Attacks/round house rules or other options besides using strike ranks.

[skull]

Anyone have any ideas for multiple attacks per round besides strike ranks? I really don't like that everyone gets the same number of melee attacks no matter what their DEX rating is.

[skull]

let me clarify . what i am looking for is a way to do multiple atacks based on dex, but not like strike ranks, and where size is not a factor. just wondering! if any gaming peeps on here have a alternative way to do it that is simple yet allows a higher dex character to get more attacks.

[SDLeary]

DEX, and then DEX -10 for timing. Each attack is Difficult because attention is being split between the two targets.

SDLeary

[Chaot]

Do you use skills over 100%?

I allow split attacks at 50% minimum and at 5 DEX intervals. So, a PC running around with 160% Sword and a DEX 16 could attack could attack once at 50% on DEX 16, once at 50% at DEX 11, and once at 60% at DEX 6.

Alternatively, and off the top of my head.

You want to reward high Dexterity characters with extra attacks? Peg the Dex intervals you want to measure it by. I'm going to use 5 DEX (because I like that number) and say that every 5 DEX above average gets the player an extra attack at a -30% penalty. I'm putting average at DEX 10. So, a character with 15 DEX can attack at full skill on DEX rank 15 and again at -30% skill on DEX rank 10. Completely untested, but it seems like a logical approach to what you want. Does that work?

[filbanto]

Combat actions are tied to DEX (or DEX + INT) in Legend (aka Mongoose RQ). I think it is only a buck to download the pdf.

[frogspawner]

I say Martial Arts gives an extra attack, instead of extra damage.

That's not really DEX-related, but you could easily derive a DEX-based formula to 'cap' the max attacks/round you can get from it. Would that do?

[RosenMcStern]

let me clarify . what i am looking for is a way to do multiple atacks based on dex, but not like strike ranks, and where size is not a factor. just wondering! if any gaming peeps on here have a alternative way to do it that is simple yet allows a higher dex character to get more attacks.

You should go for RuneQuest/Legend rather than try to tweak BRP. This system is extremely well tested, and you risk breaking it. An attack, here, does not represent a single blow, but an entire sequence of manoeuvres that last for the entire round and culminate in some damage being inflicted (or avoided). This is why everyone has one attack regardless of DEX. The extra speed is factored in the skill.

In Legend, on the other hand, combat is based on the concept of Actions rather than rounds, and high DEX means more actions. Each action represents one single blow, two at most, and not an entire round. As a consequence, average damage from weapons is is lower, and it usually takes two ore more blows that land in the same area to down a foe (not true in BRP).

[frogspawner]

On the contrary, the ease with which rules can be 'tweaked' is often said to be a major strength of BRP.

So change what you like until it works for you!

[Mankcam]

Rosen is right with his description of attacks for BRP, and with also with his suggestion that MRQ2/LEGEND has the kind of thing you are looking for, and as Filbanto says, the LEGEND pdf is still only $1 USD at present so it's cheap enough to buy and run with, especially since it is a BRP-related game. LEGEND is great for a tactile feel with melee combat based settings, such as Medieval/Ancient etc. It has a good Initiative system which takes into consideration how quick a character is, and also how encumbered they are. You get the situation where is is equally viable in combat to play a nimble knife wielder as well as a heavily armored man-at-arms; its quite a good fit for Fantasy settings.

However as Chaot has pointed out, in BRP once skills are over 100% you can split the rolls - this doesn't represent an additional swing, it represents a chance of additional damage due to the character's combat effectiveness.

I'm not sure if the BRP rules would break if you tweaked them too much, they have certainly held up well under years of house rules. Despite this, considering LEGEND is so cheap at present it is certainly advisable to simply use its BRP-related gaming engine for Fantasy settings, and to use the BRP BGB for less melee-focused settings IMO.

[RosenMcStern]

On the contrary, the ease with which rules can be 'tweaked' is often said to be a major strength of BRP.

"Tweak" does not refer to core concepts, though. The concept of "one melee attack is not a single blow" is core to the system, exactly like "Hit Points are not just physical health" is core to D&D. Everything else is balanced on the core concept. Removing it will produce a completely different (and NOT PLAYTESTED) game.

It is certainly possible to play BRP with a different approach to attacks and a focus on DEX and multiple actions, but it becomes a totally different combat system, not just a "tweak" of the rules. That system exists, and is well playtested: it is Legend.

[frogspawner]

Nah. For me, another important thing about BRP is that it gives the impression that "one melee attack IS a single blow".

This helps players identify with their characters.

BTW, Why are you guys doing such a sales-pitch for Legend? It's pretty new and, unlike BRP, not yet thirty years 'well playtested'. I think us RPG-ers would be better served if publishers came out with more *adventures*, rather than new rules/source-books every five minutes...

[rust]

what i am looking for is a way to do multiple atacks based on dex ...

