[JBE] My First Cult, Your Thoughts?

[dmccoy1693]

Hey everyone,

I've been looking at Legend and wanted to try my hand at it. I posted my first cult on my website. Check it out and tell me what you think. Would you be interested in a book of cults that can work in any campaign setting?

Thanks in advance,

[RosenMcStern]

Would you be interested in a book of cults that can work in any campaign setting?

No. If there is one thing that should be really, really setting-specific, that is cults.

Not that it would not be possible, but it would deviate from how the game is meant to be played.

[soltakss]

The post works as a mercenary organisation that happens to be a cult.

I think that this kind of thing would work as a generic supplement, as the cults are limited to the organization. These are like Guardians in HeroQuest, minor deities that are worshipped by a small, self-contained group of people.

This kind of cult doesn't seem to have a deity as its focus. If it did then it would have Divine Magic rather than just Common Magic. That's what makes it generic enough to be used in multiple settings.

[dmccoy1693]

Technically it was a Chivalric Martial Order and not a cult so I was incorrect in my terminology. No common deity at all. But otherwise, would you like to see something like this?

[RosenMcStern]

It can be useful, like any source materials. But it is really, really far from the philosophy of all RuneQuest stuff made so far.

To make things clearer: in 198x, when AH acquired the rights to RuneQuest, historical supplements started to appear, explaining what your Viking or Samurai could have looked in RuneQuest terms. Despite the (misplaced) complaints from someone who wanted "only Glorantha", these descriptions of historical cultures were very useful in making Fantasy settings, like Glorantha "more real". They are still Fantasy, as it is clearly stated that Orlanthi are "neither Celts, nor Vikings", but you have a good, solid starting points from which your fantasy settings can evolve, giving them a "realistic" feeling.

What you propose here are the Knights Templars made generic. What use are they? If you use the cult directly, it will give a "vanilla" taste to your campaign. Some players might appreciate it, but not players who are used to the RuneQuest tradition. They expect their cult to be historically grounded, or really unique. Your write up is neither of the two.

You might also make it "the real Knight Templars". But there is already a lot of stuff available for BRP and Deus Vult, written by Gareth Hanran, Matt Sprange, Soltakss and me, that is about the Knightly Orders, and explains literally everything you could wish to know about them. All people who read these forums will use those sourcebooks rather than your write-up, to make up their "on the fly" knightly order.

Some attempts at this kind of supplements were made years ago, with the first RQ OGL, by Seraphim Guard and Sceaptune and others. They did sell some copies, but I cannot remember them being so enthusiastic about the results. In fact, neither of these publishers chose to acquire a license from Mongoose once they pulled the first OGL, nor can I see them jumping on the bandwagon now that the game is OGL again.

You got my point, I hope.

[dmccoy1693]

But it is really, really far from the philosophy of all RuneQuest stuff made so far.

What you propose here are the Knights Templars made generic. What use are they? If you use the cult directly, it will give a "vanilla" taste to your campaign. Some players might appreciate it, but not players who are used to the RuneQuest tradition. They expect their cult to be historically grounded, or really unique. Your write up is neither of the two.

I don't want to sound dismissive, but I've heard this argument before when Traveller first came around. I have learned after alot of head banging against the wall that people that feel that way simply are not my customers. My customers tend to be those building their own campaign setting and do not have enough time to build every aspect of their campaign setting themselves and are looking for a little assistance. Or they want to tweek the preexisting setting with something they feel is missing. That is where I come in.

Take the "historically accurate" argument for a moment. I'm one guy with a day job. Mongoose has full time employees. I can't compete with them on the "historically accurate" angle. Doing so is just setting me up to fail. So I specifically go for, not even attempting to be historically accurate but is still fun to play. I understand there are people not interested in that. So I no longer feel "bad" when someone complains that it is not the one true way.

Like I said, I don't want to sound dismissive. I'm not. I understand your viewpoint. I also have learned that people that feel this way are not going to buy my products, no matter what I do.

Some attempts at this kind of supplements were made years ago, with the first RQ OGL, by Seraphim Guard and Sceaptune and others. They did sell some copies, but I cannot remember them being so enthusiastic about the results. In fact, neither of these publishers chose to acquire a license from Mongoose once they pulled the first OGL, nor can I see them jumping on the bandwagon now that the game is OGL again.

