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Players Reactions to Weapons tables


Zane

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At the risk of trying to achieve something positive out of this thread, here's a proposal:

Assume these requirements:

a) No additions to the list of weapons provided (other than the missing plasma pistol and dagger)

B)No alternate or variant systems (armor types, etc.)

c) Keeping things generic - no stats for individual calibers, models, etc.

d) The rules "work" as is (range, etc.) and changes should be working within them rather than alternatives

e) There must be a strong level of compatibility with Call of Cthulhu

What specific changes would you make to the weapons stats to have them better reflect a balanced and playable version of reality? For example, by this I mean accepting that you can only fire a heavy revolver once per combat round (12 seconds), etc.

This is your chance.

In most cases, the weapons stats were drawn from a wide range of existing BRP products, averaged or balanced to achieve the aforementioned goals.

I'm not really interested in arguments or criticisms or a lengthy back and forth on the various merits of suggested house rules. Radical changes or new systems would require playtesting, and I'm not going to push forward material that hasn't been playtested. That way would be... weasely. Values like STR/DEX, damage, etc. are fair game.

Note also that a great many footnotes disappeared from the tables I turned in and the layout of the manuscript. I'm working on getting those back. But for now, assume they don't exist and make suggestions as required.

I'm trying to get the edits to BRP wrapped up this weekend (Monday at the latest) so I can have it done and in the pipeline for Chaosium. I've recently had a massive family tragedy to deal with and want this book done and as many people happy with it as is humanly possible.

Also please assume I'm not an idiot. Many of the comments upthread have been extremely insulting and that's the reason I've stayed out of this thread.

(And as a bit of background, though I've not been in the military and my exposure to automatic/heavy weapons is limited, I grew up in the rural Pacific Northwest where: everyone had a rifle rack in their truck; hunting was a part of childhood; and at any given time my father had at least a half-dozen rifles/pistols/shotguns on hand, and my grandparents more so.)

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Ahoy Jason!

It's been pointed out to me by both Atgxtg and SDLeary that my understanding of the weapons table and especially the rules for firearms is lacking a great deal. Many thanks to them both!

So I would say that I would not change anything at this time.

If there are changes to be made, then they could come out as an optional errata sheet, downloadable from the website.

I'm really going to have to pry a certain book from someone's hands to read up on it.

Because otherwise, it'll just be us going around and around with everyone telling me "that's not how it works, dumba**! THIS is how it really works!"

To be fair, I'm adding the "dumba**" comment to myself, everyone has been pretty polite with me, and I don't recall anyone saying anything like that to me.

Yar!

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That's so scary on so many levels for a Brit that I wouldn't know where to start :)

Well, as a Brit, you could go annex some third world country suppress the local population, teach basic weapons training in public school and make grand claims about how the sun never sets of your Empire.

HArdly in a position to take the "firearm cultural moral high ground".

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Well, as a Brit, you could go annex some third world country suppress the local population, teach basic weapons training in public school and make grand claims about how the sun never sets of your Empire.

HArdly in a position to take the "firearm cultural moral high ground".

You want to talk politics, please do it in the Gamer's Cavern, or even better, per PM... :thumb:

SGL.

Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!
b1.gif 116/420. High Priest.

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Belay my last!

I thought of a couple of things...

On the Shotgun side of the house:

Clarify whether "automatic shotgun" is semi-automatic or fully automatic. I would prefer it to be semi-automatic.

Clarify whether "sporting shotgun" is semi-automatic, or pump action. Or both kinds, see below.

Clarify that on the double barreled shotgun, the stats are for firing a single barrel at a time, and firing both barrels simultaneously would (1.5x STR/DEX requirement or 2.0x STR/DEX requirement) and double the damage. I like the doubling of the STR/DEX requirement, personally.

Sporting shotguns normally have much longer barrels than "defense/riot" shotguns, which have shorter barrels, 24" or longer as opposed to 16" to 18" barrels. Which means that sporting type shotguns (both semiauto and pump) have longer ranges at which they are accurate.