When you increase the number of attacks per combat round you probably also

have to increase the number of dodge and/or parry attempts per combat round,

because otherwise you tend to get many attacks without any option to defend

against them, which would make combat a lot more lethal than it already is. And

if you introduce multiple attacks and multiple options to dodge and/or parry ba-

sed on dexterity, all you probably get is a slower combat flow, but not a signifi-

cantly different style or feel of the combat.

So, as I see it, the added complexity would hardly result in a more interesting

combat sequence, and there may well be other unintended consequences which

could unbalance the game. Therefore I would hesitate to use such a house rule.

[RosenMcStern]

BTW, Why are you guys doing such a sales-pitch for Legend? It's pretty new and, unlike BRP, not yet thirty years 'well playtested'. I think us RPG-ers would be better served if publishers came out with more *adventures*, rather than new rules/source-books every five minutes...

Well, you cannot certainly blame ME for not publishing enough adventures

It is true that there are several points that need some minor tinkering in Legend, but this is a job that Peter and Loz have already done. The results are just a few weeks away from us. On the contrary, I doubt that you can say that there are new sourcebooks every 5 minutes. At the moment we have:

- BRP/CoC

- OpenQuest

- Renaissance

- Legend

- The Laundry

- RuneQuest 6 (almost)

- Aeon (almost)

plus some more OQ tweaks that have been around for some months. Not that much, if you think of how many versions of D&D exist. One of those, in any case, is guaranteed to suit your tastes if you want to play d100. It is just a matter of finding the right one. In this case, the OP clearly wants something that plays like Legend: "I am quicker, I strike more often".

[SDLeary]

The core for Number of Attacks based on DEX already exists in BRP, though it has traditionally been restricted by "Weapon Speed".

Attack

Your character can make an attack against a target on his

or her DEX rank, in addition to moving up to 5 meters.

Unless modified otherwise, this attack is performed at the

full skill rating. As noted above, if a particular weapon

allows for multiple attacks, each successive attack should

be at 5 DEX ranks lower than the previous attack.

--BGB p190

Simply eliminate weapons speed save for mechanical weapons and ridiculous melee weapons like Pikes, and you are done.

The main issue here, as pointed out above, is that combat becomes tons more cumbersome (takes longer to play out), though I would also adjust the DEX rank penalty to something higher than 5 (like the 10 I suggested above).

SDLeary

Edited April 23, 2012 by SDLeary

[filbanto]

Stormbringer (at least early editions) had a riposte concept as well. If you parried an attack you could take an immediate swipe at your attacker at a cumulative -20 or 30% penalty. This was quick and very fun for high skill characters.

[frogspawner]

Well, you cannot certainly blame ME for not publishing enough adventures

Go on then - please give us a list of 'em...

In this case, the OP clearly wants something that plays like Legend: "I am quicker, I strike more often".

It may be unexpected, but my alternative "Martial Arts gives extra attacks, up to a DEX-based limit" idea might be just what the OP (or another reader) would really want!

Edited April 23, 2012 by frogspawner
Removed nose from smiley

[Pete Nash]

BTW, Why are you guys doing such a sales-pitch for Legend? It's pretty new and, unlike BRP, not yet thirty years 'well playtested'. I think us RPG-ers would be better served if publishers came out with more *adventures*, rather than new rules/source-books every five minutes...

Why not give support for MRQ2/Legend? Its proven to be popular, mechanically stable and perhaps most importantly, a great deal of fun!

[frogspawner]

Why not give support for MRQ2/Legend? Its proven to be popular, mechanically stable and perhaps most importantly, a great deal of fun!

Who says I don't support Legend? I bought the darned thing (ok, asked for it to be bought for me as a prezzie), and have described it as 'good' hereabouts - do you want blood as well?

But don't ask me to help stifle alternative ideas.

[Mankcam]

I suppose I was just throwing my own opinion out there, and hopefully it didn't come across prescriptive.

Not intending to straight jacket any creativity, but considering I was replying to the original poster I don't see how anything has been stifled. Skull asked for advice on multiple attacks and such, and I just pointed out that LEGEND is currently very cheap (esp in pdf form), and that it is a good 'official' source of information which seems to have the mechanics that Skull is after. LEGEND is part of the BRP family, after all.

The current gaming troupe I have been running just finished a Gloranthan 3rd Age campaign using good old AH RQ3, and we just recently moved into Call of Cthulhu 6E. I still love RQ3, but after reading MRQ2 and LEGEND I'ld certainly start a new fantasy troupe using those rules (or probably RQ6, considering it is the same authors). MRQ2/LEGEND just seems quite smooth to run, and the mechanics have a great flavour in regards to evoking melee combat. I think it is probably the best current product for crunchy melee combat for Fantasy settings, whilst BRP/Call of Cthulhu runs other settings just fine.

