Bronze Halberd use?

[Nevermet]

ok, so... this is a halberd from the Equipment book:

It appears to have been a real weapon, popular in bronze age Germany, Ireland, Spain, and Northern Italy for a period of time. Based on some petroglyphs, it appears the half was at least as tall as a person. So we have a 2-handed weapon that requires swinging / chopping motions. (there may have been a 1-handed variant, but lets ignore that for now).  Archaeologists appear confident that at leastfor some time, it was a functional weapon that was used (as opposed to a purely symbolic object)

 

I've done some internet searches, and I haven't gotten any good answers, so I will pose it here: How would such a polearm be used by militaries in battle formations?  Obviously, you can't do a phalanx, and the room it requires would suggest any kind of tight formations wouldn't work.  It might be ok against cavalry due to length.

 

Any ideas?  I'm not a military historian type. Thanks.

[jajagappa]

25 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Any ideas?  I'm not a military historian type.

Consult the indisputable military reference for Glorantha! Martin Helsdon's Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass.

He has a brief note there on halberds: "Halberds are particularly deadly when used against an opponent lacking head armor, or by infantry against mounted opponents who think they are out of reach. These weapons were also apparently used in early chariot warfare, allowing a chariot warrior to engage enemies on foot whilst mounted in the chariot car."

[SDLeary]

7 hours ago, Nevermet said:

ok, so... this is a halberd from the Equipment book:

It appears to have been a real weapon, popular in bronze age Germany, Ireland, Spain, and Northern Italy for a period of time. Based on some petroglyphs, it appears the half was at least as tall as a person. So we have a 2-handed weapon that requires swinging / chopping motions. (there may have been a 1-handed variant, but lets ignore that for now).  Archaeologists appear confident that at leastfor some time, it was a functional weapon that was used (as opposed to a purely symbolic object)

 

I've done some internet searches, and I haven't gotten any good answers, so I will pose it here: How would such a polearm be used by militaries in battle formations?  Obviously, you can't do a phalanx, and the room it requires would suggest any kind of tight formations wouldn't work.  It might be ok against cavalry due to length.

 

Any ideas?  I'm not a military historian type. Thanks.

Simply looks like a dagger-axe. Could be a two-handed dagger-axe, but Halberd, at least as commonly defined, is a stretch. There is no poky bit.

SDLeary

[M Helsdon]

9 hours ago, Nevermet said:

I've done some internet searches, and I haven't gotten any good answers, so I will pose it here: How would such a polearm be used by militaries in battle formations?  Obviously, you can't do a phalanx, and the room it requires would suggest any kind of tight formations wouldn't work.  It might be ok against cavalry due to length.

The best example in the historical record are the numerous variants of the Chinese ji, which seems to have developed from the spear and dagger-axe. It was a popular infantry weapon from the Shang to the Qing dynasties, used against mounted foes, on horses or in chariots, but also to thrust and hook and pull into an enemy formation, striking at the head, slicing into armor and also used to pull shields away - perhaps sometimes used in conjunction with a spear-equipped comrade who would then stab (and some variants have a spear head combining the roles). For cavalry and chariot warriors, they offer a greater reach to strike opponents on foot.

It's very likely that the European versions were used in a very similar way, but we lack actual documentary evidence, as those fell out of use until halberds appeared much later.

In Weapons & Equipment we describe the halberd as 'This large two-handed axe is set atop a long pole, often with a hammer opposite the axe blade on the head and a spear tip jutting out the top.' I don't recall what I provided as art direction for the pole arms.

 

Edited August 6 by M Helsdon

[Jens]

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

numerous variants of the Chinese ji, which seems to have developed from the spear and dagger-axe

The drawing in the book looks like the older Shang dynasty Gē (dagger-axe), not the later Ji (halberd) which added a spear point for more versatility since you could then thrust, not just swing the weapon. This made the weapon more useful both for infantry fighting in formation, as well as from horseback. As you've noted, that drawing does not match the description in the book for a halberd, having no 'spear tip jutting out the top'.