So I would suggest adding a class called "riot shotgun" with slightly reduced range values, or slightly extending the range values for the semiauto and pump shotgun ranges. This could wait for an errata page.

If you think it would need playtesting and you are reluctant to change values, then I think just the first three clarifications is the important thing.

Thank you for your time, and for your consideration.

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Clarify that on the double barreled shotgun, the stats are for firing a single barrel at a time, and firing both barrels simultaneously would (1.5x STR/DEX requirement or 2.0x STR/DEX requirement) and double the damage. I like the doubling of the STR/DEX requirement, personally.

I kinda disagree with this one for a couple reasons. The STR and DEX requirements cover a couple of factors - being able to aim the weapon effectively and controlling recoil (for multiple shot weapons).

It takes no more STR or DEX to hold and aim a shotgun whether you fire one barrel or both at once, and the recoil becomes moot if you fire both barrels at once as your weapon is now empty.

There aren't really any rules for getting knocked on your ass if you don't meet the STR requirements for a firearm in BRP, only a negative modifier to hit. Just my two cents.

Help kill a Trollkin here.

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At the risk of trying to achieve something positive out of this thread, here's a proposal:

Assume these requirements:

a) No additions to the list of weapons provided (other than the missing plasma pistol and dagger)

B)No alternate or variant systems (armor types, etc.)

c) Keeping things generic - no stats for individual calibers, models, etc.

d) The rules "work" as is (range, etc.) and changes should be working within them rather than alternatives

e) There must be a strong level of compatibility with Call of Cthulhu

Well assuming those requirements I'd dump the table as a failure. THe weapon states are not CoC compatible. They just look like someone with no understanding of firearms just made stuff up. With CoC. a .50 caliber rifle, firing the same bullet as the heavy machinegun in use throughout the western world does 2d10+4. So a "machinegun turret" shouldn't be doing significantly more damage, since it is firing the same bullet. But in BRP it does 4d6+4. Thats quite a jump for the same round.

So CoC compatibility isn't so hot.

I'd certainly add weapons to the list, since several classes of weapons are missing, and some of the classifications are confusion. For instance the sporting rifle/bolt action rifle thing. I'd suggest adding a "battle rifle" (like the assault rifle but with 2d6+4 damage, and range charactersitcs between assault rifle and boilt action rifle), and chaging the sporting rifle to "light rifle".

What specific changes would you make to the weapons stats to have them better reflect a balanced and playable version of reality? For example, by this I mean accepting that you can only fire a heavy revolver once per combat round (12 seconds), etc.

Well, I for one wouldn't accept most of you "balanced and playable" assumptions. Many weapons in CoC did fire two or 3 times a round, and CoC let you fire faster at that at a penalty to hit.

In most cases, the weapons stats were drawn from a wide range of existing BRP products, averaged or balanced to achieve the aforementioned goals.

And that is why the stats are such a mess. Many of the "generic examples" with average damages like this are not really indicative of a "generic" weapon.

For example, designing the SMG damage based on the premise of "Okay I want the SMG to do damage between a pistol and a rifle" doesn't make sense if you are aware than over 90% of SMGs fire the same rounds as a "medium pistol".

I would have preferred the "generic" SMG to have stats closer to the majority of SMGs.

Likewise, as Freddie pointed out, the typical sniper rifle really fires the same caliber cartridge as a bolt action rifle and shoudl do about the same damage. In fact historically, snipers used to use the same rifle as the soldiers for sniping, only they would get one that had been "accurized". The Barrett .50 caliber rifle in CoC is actually the high end/overkill sniper rifle, as opposed to a "generic" example. So it is a lousy choice to base the design of the typical sniper rifle in the game on. It's sort of like using a lightsaber as a "generic sword".

I'm not really interested in arguments or criticisms or a lengthy back and forth on the various merits of suggested house rules. Radical changes or new systems would require playtesting, and I'm not going to push forward material that hasn't been playtested. That way would be... weasely. Values like STR/DEX, damage, etc. are fair game.

Two things:

Fisrt, then why did you read this thread and post? Lots of people aren't interested in this thread and haven't chimed in.

