, and I only have a very limited tolerance for that; especially since if they have to have their hands held here, they probably need it in play, too.

There's only one rulebook!

SGL.

[Nightshade]

There's only one rulebook!

SGL.

That's a problem in and of itself, but that doesn't stop people from reading the appropriate sections during odd moments. The whole RQ combat chapter was, what, maybe twenty pages long? And honestly, the first thing I'd have done was photocopy the character creation chapter and at least a few of the tables, assuming my players were all too damn cheap to buy their own.

[Nightshade]

Depends on what kind of game you are playing. In superhero settings I prefer to build the characters for the players, based on their ideas, suggestions and wants, but thats just to keep power levels in check.

I'd say that's a prima facie sign you and your players aren't on the same page on expectations there.

[Atgxtg]

I'd say that's a prima facie sign you and your players aren't on the same page on expectations there.

Yeah. With a su[ers game I'm not worried about keeping power levels in check. That's what supervillians are for--

"Oh, no It's Roboticus! He made from invicium and immune to even the Blaster's raw energy power. We have only one chance! Quick wimpy sidekick, go fetch the lemon juice, and hurry! Or we all doomed!"

[PK Games]

I'd say that's a prima facie sign you and your players aren't on the same page on expectations there.

I disagree. Ive played super hero RPGs for years, and when I ran the game at the club in college we had new players all the time. Me being more experienced with the rules and understanding the type of supers genre I was running, it was easier for them and me to maintain that balance and they in the end appreciated the effort.

The core players, the ones who came back every week for more, were always upset when a new guy came in and tweaked the rules for his or her character.

However I would love to see this world where every GM and all his players had the same expectations!

[PK Games]

Yeah. With a su[ers game I'm not worried about keeping power levels in check. That's what supervillians are for--

"Oh, no It's Roboticus! He made from invicium and immune to even the Blaster's raw energy power. We have only one chance! Quick wimpy sidekick, go fetch the lemon juice, and hurry! Or we all doomed!"

Yeah thats no problem when you are playing Super Friends (the old DC saturday morning cartoon), but if you are running a supers game along the lines of say Watchmen, or Outsiders or in Gotham or of a Marvel Knights level, you have to be careful not to abuse the powers. Or else you lose the sub genre you are trying to play in.

[Atgxtg]

Yeah thats no problem when you are playing Super Friends (the old DC saturday morning cartoon), but if you are running a supers game along the lines of say Watchmen, or Outsiders or in Gotham or of a Marvel Knights level, you have to be careful not to abuse the powers. Or else you lose the sub genre you are trying to play in.

Perhaps. The question is, do your players know what power level the campaign is being set at?

Oh, and the team of superheroes concept is better served by pretty much any example other than Super Friends. IMO the best thing that ever involved them was the "wazzaup" spoof.

[PK Games]

Perhaps. The question is, do your players know what power level the campaign is being set at?

Yes my players were well aware of what power level we were playing. But everyone has a different opinion of what that means. Some players listen 100% and think along the lines of balance, others still want that one kick ass power or weapon, and so forth. So what I found works best is for them to give me the ideas, wants and needs for the character as well as their background, description and personality and then I would craft a few drafts and variations. and allow the player to choose from three or four variations of essentially the same conceptual character.

Maybe the problem is less pronounced in Super-World (Super BRP), or even HERO system, but in DC Heroes or M&M I find it a major issue.

Also with the college club element if saved time for when a new player shows up. I was pretty good at just eyeballing stats and giving players what they wanted without violating the inherit balance of the game.

Plus the biggest issue I use to run into back when player's built thier characters was if I was to create "Roboticus" to be there to be challenge for the Thor type character, the Wasp type character was well out of her league. And I find it not fair to make other players suffer because one character has uber armor.

Besides, the stats are secondary in the long run. The story is what matters. So your method or my method, neither is right or wrong and neither implies that you or I or anyone else is not on the same page as their players.

Hell, thats almost as insulting to me as "Gun Fondler" was to others.

[Atgxtg]

Yes my players were well aware of what power level we were playing. But everyone has a different opinion of what that means. Some players listen 100% and think along the lines of balance, others still want that one kick ass power or weapon, and so forth. So what I found works best is for them to give me the ideas, wants and needs for the character as well as their background, description and personality and then I would craft a few drafts and variations. and allow the player to choose from three or four variations of essentially the same conceptual character.

No maybe about it. DC and M&M were designed for a more common 4-color comics campaign. SO the rules are set to allow for those kind of characters. You'd need to restrict the points of liit the points that can be put into powers for that sort of campaign to work in that setting.

It shoudln't. Ine staple of the comics (now there's a pun) is that all the team member contirubte. Going with your MArvel analogy, Waspe could probably fly into a some sort of opeing, air colling vent or whatever and blast past the armor. That is one of the keys with suerpgroups. Often villians aren't defeated head on matching power for power, but by being outsmarted. THat's why Hawkeye manages to defeat Ultron.

Of course that assumes that the players are thinking. I have run players who turn their brains off while playing supers. Very frutrating, since it takes a lot longer for them to win that way.

I don't think I mentioned a method, or what was right. Just wondering if your players were aware of what you wre aiming for. I hjave been oin games where the GM was going for A and the players for B. Or B, C, D, and E.

It shouldn't be. It is one of the top 5 problems with RPGs and comes up from time to time in almost any game. I used to game with a couple of people who were blind. There were quite a few times when they would do things that just didn't make sense out of the blue. Usually this was becuase they were not "on the same page" as the rest of us. Usally becuase they through thier characters were in one spot when the rest of us had them somewhere else (and on the battlemat).

"So you want to open the door on the left that opens out into space?!"

"No, not the one across the room, the one right in front of me, that leads to the armoury."

"Uh, wait a sec-"

In fact, I had a sort of reverse watchman experience. I was running a marvel campaign. The PCs were writing up kids and forming an ad hoc group. The one guy pretty mu went watchman on me, writing up a detective with no real abilities (no problem) and no desire to act heroic *big problem). He was expecting one thing, while the rest of the group (and the GM) were doing something different.

[Nightshade]

I disagree. Ive played super hero RPGs for years, and when I ran the game at the club in college we had new players all the time. Me being more experienced with the rules and understanding the type of supers genre I was running, it was easier for them and me to maintain that balance and they in the end appreciated the effort.

That hasn't got much of anything to do with someone playing with people they regularly play with, however; the latter fundamentally means that not only doesn't he trust his player's build philosophies, that he can't even systemize limits enough to be able to only vett them at the end. That seems to require a serious, serious disconnect between him and his players.

The core players, the ones who came back every week for more, were always upset when a new guy came in and tweaked the rules for his or her character.

However I would love to see this world where every GM and all his players had the same expectations!

There's a difference beween having a disconnect and such a severe one it can only be solved by generating someone's character for them.