[Eff]

12 hours ago, Nevermet said:

ok, so... this is a halberd from the Equipment book:

It appears to have been a real weapon, popular in bronze age Germany, Ireland, Spain, and Northern Italy for a period of time. Based on some petroglyphs, it appears the half was at least as tall as a person. So we have a 2-handed weapon that requires swinging / chopping motions. (there may have been a 1-handed variant, but lets ignore that for now).  Archaeologists appear confident that at leastfor some time, it was a functional weapon that was used (as opposed to a purely symbolic object)

 

I've done some internet searches, and I haven't gotten any good answers, so I will pose it here: How would such a polearm be used by militaries in battle formations?  Obviously, you can't do a phalanx, and the room it requires would suggest any kind of tight formations wouldn't work.  It might be ok against cavalry due to length.

 

Any ideas?  I'm not a military historian type. Thanks.

Skirmishers, or a looser formation like the Romans used, or putting them in the middle of a formation like the early modern pike-and-shot squares. The Han ji/dāo/nŭ formations probably aren't workable as the "halberd" is depicted, nor something like bill/longbow units, and without a sharp tip for thrusting, it's going to be awkward no matter what. Comparatively, other swingy polearms like the glaive, war scythes, naginata, and later halberds tended to have their sharp edges shaped to make thrusting effective as an option.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Jens said:

The drawing in the book looks like the older Shang dynasty Gē (dagger-axe), not the later Ji (halberd) which added a spear point for more versatility since you could then thrust, not just swing the weapon.

There were many varieties of ji. The ge was one variety, earlier, and I was, for most items, directed to Bronze Age items. I didn't have the book text for this section.

I've found up my art direction. Several images, using Bronze Age European halberds. 

Edited August 6 by M Helsdon

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Eff said:

Comparatively, other swingy polearms like the glaive, war scythes, naginata, and later halberds tended to have their sharp edges shaped to make thrusting effective as an option.

One imagines the use-case would look most like that of a Dane-axe? Long sweeping motions to strike hard and control a wide area.

[Eff]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

One imagines the use-case would look most like that of a Dane-axe? Long sweeping motions to strike hard and control a wide area.

Do bear in mind that the horns of a "Danish axe" (which was initially about a meter long) give it a wider range of angles at which it can cut effectively. The later, longer axes attributed to gallowglasses stood alongside the two-handed sword as stereotypical weapons, and both could be effectively used with one hand choked up. They're somewhat workable for close-order combat. But the pure dagger-axe, well, historically it becomes very rare once close-order infantry become important.

[Nevermet]

10 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Simply looks like a dagger-axe. Could be a two-handed dagger-axe, but Halberd, at least as commonly defined, is a stretch. There is no poky bit.

SDLeary

Dagger axes and bronze-age halberds are effectively the same weapon.  In our world, "dagger axe" tends to be applied to the Chinese polearm, while "halberd" is what historians & archaeologists called the same weapon found in Ireland.  Mechanically in RQG, one is a 2H Spear and one is an Axe, but yeah... same thing.

[Jens]

Agreed, I'd use the Praxian Dagger-Axe to stand in for the Ge and the Bronze Age halberd, or any such slashing weapon without a point, although perhaps with reduced damage (3D6 is a bit high for those). Since the RQ:G Halberd is defined as a Cut + Thrust weapon, I'd only use it for something with a spike, including a Je and a medieval halberd.

[SDLeary]

24 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Dagger axes and bronze-age halberds are effectively the same weapon.

Only somewhat. There are Bronze Age asian examples that have "spear" points (Ji has been mentioned, though I always thought a proper Ji didn't come about till the Iron Age). Recently, there have also been some depicted with L shaped blades, though I am not aware of any actual examples of these, and it might be artistic license.

As for European items, it is sadly probably a case of antiquarians and early archaeologists assigning a tag without understanding how a thing was used. 🙂

SDLeary

[SDLeary]

Also, if these are in fact weapons (as opposed to a gardening tool for cutting small branches or fruit out of trees), keeping the blade aligned must have been a royal pain in the a**. The grip areas of most of the representations that I've seen look very round.