Now this is an argument that I do listen to. However, RQ =/= Legend. There have been more PDF sales of Legend than there have been of MRQ1 or 2. And the Monster and Equipment books are doing well as well. This means that more people are checking out Legend than before. Will that translate into Legend Compatible sales, I don't know. But I'm probing first.

Plus I don't know what SG's expected return on investment was. One thing I learned from being in the crowded Pathfinder market is how to control costs. So I can make a quality profit on little money. I don't know if SG was expecting higher sales nor do I know if they were controlling their costs well enough for the market size.

Edited January 25, 2012 by dmccoy1693

[lawrence.whitaker]

A few observations.

First Dale, I really like the Bronze Star. Its a great little fellowship organisation with a clear purpose, structure and hierarchy. You could slot it easily into many settings without coming across as 'vanilla'. I could see it working in Glorantha (Fronela someplace, or Seshnela), the Young Kingdoms (Jharkor), and mythic Europe. Nice job: clear, uncomplicated, and a great example of cult flexibility.

Second, is there a market for generic cults? Contrary to what Paolo believes, I think there probably is. MRQ1 didn't pull-in that many new people and probably managed to alienate a fair few more. Cults in that iteration of the game were not handled well. The format was difficult, and the Cults of the Glorantha books Mongoose produced were deeply flawed. However, MRQII and Legend have brought in many new people who've discovered the 'RQ/Cults' paradigm for the first time and like what they see. The revised, MRQII 'Cults of Glorantha' PDF on the RQ Archives has been a top seller for Design Mechanism: that signals interest in using cults but not having the time or inspiration to develop bespoke ones. Another factor is the number of times people have, on the Mongoose forum, queried how to go about cult design, how to create them, use real-life examples as inspiration and so on.

Yes, there's a market there. Yes, its probably the kind of market you're after. How big it is is the $64,000 Question. But to me, a book of generic cults, ranging in size and complexity and covering different socio-religious aspects would be a good thing. How could it not? The cults can either be used as they are and slotted into existing worlds; they can be tweaked so they do fit according to GMs' needs, and they can serve as inspiration for making your own. That's lots of utility. People do find cult creation either laborious, daunting or both. Having created more cults than I care to recall, I can fully appreciate their need for something that takes away the bulk of the effort.

Paolo also wrote:

Not that it would not be possible, but it would deviate from how the game is meant to be played.

I really don't understand what you mean Paolo. Just how are MRQII/Legend and, if you like, RQ6 meant to be played? I can tell you now that RQ6 will contain generic cult and other organisation examples designed to do what Dale's looking into. And, because RQ6 will be a generic ruleset, does this mean that I'm making a design choice that goes against how the game is meant to be played? I think you need to explain precisely what you mean by this statement.

Loz

[General Panic]

IMHO

paragraph 1 is sellable and rather good. It identifies an in-[any]-world need for the organisation that is a worthwhile bolt-on. I can take that, go think about how it fits/enhances my world, and it will spark further ideas as I work through the further implications. Likewise - the payment in shares bit. That's interesting...needs elaboration. A company of soldiers really is a 'company', after all (at least it was once)

BUT the rest is IMHO so vanilla as to be bit useless - "Ok, soldiers involved, let's give them some combat-oriented common magic". We can all do that part, in about 5 mins. Then the knights and squires bit...that's loaded language, arguably not really about mercenaries...definitely not about shareholders...etc. You get the point. What I and maybe others need is not that you do the write up of something very vanilla for me, but to do some thinking for me and put it in writing, because that's what really saves me time or gives me inspiration to spend a bunch of my own time. OK, so they attract people to join by offering training in martial skills and spells. That works, but its obvious. I wouldn't pay for it. Make an outfit who enforces mercenary contracts interesting because they do just that. Booty Merchants, Contracts, Funerals, Ransoms, Reparations, Repatriations, Prisoner Swaps, Talent Spotting, all the things that mercs and merc employers really need someone to do - make that lot interesting and work out how it provides play/scenario opportunities etc - that I'd pay for.