Secondly, if you didn't want oto introduced radical and uplaytested changes, then why did you do just that? According to the playtesters the CoC weapon stats were used during the playtest and the new generic weapon tables were not. So it seems like you did push forward material that hasn't been playtested.

Considering that you can impale and damage 25AP modern tank with a bolt action rifle, I'd say the tanks didn't get playtested either.

Note also that a great many footnotes disappeared from the tables I turned in and the layout of the manuscript. I'm working on getting those back. But for now, assume they don't exist and make suggestions as required.

And several people have, only to be torn apart by the BRP fanboys. Frankly if those people spent more time looking at the rules during playtest like they were supposed to instead of telling everyone how great the game is, we probably wouldn't be doing this now. I really looks like a lot of the playtesters didn't crack open the book.

I'm trying to get the edits to BRP wrapped up this weekend (Monday at the latest) so I can have it done and in the pipeline for Chaosium. I've recently had a massive family tragedy to deal with and want this book done and as many people happy with it as is humanly possible.

Also please assume I'm not an idiot. Many of the comments upthread have been extremely insulting and that's the reason I've stayed out of this thread.

Jason, I'm sorry for your personal troubles. I'm sorry for the work you need to do to get the correction done. But, neither have any bearing on the topic of firearm damages in the game. Really. If you didn't have personal troubles would you have written things differently?

(And as a bit of background, though I've not been in the military and my exposure to automatic/heavy weapons is limited, I grew up in the rural Pacific Northwest where: everyone had a rifle rack in their truck; hunting was a part of childhood; and at any given time my father had at least a half-dozen rifles/pistols/shotguns on hand, and my grandparents more so.)

Fine. But a lot of the weapons on the table look made up as opposed to examples of a typical weapon of the type mentioned.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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I kinda disagree with this one for a couple reasons. The STR and DEX requirements cover a couple of factors - being able to aim the weapon effectively and controlling recoil (for multiple shot weapons).

It takes no more STR or DEX to hold and aim a shotgun whether you fire one barrel or both at once, and the recoil becomes moot if you fire both barrels at once as your weapon is now empty.

Not quite, since the recoil does kick in while the shot is still running down the barrel. So firing both barrels does make the weapon a bit harder to control. The main reason for double barreled weapons is actually to give you a quick follow up shot in case the first one missed the animal, not to fire off two attacks at once. Most double barreled weapons are hunting weapons.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Not quite, since the recoil does kick in while the shot is still running down the barrel. So firing both barrels does make the weapon a bit harder to control. The main reason for double barreled weapons is actually to give you a quick follow up shot in case the first one missed the animal, not to fire off two attacks at once. Most double barreled weapons are hunting weapons.

I suppose it matters whether you consider both barrels going off simultaneously or not, which I was assuming to be the case as the poster I was responding to was talking about doubling damage.

I will admit I haven't actually fired a lot of shotguns, but with rifles in my experience the caliber (and hence recoil) has never really affected my accuracy in a significant way on my first shot. To me, the effect of weight of the weapon and round effects how much time it takes to zero in on another well centered shot.

Help kill a Trollkin here.

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As I mentioned, I'm looking for very specific examples of values to change in an attempt to appease BRP loyalists who find faults with the table presented.

A criticism of my methodology in the form of a sentence-by-sentence rebuttal of my post seeking such feedback is not particularly useful.

"Dumping the whole table as a failure" is not an option, especially when many of these values came directly from (or were derived from) Call of Cthulhu and related products.

I do not mind critical feedback at all, but frankly, I'm after useful information here. I could not have made my request more explicit.

I'll start a new thread with a repeat of the request.

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At the risk of trying to achieve something positive out of this thread, here's a proposal:

Assume these requirements:

a) No additions to the list of weapons provided (other than the missing plasma pistol and dagger)

B)No alternate or variant systems (armor types, etc.)

c) Keeping things generic - no stats for individual calibers, models, etc.

d) The rules "work" as is (range, etc.) and changes should be working within them rather than alternatives

e) There must be a strong level of compatibility with Call of Cthulhu

What specific changes would you make to the weapons stats to have them better reflect a balanced and playable version of reality? For example, by this I mean accepting that you can only fire a heavy revolver once per combat round (12 seconds), etc.