SDLeary

[g33k]

8 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Also, if these are in fact weapons (as opposed to a gardening tool for cutting small branches or fruit out of trees), keeping the blade aligned must have been a royal pain in the a**. The grip areas of most of the representations that I've seen look very round.

I don't think there's any doubt that (at least most of) these are weapons (also that they are related to (& sometimes directly descended from) arborist/pruning tools).

But anything with the large blades (as pictured above) & particularly the dual-edges & sharp striking points (as pictured above) is meant to be punching/striking tip, & you'll see the same issue of keeping the blade aligned (not just in combat).

[SDLeary]

11 minutes ago, g33k said:

I don't think there's any doubt that (at least most of) these are weapons (also that they are related to (& sometimes directly descended from) arborist/pruning tools).

But anything with the large blades (as pictured above) & particularly the dual-edges & sharp striking points (as pictured above) is meant to be punching/striking tip, & you'll see the same issue of keeping the blade aligned (not just in combat).

Yes, especially early on. The phenomena being "we have these pointy things with two sharp edges, what can we do with them?" With the utilitarian use of mounting it however they think it will be useful, optimizations to come later. As a result you have daggers, dagger-axes, and apparently "halberds".

SDLeary

[Ian Absentia]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I don't think there's any doubt that (at least most of) these are weapons (also that they are related to (& sometimes directly descended from) arborist/pruning tools).

Beware the pitfalls of "common sense".  They're definitely taking advantage of being a hook and lever to pull something down or aside.  Add a blade for utility and/or mayhem, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

!i!

[FisharmPete]

Lindybeige made a video on YouTube about these a while ago if I remember right.  They really seem to function more as a war pick than an axe.  Maybe not perfect for getting through a bronze plate but I imagine it would puncture linothorax quite effectively, not to mention thick beast hides.  

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:29 AM, SDLeary said:

Also, if these are in fact weapons (as opposed to a gardening tool for cutting small branches or fruit out of trees), keeping the blade aligned must have been a royal pain in the a**. The grip areas of most of the representations that I've seen look very round.

SDLeary

Probably not much more difficult than keeping a pick aligned.  Once you get that heavy head swinging, you just guide it and accelerate it a little bit.  Dig a couple of holes, and you have trained yourself on the pick.

 

Edited August 7 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Squaredeal Sten]

If I were inclined to house rule it , then as a footman fights mounted targets I would have polearms such as this (and also pikes) roll hit location on D20 and not on D10.  

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

If I were inclined to house rule it , then as a footman fights mounted targets I would have polearms such as this (and also pikes) roll hit location on D20 and not on D10.  

Maybe not on a High Llama, but otherwise yeah.

When used by High Llama riders, I almost picture a polo swing, which would hit like an absolute truck.

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Probably not much more difficult than keeping a pick aligned.  Once you get that heavy head swinging, you just guide it and accelerate it a little but.  Dig a couple of holes, and you have trained yourself on the pick.

 

Save that with a pick or pickaxe (at least the ones I've used) are shaped so that you have an idea of alignment. These Bronze Age items may have had this simple remedy as well, but they tend to not be depicted that way that I've seen.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Probably not much more difficult than keeping a pick aligned.  

When was the last time you saw a Lawful Good pick?

[Nevermet]

42 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

When was the last time you saw a Lawful Good pick?

If you add an "r", quite often.

...I should go.

[Nozbat]

42 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

When was the last time you saw a Lawful Good pick?

I prefer neutral evil picks.. mainly because on reading through this thread, I’d hate to be hit over my unarmoured head with any of those weapons

[Eff]

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

Save that with a pick or pickaxe (at least the ones I've used) are shaped so that you have an idea of alignment. These Bronze Age items may have had this simple remedy as well, but they tend to not be depicted that way that I've seen.

SDLeary

Granted, most reconstructions aren't aimed at usability, and iconographic evidence is always tricky when it comes to the use of weapons.