Is the BRP System Tough to Learn for "Casual Gamers?"

[Ars Mysteriorum]

Is the core mechanic difficult to learn and explain? Opposed rolls seem to be getting quite a lot of attention and flak and that has made me skittish.

What are some potential difficulties and/or hang-ups with the system?

I've only experienced BRP through Call of Cthulhu... so... explain it to me like you would to a three-year-old with ADHD and an IQ of 2.1.

Hand puppets and a little show might help.

[Rurik]

BRP is very easy to use for casual Gamers.

My wife is not a gamer, and the only game she likes is Call of Cthulhu. It is a really easy game to grasp because everyone inherently understands percentages. What Sneak 45% means is obvious to a non gamer. The difference between Libaray use 75% and Library use 25% is obvious.

You don't NEED to use opposed rolls, just use simple Spot and Sneak rolls for new gamers if you think they are too complicated to grasp at first. Honestly though, I think opposed rolls may be easier to accept for a new group of players who have not been conditioned by 20 or more years of BRP to think lower is always better. However the fact that people have been playing for almost 30 years without opposed rolls shows the system works without them.

[Shaira]

I can't actually think of an easier system for beginners than BRP. You can play CoC already, so basically you're playing BRP - there is no real difference. As Rurik said, a percentile based system seems to be "common sense" at first glance. It's intuitive, and once learned, it's damn hard to forget!

Opposed Rolls are a storm in a teacup. Have a look at what's written in the rules, you'll feel a lot better Some people are resistant to the idea cos it changes the way they've normally played BRP - to which I'd say, play exactly however you want to, it's just a game! For me, they're simple, elegant, flexible, obviously optional, and add a nice tactical touch to parts of the core game mechanic.

I certainly wouldn't judge how simple the system is from this forum! Most of us here are grognards fussing over minutiae, not a representative section of opinion at all!

Is there a downside to BRP? I'd say if there is, it's the fact that it lends itself to many different styles of play, and people seem to love developing houserules here and there, which if you try and puzzle your way through them can seem bewilderingly obtuse at times (as you've noticed ). Some people may hoard experience rolls like gold, others might dish them out liberally, some may make magic low power and scarce, others may dash around tooled up to the eye-teeth like Terminator. There is certainly no One True Way to play BRP, so you do have to be able to accept other people doing things very differently - but to be honest, that's only if you participate in a forum like this.

Other than that, honestly, I can't think of anything wrong with the system; on the contrary, I think it's the best system on the market. It wouldn't have kept my enthusiasm and interest for close on 30 years otherwise!

Cheers,

Sarah

[Celhan]

You don't NEED to use opposed rolls, just use simple Spot and Sneak rolls for new gamers if you think they are too complicated to grasp at first. Honestly though, I think opposed rolls may be easier to accept for a new group of players who have not been conditioned by 20 or more years of BRP to think lower is always better. However the fact that people have been playing for almost 30 years without opposed rolls shows the system works without them.

I'm going to chime in here, largely agreeing with Rurik. Opposed resolution is hard for people to grasp who already know how skill rolls work in (say) Runequest.

Opposed rolls come from Pendragon; with the exception of the fact that it's based on a 1d20 rather than 1d100 roll, Pendragon opposed resolution works the same way it does in BRP (1). Pendragon was one of the first RPGs my wife played, and still her absolute favorite. While an enthusisastic roleplayer, she doesn't read rulebooks (ever) and makes little effort to memorize rules. Pendragon with its "highest successful roll wins" was a snap for her.

When I ran a Pendragon-based game for a group including a long-time Runequest player, he had difficulty grasping the mechanics... but this was someone who really understood the rules of Runequest and had to discard some preconceived notions about how BRP-based games work. The other new players didn't have any trouble with it.

(1) Okay, there is the fact that Pendragon doesn't have special success, and criticals happen when you roll your skill or characteristic exactly (e.g., if you have Sword skill 12, you get a critical hit on a roll of 12). This might make it marginally easier to remember that "higher is better", although a critical success still beats a higher successful roll by your opponent, so it isn't best all the time.

[frogspawner]

It is a really easy game to grasp because everyone inherently understands percentages. What Sneak 45% means is obvious to a non gamer.

Exactly. I don't know any other game that shows abilities so intuitively.

As for potential difficulties, I gather the new BRP book may be a bit thick and hence possibly off-putting. But that's because it's got all sorts of different options in it. My point is, if you find some parts too hard for you or your players - don't use them. I think that's how it's designed. Even do that with 'core' mechanics at first, if you like - add extra bits later, if and when you're ready.

[The Venomous Pao]

I'm rather new to BRP myself (I played Runequest about two times back in the 80s) but the system seems dead simple to me. It has lots of room for complication and confusion, sure, but these are all things (as noted by others above) you don't need to play the game.

The one thing I'd suggest - and this is based on introducing casual gamers to other games I've played - is to run your first game with pre-generated characters. Hand them a well put together character with a hint of developed personality and let them get into the game without having to start from scratch. This way they get to play rather than build, which seems to help.

Basically, treat it like a more codified version of the "dinner murder mystery" games and watch the casual folk ham it up. Then, once they're hooked, you can throw them the chance for them to develop their own characters.

[punc_e]

I've taught the BRP mechanics successfully to six year olds. In my opinion, it's one of the easiest, most intuitive games on the market.