[dmccoy1693]

Thank you GP, I appreciate the feedback.

[RosenMcStern]

A

I really don't understand what you mean Paolo. Just how are MRQII/Legend and, if you like, RQ6 meant to be played? I can tell you now that RQ6 will contain generic cult and other organisation examples designed to do what Dale's looking into. And, because RQ6 will be a generic ruleset, does this mean that I'm making a design choice that goes against how the game is meant to be played? I think you need to explain precisely what you mean by this statement.

Loz

Loz, you know that there has been a precise pattern in how d100 gaming has evolved over the years. Maybe I should have said it uses to be played rather than meant to, but after 30 years I suppose it becomes the same thing. The solid production lines of d100 gaming have always been the very specific, high-fantasy ones with plenty of setting depth (Eternal Champion and Glorantha) and the historically grounded ones. The historical ones are used as models for the high fantasy, including all the detail about economics, society and the everpresent cattle stealing. This giving the "weird" cultures of the Multiverse or Glorantha a realistic feeling that vanilla settings like Forgotten Realms or Golarion lack. Ever wondered how the races of the Underdark survive, i.e. feed, for instance?

A gateway supplement that I remember that was really, really useful and innovative was RQ cities, but it was very, very different from a collection of generic examples, it was a tool for building your own adventures, more akin to the adventure generator in Deus Vult or to your "Cults and Guilds" than to the Order writeup that Dale presented here. For the rest, I fail to see any "vanilla" supplement for RQ being so successful. If anyone has different data please step forward. My data says something else.

In any case, Dale his betting his own money and time. I have just told him which kind of supplements have sold well over the last 30 years, and "generic fantasy" has always failed for d100. With "failed" being - well, I think we should warn him about a certain ritual that takes place at Castle Stahleck every Spring. If he does manage to sell Legend or RQ6 to the kind of customers who buy "generic" stuff, that is good and everyone will benefit from it.

Edited January 26, 2012 by RosenMcStern

[RosenMcStern]

Take the "historically accurate" argument for a moment. I'm one guy with a day job. Mongoose has full time employees. I can't compete with them on the "historically accurate" angle.

You have a day job? So do I. And Simon. And Gianni. This did not prevent me from making a book about one of the least known events in European history. I see it as a matter of preference (on both the writer's and the readers' side) rather than capability.

Now this is an argument that I do listen to. However, RQ =/= Legend. There have been more PDF sales of Legend than there have been of MRQ1 or 2. And the Monster and Equipment books are doing well as well. This means that more people are checking out Legend than before. Will that translate into Legend Compatible sales, I don't know. But I'm probing first.

Plus I don't know what SG's expected return on investment was. One thing I learned from being in the crowded Pathfinder market is how to control costs. So I can make a quality profit on little money. I don't know if SG was expecting higher sales nor do I know if they were controlling their costs well enough for the market size.

I think every publisher that did MRQ1 stuff in 2006-2007 got their money back and had some profit, so I think there was no cost problem. You can estimate how much profit they actually got from the fact that ALL publishers that did this "back in the days" have not announced new d100 products for the last three years, except Alephtar (and d101, but Newt uses his own system). You then check what Alephtar specializes in (so far). You do the maths.

It is not a matter of how much it costs you, IMO, but how big a return you get from what you do. I am positive I can make a decent return on selling Savage Worlds stuff, and I do have an official license (it's free) to sell SW, but I have not yet tried it because it is uncharted territory for us. I know the return that will come from a BRP supplement, SW will get me less (probably), so I prefer making a new BRP book rather than sailing the savage seas. We could try and make "Savage Worlds Rome" or "Savage England", sure - Adamant Entertainment did it for its Mars setting, originally d20, and it was a great success - but would this really appeal to the SW crew? I suspect this could become a risky bet.

This does not mean we never experiment, of course: we are currently selling a game that is almost diceless. But if I experiment, I certainly stay away from things that have proved not viable in the past.

That said, it's your time and money, so there is no one here who can prevent you taking the step. Good luck.

Edited January 26, 2012 by RosenMcStern

[rust]

Would you be interested in a book of cults that can work in any campaign setting?