Horses for courses I guess

Edited April 24, 2012 by Mankcam

[frogspawner]

I suppose I was just throwing my own opinion out there, and hopefully it didn't come across prescriptive.

No worries. Giving/receiving opinions is what we're here for! Just feel a bit 'got at' (not by you) when ideas are immediately rubbished as 'risking breaking BRP' (despite it being perhaps the most change-resilient system ever) and 'not playtested' (just like anything new, of course).

Legend seems an OK system, but it's Combat Actions (and Manoeuvres, etc) are really quite different from BRP. The OP (or other reader) may not want to make the radical change to a whole new system - preferring just a minor tweak.

[Chaot]

No worries. Giving/receiving opinions is what we're here for! Just feel a bit 'got at' (not by you) when ideas are immediately rubbished as 'risking breaking BRP' (despite it being perhaps the most change-resilient system ever) and 'not playtested' (just like anything new, of course).

Here here! I heartily agree. Kludge something together and see if the adjustment does what you want. If so, you're golden. If not, tuck it away and wait for the idea to 'mature.' Cheers to the rules tinker!

(Thread reminds though that I still need to pick up and look at Legend.)

[rust]

Legend is certainly a very interesting system with many nice ideas, but it

has inherited a couple of unclear rules and loose ends from MRQ II. We in-

tended to use it for our Phalanos campaign, but after some debate - main-

ly about details of the sorcery rules - we decided to use BRP instead.

[Mankcam]

Well my main sticking point with LEGEND is the choice of Fighting Styles over Fighting skills. I can see how they work, but my troupe would probably have issues adjusting to it after the Fighting skills of BRP. Other than that, it appears a great fit for Fantasy. I'm not totally against the whole Fighting Styles concept, but I'ld have to get my head around it better to present it to my troupe, as they'ld prefer the BRP combat skills.

I do agree with these forums being a good place to brainstorm rules and such though, there is a lot of creative output here

[RosenMcStern]

Legend seems an OK system, but it's Combat Actions (and Manoeuvres, etc) are really quite different from BRP. The OP (or other reader) may not want to make the radical change to a whole new system - preferring just a minor tweak.

Sure. But let him judge by himself. From what he wrote, it sounds like he has never played Legend. Let him try the game that comes with the exact thing he wants, out of the box, for $1, and then if he does not like it he is free to examine other solutions.

In other words, it is entirely possible that the car you just assembled in your backyard can run faster than a Ferrari. But if there is a Ferrari on offer for $1, most sensible people would have a ride on it before trying the do-it-yourself solution.

No worries. Giving/receiving opinions is what we're here for! Just feel a bit 'got at' (not by you) when ideas are immediately rubbished as 'risking breaking BRP' (despite it being perhaps the most change-resilient system ever) and 'not playtested' (just like anything new, of course).

Besides creativity-that-must-not-be-stifled, it exists one concept that is called "design consistency". In my experience, there are some pieces of BRP that should not be tinkered with (or should not be tinkered with light-heartedly) if you do not want to spoil the game system. The concept of "One attack is not one blow" is exactly one of them. Any attempt that I have seen at modifying it (except Legend, which is a wholly different system designed by an experienced re-enactor) has resulted in gross unbalances.

[RosenMcStern]

OFF TOPIC (but useful)

Legend is certainly a very interesting system with many nice ideas, but it

has inherited a couple of unclear rules and loose ends from MRQ II. We in-

tended to use it for our Phalanos campaign, but after some debate - main-

ly about details of the sorcery rules - we decided to use BRP instead.

Well my main sticking point with LEGEND is the choice of Fighting Styles over Fighting skills. I can see how they work, but my troupe would probably have issues adjusting to it after the Fighting skills of BRP. Other than that, it appears a great fit for Fantasy. I'm not totally against the whole Fighting Styles concept, but I'ld have to get my head around it better to present it to my troupe, as they'ld prefer the BRP combat skills.

I do agree with these forums being a good place to brainstorm rules and such though, there is a lot of creative output here

Well, I hope Pete and Loz are still in time to incorporate these two very useful suggestions in RQ6. I wish you had said this earlier. Although it could have perceived as a dicordant voice in the chorus of general praise, in fact it is not. These two points are important.

a) Sorcery: there are holes in the system, and this is well known. Despite the general statements of "Oooh, wonderful" that came after people read the system, the rules in actual play have been found to have plenty of "quirks". Repeated Teleportation and Tapping at 5km range are just some of the problems found so far: the list of exploits found is going to grow in size. Luckily, I know for sure that the whole magic section has been rebalanced from the ground up for RQ6. I hope the principles behind these problems have been eliminated.

Fighting styles: Mankcam nailed it, they are ok but it is difficult to explain people how they work. Loz has been forced to post on several forums to clarify the correct interpretation of the rules, and this is certainly one point that players have problem "grokking". A good explanation about how this works (not included in Legend) is crucial for the success of RQ6. But again, the two have said they fixed this point.