This is your chance.

The first change I'd make would be to throw out the "A" & "C" requirements, I have no problem with "B", "C", and "E". Now let me explain why.

Actually let me first ask, do you have access to the "1990's Handbook: Modern Background for Call of Cthulhu"? This is a legitimate source of material for you. The book comes close to doing it right, though I personally think Delta Green does a better job.

There is a lot to be said for a table giving stats for individual calibers, with that, you can get away with a far less complete weapons table. If someone has a player that wants to use "Weapon A", the GM looks at real info on the weapon and sees that it uses 9mm ammo, looks at the ammo table and determines that it does 1D10 damage. I still think that the book should have a less generic list of guns, more in line with what is found in the Call of Cthulhu rulebook. I really don't understand the desire to be so generic that wildly different guns are covered by the same exact entry.

While I think the weapons table is seriously flawed, others don't. Maybe it makes sense to basically leave the weapons table the way it is. However, if you do that, you really need tables giving damage stats for those of us that want a bit more realism.

I hope this is coherent, I need sleep.

Zane

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:lol:

Zane is reworking the guns-table to have damage being dependent on ammo, plus som other adjustments. Maybe you should get together with him on it. I'd love to see a "fixed" guns table in the download section (or the wiki).

SGL.

FreddyBoomBoom is supposed to be going over the tables I've been working on, so far it only has the CoC tables updated to include the info in the "Basic Roleplaying" book.

Realistically, the more I've thought about this, the more I like the solution used in Delta Green, they keep the caliber tables separate from the gun tables. I'd just as soon see the stats kept the same as they are in the various materials. I am wondering if generic STR/DEX ratings for individual calibers make sense.

The reason I like the caliber table is that there are some great weapons books already out there. Just use one of those and the caliber table. Or if one of your players has a real world source, you can quickly throw something together.

Zane

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I'm trying to get the edits to BRP wrapped up this weekend (Monday at the latest) so I can have it done and in the pipeline for Chaosium. I've recently had a massive family tragedy to deal with and want this book done and as many people happy with it as is humanly possible.

And seeing the new thread, rereading what you'd written here, and realizing I'd missed this, "A" and "C" make a bit more sense. I hadn't realized you were this close to wrapping things up. While I think a Caliber table is needed, just get this sucker in print. :)

I'm sorry to hear about your problems, and hope things are getting better.

Zane

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  • 5 months later...

I think the weapon tables are just fine. Consider that your chance of impaling doubles when firing at a range equal to or less than your DEX, one shot one kill is very likely in many scenarios. Haven't looked at the rules for aiming or scopes, but I seem to recall more than one spot rule that increases your effective skill (and thereby your chance to impale).

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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I'm after useful information here. I could not have made my request more explicit.

It isn't about the actual weapon tables, but in the Spot Rules for firearms the rule about keeping an empty chamber under the hammer hasn't been true for years. Modern revolvers use a transfer bar system.

I suppose the rule is there because it would apply to a 1920s CoC game, but you migth want to mention that.

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I really am curious here as to how you handle new characters after player death. If a campaign started a year ago, and everyone started with say 200 skill points, and someone dies, do they get 400 skill points at chargen because that is roughly where everyone else is in the game? I really am curious, because as I've said, I have never gamed that way.

Personally I'd give the player the 400 points but Id say "No skill over 75%", that would stop the new PC outshining anyone in their specialist area.

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Personally I'd give the player the 400 points but Id say "No skill over 75%", that would stop the new PC outshining anyone in their specialist area.

Well, I think this is a little bit too restricting. I would rather look at the other PCs and their skills before capping a new PC at 75%. If the other have top skills with 90%+ then he should allowed to have also 90%. The new PC should not have the feeling that he is inferior or dont have a speciality in comparision to the other players.

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