First, I rarely play fantasy settings, and I prefer to develop my own setting

material, so I would not be a likely customer for this kind of product.

That said, I would be sceptical about a book with such a content, I think it

would be prudent to first "test the waters" with something that requires less

time and effort, like perhaps a few smaller and inexpensive PDFs (as you did

previously with Traveller creatures, robots, etc.).

[Prime Evil]

Personally, I think there's room for a variety of different approaches to the game - the idea of 'generic' faction write-ups may not appeal to everybody, but they certainly has a place. As Loz points out, sample factions may provide useful examples for newcomers. Even if they choose not to use the pregenerated ones, having worked examples can be valuable.

It's uncertain what the economics of releasing such a book would look like. Legend has been a bit of a surprise hit and so far no third-party publishers have tested the waters. Judging from the Mongoose forums, my guess is that many of the people picking up the game at the moment have little exposure to RQ or BRP and are discovering the system for the first time. This is awesome for those of us who have been involved with the system for a long time - an infusion of fresh blood is always welcome. It's also good news for Design Mechanism as they prepare RQ 6 as there might be a larger audience for the reboot. But it also means that these people don't have as much of an investment in the 'old ways' and may need some guidance to understand the ethos behind the system. For these people, providing some solid faction write-ups to get them started might be a good move - especially if the book ends with a discussion of how to create new factions of their own.

[lawrence.whitaker]

Loz, you know that there has been a precise pattern in how d100 gaming has evolved over the years.

No, I don’t know that there’s been a precise pattern. If anything its been quite haphazard. And I’m not trying to be obtuse Paolo; I genuinely haven’t seen much of a clear pattern at all.

Maybe I should have said it uses to be played rather than meant to, but after 30 years I suppose it becomes the same thing.

Not really. Your statement: ‘but it would deviate from how the game is meant to be played.’ Is very clear. Its also tantamount to prescribing how one should play RQ, BRP or anything else under the d100 banner correctly. There is no correct way. All roleplaying games should be played how the GM and players want to play it. No version of RQ or any other BRP game, come to think of it, has prescribed exactly how it should be played. Your statement is implying that if you use generic cults then you’re doing it wrong. Bad gamers! You’ve heard the term ‘Bad Wrong Fun’… well, your statement was precisely that!

The solid production lines of d100 gaming have always been the very specific, high-fantasy ones with plenty of setting depth (Eternal Champion and Glorantha) and the historically grounded ones. The historical ones are used as models for the high fantasy, including all the detail about economics, society and the everpresent cattle stealing. This giving the "weird" cultures of the Multiverse or Glorantha a realistic feeling that vanilla settings like Forgotten Realms or Golarion lack. Ever wondered how the races of the Underdark survive, i.e. feed, for instance?

Again, I disagree – and not for the point of disagreeing. The success or popularity of settings such as Elric and Glorantha is more to do with the depth and creativity of the original source material or the approach taken to the game supplements. As for historicals being used as a model for high fantasy; perhaps, but its probably more to do with the quality of research and presentation of the material, allowing for satisfying historical games to be played in those settings.

A gateway supplement that I remember that was really, really useful and innovative was RQ cities, but it was very, very different from a collection of generic examples, it was a tool for building your own adventures, more akin to the adventure generator in Deus Vult or to your "Cults and Guilds" than to the Order writeup that Dale presented here. For the rest, I fail to see any "vanilla" supplement for RQ being so successful. If anyone has different data please step forward. My data says something else.

Yes, ‘Cities’ was pretty good. ‘Cults, Factions and Guilds’ was a companion volume to ‘RQ Empires’ which, from the outset, was designed to be a metagame. I would think that a generic supplement, done well, with useful information, presented in an appealing way, has every chance of being successful. But I think you're also missing a key point, which I'll come onto later. The market is changing. What applied last year, two years ago or when MRQ first came out does not necessarily apply now...

In any case, Dale his betting his own money and time. I have just told him which kind of supplements have sold well over the last 30 years, and "generic fantasy" has always failed for d100. With "failed" being - well, I think we should warn him about a certain ritual that takes place at Castle Stahleck every Spring. If he does manage to sell Legend or RQ6 to the kind of customers who buy "generic" stuff, that is good and everyone will benefit from it.