[Atgxtg]

In a nutshell, no. What you are seeing is more like this:

The game system is easy. But there have been several variations of it over the years. Each with its own supporters. So what you are seeing are people going over the high end details and what they think is better or worse, or just what they would prefer.

Think of a game engine as a car. Learning to drive isn't too tough. Deciding what sort of car, what color, tires, radio, the horsepower of the engine, if it should have bullet proof glass and armor. All that has little do do with actually driving the car, but could have a lot to do with getting the car to do what you want it to do. Since we have a hundred people here who all want to use the same "engine" to do something a little different we get disagreements.

Since we all spend time on and care about our gaming experiences, we can take it all a little too seriously, putting more effort into minutiae than needed, and making little differences look like major ideological differences.

But it is really choices rather than difficulty.

In the end there are only two things to remember.

1)

and

2)

The rest is everybody else's problem!

[drohem]

That was awsome! :thumb::cool:

[Atgxtg]

That was awsome! :thumb::cool:

Finding a griffin puppet in nearly the exact Chaosium pose was simply too good to pass up.

So I've seen a few too many mythos creatures.

[Ars Mysteriorum]

Holy crap.

I was just JOKING!

Holy crap.

That was awesome!

[Atgxtg]

We do tend to goo off on tangets with an intensity all out of proportion. The occasional bit of lunacy helps.

To an outsider looking in, it can be intimidating, but it's not as bad as we make it sound.

As a GM, probably most of the "problems" I've fixed in an RPG are things that the players hadn't even spotted.

Right about now, I'm sorta wishing for some more anime influence. ;)

[Rurik]

Somebody has WAY too much time on their hands...

Good stuff tho' :thumb:

[Atgxtg]

Somebody has WAY too much time on their hands...

Good stuff tho' :thumb:

Actually that didn't take too long. Maybe 15-20 minutes. Most the picture work is a little crude and sloppy. The hard part was having to reboot my computer because Paintshop Pro kept crashing. It took me a few tries to realize that I has a memory leak (probably PSP) and needed to reboot to get the RAM back. At least I think that was the problem.

[Zane]

Somebody has WAY too much time on their hands...

Good stuff tho' :thumb:

Seconded. On both points!

[The Venomous Pao]

Close the internet. Atgxtg has created the perfect post. There is no reason to bother with anything else. Ever.

Outstanding, sir or madam!

Oh, and I have that puppet at home. Seeing it here really messed with my head for a minute.

[Trifletraxor]

I'm still hummering with laughter from the "What!?? I made the roll!" picture he posted earlier in the fate points discussion.

SGL.

[Shaira]

I am in awe. Absolutely brilliant, and slightly deranged. Go Puppets!

We are not worthy! :thumb:

*thinks* Where the heck do you get a fluffy griffin? Ack... Japanese manga girl in ripped schoolgirl uniform shock horror... must... lie... down... ack... cough

[The Venomous Pao]

Where the heck do you get a fluffy griffin?

Folkmanis, Inc. - Maker of Folkmanis Puppets for Over 30 Years

They have a terribly cute gargoyle as well.

[Shaira]

Folkmanis, Inc. - Maker of Folkmanis Puppets for Over 30 Years

They have a terribly cute gargoyle as well.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo *thunk*

This is clearly some weirdo sex fetish thing I've managed to miss all these years... Fluffy clams! And the t-rex... well that thing just looks PERVERTED. :eek:

I'm gonna haf to sit down a while after all this... it's all a bit too much...

There's gotta be a CoC scenario in here somewhere... I mean, their eyes just follow you all around the room...

I liked the "Suggest a Puppet" link, though... Chimp in zoot suit with Thompson smg and cigar, I think... Or Fetish Rabbit with Spiked Collar...

And I thought we were all weird...

Sarah

[Atgxtg]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo *thunk*

This is clearly some weirdo sex fetish thing I've managed to miss all these years... Fluffy clams! And the t-rex... well that thing just looks PERVERTED. :eek:

I'm gonna haf to sit down a while after all this... it's all a bit too much...

There's gotta be a CoC scenario in here somewhere... I mean, their eyes just follow you all around the room...

I liked the "Suggest a Puppet" link, though... Chimp in zoot suit with Thompson smg and cigar, I think... Or Fetish Rabbit with Spiked Collar...

And I thought we were all weird...

Sarah

Ooh, Sarah finds puppets sexy! I wondered what episodes of Sesame Street I missed? Maybe I should be more careful.

Playfrog. Available at finer bookshops, lily pads and pig pens.

[drohem]

Well, here in the USA there is a sub-culture of people who dress up in furry animal costumes (full body) and have sex. :eek:

[Shaira]

Ooh, Sarah finds puppets sexy! I wondered what episodes of Sesame Street I missed? Maybe I should be more careful.

Hey, buddy, who you been talkin' to? It was all a long time ago, and I needed the money, and anyways, I didn't know he was this big movie star, I jus' thought he was this regular frog, is all...

:eek:

[Atgxtg]

Hey, buddy, who you been talkin' to? It was all a long time ago, and I needed the money, and anyways, I didn't know he was this big movie star, I jus' thought he was this regular frog, is all...

:eek:

I had to use the Albuterol inhaler after that.

[p_clapham]

Well, here in the USA there is a sub-culture of people who dress up in furry animal costumes (full body) and have sex. :eek:

Right-o. Time to pour bleach into my ears again.

Anyways. Of all the RPG's I've got BRP is pretty simple at it's core. Any of the complicated bits are up to you to add or not.