Hmmm. ‘Eldarad’ and ‘Daughters of Darkness’ are ritually burned not because they’re generic, but because they’re very poor examples of settings and scenarios…

However I think the market is shifting. As Prime Evil points out, people are coming into Legend from different avenues where the old tropes of RQ/BRP just don’t apply. These, more than the likes of you and me, are the market where generic sourcebooks of any kind are likely to find an audience.

[Mankcam]

I can see both points. A generic supplement would be great for newbies to the system, whereas the more experienced GMs may prefer a setting specific supplement that goes into great depth.

Historically having generic supplements for RQ wasn't a great thing I don't think - I like RQ Cities but was it a big seller when AH put it out? A very useful resource in any case. I never went for RQ Gateway or Eldarad, and I expect they didn't do well . But what about Griffin Island? I loved the original, Griffin Mountain, and was horrified when it was was ported out of Glorantha as a generic fantasy setting for AH RQ, yet I suspect it sold reasonably well despite my views on on the setting change.

I think any product that will bring people to the system is good, but I would hate to see the market overrun with generic supplements at the cost of a decline in the very setting-specific supplements that many of us have come to love with the BRP-related systems.

[RosenMcStern]

This is turning into a debate about the market rather than comments about the write-up. But I suppose that all this will be useful to Dale, who has just decided to join the bandwagon of the d100 publishers.

Edit: removed content that the Opening Poster considers a waste of his time, in order to make room for more constructive criticism.

Edited January 26, 2012 by RosenMcStern

[rust]

All I can say about the Legend RPG market here in Germany is that I have the

impression that it does not exist. The three most frequented German roleplay-

ing games forums have only one or two posts about Legend, and until now no

one found it interesting enough to write a German Wikipedia entry, or to add

it to the lists of available games or games published by Mongoose. Compared

to the reactions to other new games, Legend is still rather invisible and either

an extremely slow starter or in danger to become an epic fail over here.

[dmccoy1693]

But I suppose that all this will be useful to Dale, who has just decided to join the bandwagon of the d100 publishers.

Wrong on all accounts with that sentence. There have been a few points of constructive criticism on this thread and it has been useful. But so far, I'm just ignoring all your comments, RosenMcStern. They're not helpful and you're just wasting my time. Like I said in my previous reply to your comment: you're not my customer so I am not bothering to listen to you. Someone who reads it and says, "I like this, but not this," is valuable feedback that I will listen to.

Second I have not "just decided to join the bandwagon of the d100 publishers." I decided to try my hand at it. I'm experimenting. The feedback is largely positive (some things that need changed, sure, but that's what experiments are for) so I may move forward. I may not. We'll see. And I can leave at any time. So I am not making a life-long commitment.

So far the only thing that your comments have told me is that you are prejudice against anyone that does not play your way. Whether you intended it to be that way, you have communicated that loud and clear.

[deleriad]

Well previous reply was lost in the mist and I'm wary of being trodden on in the clash of the titans but on the general point, I find generic resources quite useful as a short cut for my own uses. Yes it is nice to have bespoke, deep, well-integrated material for a particular setting but that is a rarity and requires the setting in the first place. Something like the idea listed by the OP has the virtue of giving me a little bit of text and some mechanics that I can reskin as I like.

That said, as friendly criticism, I didn't find the example to be particularly engaging or have anything in the mechanics that made it stand out. It wasn't 'bad' but was lacking, in my opinion, in inspiration. I wonder if another way that it can also be expanded is a bit like Traveller's 101 patrons (or how ever many they are now that inflation has hit) where the organisations have some random plot twists attached.

As to what will happen next in the BRP/RQ/Legend/d100 etc market, I of course know and am about to go and make my myself rich beyond my wildest dreams. I just need to get some really wild dreams first.

[RosenMcStern]

Wrong on all accounts with that sentence. There have been a few points of constructive criticism on this thread and it has been useful. But so far, I'm just ignoring all your comments, RosenMcStern. They're not helpful and you're just wasting my time.

Then it is not useful that I go on with this debate here. If Loz wishes to reply to my previous post, I suppose a PM is more appropriate.

I hope you ignored my "Good Luck" comment, too. If the rest of my considerations were misplaced, that one was, too.

Edit: I also took the liberty to remove all contents of my previous post except the quoted line, as you feel they are cluttering your thread and taking space that could be used for useful comments.

Edited January 26, 2012 by RosenMcStern

[lawrence.whitaker]

If Loz wishes to reply to my previous post, I suppose a PM is more appropriate.

Not really. We should agree to disagree, shake hands gentlemanly, and continue with our endeavours in the way we each prefer. There is one thing I'll comment on though:

Matt overflooded the market with cheap PDFs of your old ruleset

Pricing an electronic product at $1 is hardly overflooding the market. Its a very canny marketing move, and if it brings in new people to this side of the hobby, then its to be applauded.

(BTW, how do you feel when you see the medal "Platinum Best Seller" and then "Authors: L. Whitaker and P. Nash" written below it?)

Our chests swell with pride, and then we realise that we don't get a cut of the sales, and they deflate again. Hopefully they'll swell even more when/if the Platinum Selling title is RQ6...

[dmccoy1693]

Well previous reply was lost in the mist and I'm wary of being trodden on in the clash of the titans but on the general point, I find generic resources quite useful as a short cut for my own uses. Yes it is nice to have bespoke, deep, well-integrated material for a particular setting but that is a rarity and requires the setting in the first place. Something like the idea listed by the OP has the virtue of giving me a little bit of text and some mechanics that I can reskin as I like.

That said, as friendly criticism, I didn't find the example to be particularly engaging or have anything in the mechanics that made it stand out. It wasn't 'bad' but was lacking, in my opinion, in inspiration. I wonder if another way that it can also be expanded is a bit like Traveller's 101 patrons (or how ever many they are now that inflation has hit) where the organisations have some random plot twists attached.

As to what will happen next in the BRP/RQ/Legend/d100 etc market, I of course know and am about to go and make my myself rich beyond my wildest dreams. I just need to get some really wild dreams first.

Fair enough. Thank you for reading and giving feedback.

[Agentorange]

Our chests swell with pride, and then we realise that we don't get a cut of the sales, and they deflate again. Hopefully they'll swell even more when/if the Platinum Selling title is RQ6...

How so ? Do you not get royalties ? If so that's bad.....

[lawrence.whitaker]

How so ? Do you not get royalties ? If so that's bad.....

Its very common in this industry for writers, whether freelance or salaried, to be paid either a flat fee or a per word rate. Royalties on sales are very much an exception. Pete and I were both salaried and paid a flat fee. So, Mongoose owns, quite fairly and legitimately, MRQII and can take it and do with it as it pleases. So it might seem bad, but in reality we know the score. I've freelanced in RPGs for over 20 years and I've never once been on a royalty deal.

[Agentorange]

In response to the actual thread question I would probably buy something like that if it was interesting enough. I've been playing RQ/BRP for 30 odd years and like most folks started off playing in Glorantha so the whole cults thing is pretty familiar ( indeed it was the idea that the spells and skills reflected the god's sphere of influence that drew me into RQ ). Like a lot of folks I've got loads of cult outlines stuffed away in old folders etc etc. But I still find such products interesting even if I don't use the material as written I tend to strip mine it for useful stuff for my game or as inspiration. Sometimes it's just nice to see how someone else has handled an idea. On a more concrete note two things struck me

1) It might appeal more to those new to the hobby or to RQ/BRP/Legend. Old grognards like myself might think " seen this before...hell I've written this before " But those new to the game looking to set up a campaign or flesh out a game world might well find something covering mythological archetypes pretty useful, even if only to adapt themselves.

2) I guess the trick would be in designing something that isn't so generic that it's bland and boring, yet at the same time so detailed that it becomes setting specific. So...maybe the background setting and mythology would have to be reasonably generic to slot in nicely, but you could go to town on some interesting spells or skills, possibly some new monsters eg you have your generic fire god , but his priests can summon some interesting elementals...which you would stat up . Maybe you have a resonably generic sea god. but some interesting watery style spells.

In game speak I suppose I'm saying your fluff might have to be pretty generic, but your crunch could be quite detailed.