Bronze Halberd use?

[g33k]

6 minutes ago, Eff said:

Granted, most reconstructions aren't aimed at usability, and iconographic evidence is always tricky when it comes to the use of weapons.

Do we have any haft-preserved genuine historic items?  Maybe in old peat-bog/etc sites?

[SDLeary]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Do we have any haft-preserved genuine historic items?  Maybe in old peat-bog/etc sites?

Not that I have seen, at least not more than scraps of wood around the rivets.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I prefer neutral evil picks..

THat's a tall order,I believe the Picts died out before the medieval era.

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

mainly because on reading through this thread, I’d hate to be hit over my unarmoured head with any of those weapons

I hate to be hit over any part of my body, armored or not, with any weapon, and that was before I read this thread. That's the thing about weapons. Not fun to be on the receiving end, unless they are made by Nerf. 

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I hate to be hit over any part of my body, armored or not, with any weapon, and that was before I read this thread. That's the thing about weapons. Not fun to be on the receiving end, unless they are made by Nerf. 

this might be the first time I have heard a gamer using the term Nerf  in a positive manner!

[svensson]

To the OP:

'Halberd' is a description often used for any long hafted weapon that contains an axe blade and is too long to be called a 'poleaxe'. For a lot of authors it's kind of a code for 'I don't know what the Hell to call this'. Personally I would call that illustration a type of Dacian Falx and there is a Chinese 'halberd' of similar construction in the pre-Imperial era.

What it is NOT is the classic axe/spear combination tool used by infantry to shuck a man out of his armor from the Renaissance era. I jokingly refer to the Renaissance halberd as the prototype 'Swiss Army spear' 😆

However, the illustrated dagger/axe shown in 'Arms and Equipment' did exist in Europe and was found in similar offering sites as swords and axes, so we must assume it was used as a weapon of war even if there is little or no pictorial evidence. And, in a Glorantha sense, the High Llama Tribe of Prax uses a very similar weapon to reach infantry on the ground.

[PaulJW]

On 8/5/2024 at 10:32 PM, Nevermet said:

How would such a polearm be used by militaries in battle formations?

It depends on the type.  During the late medieval and early renaissance halberds could double as spears, it was this that made them especially effective against cavalry.  Used in close formation as a slashing weapon it would not be a good idea to have many of those things being wielding together in close formation - to use a halberd like that you need space, otherwise there is a real risk to hitting people on your own side or, at least, disrupting the formation.

A halberd such as that shown in the equipment book is mainly for solo use, or, if used in formation at all, you'd stick the people with halberds on the flanks to protect the formation from mounted attackers like the Ottomans did in the C16th.

On 8/6/2024 at 2:13 PM, Akhôrahil said:

One imagines the use-case would look most like that of a Dane-axe? Long sweeping motions to strike hard and control a wide area.

Given the illustration, I would have to agree.  It is a weapon for sweeping blows and definitely requires plenty of space to use effectively.  It is not like a renaissance halberd or late medieval billmen that could be used for proding people in a close knit formation as well as slashing.

[PaulJW]

On 8/8/2024 at 1:36 AM, svensson said:

What it is NOT is the classic axe/spear combination tool used by infantry to shuck a man out of his armor from the Renaissance era.

Agreed.  I used to fight late renaissance/early modern re-enactment & one of out pike units fought a halberd block once (they had renaissance halberds).  Two practical observations on those things:

a) real halberds are bloody dangerous (to your own side as well as the enemy) if you are not very well trained.

b) the halberd block lost its formational integrity really quickly due to idiots attempting to swing those things.

So, not a formation fighting weapon for the ill-trained was our conclusion on that.  Only very well trained soldiers could use those things effectively in close formation.  Anything else would be a dogs breakfast.

Edited August 9 by PaulJW

[svensson]

28 minutes ago, PaulJW said:

Agreed.  I used to fight late renaissance/early modern re-enactment & one of out pike units fought a halberd block once (they had renaissance halberds).  Two practical observations on those things:

a) real halberds are bloody dangerous (to your own side as well as the enemy) if you are not very well trained.

b) the halberd block lost its formational integrity really quickly due to idiots attempting to swing those things.

So, not a formation fighting weapon for the ill-trained was our conclusion on that.  Only very well trained soldiers could use those things effectively in close formation.  Anything else would be a dogs breakfast.

There are two issues in fighting with a halberd:

1. You don't use it like a baseball bat and make great big swings with it. You use short powerful thrusts and hacks using your legs and abdominal muscles, quick hacking blows that return you to the Guard position quickly. Yes, I know there's that glorious halberd dueling manual that makes it look like two Landsknechts are getting all 'John Wick' with it, but a halberd block isn't fighting a duel. So many people who think they know better seem to forget that the crap you do in a duel will get you killed on a battlefield.

2. The damned thing has three points on it, USE THEM! Thrusting attacks with a coordinated pair of attackers [one thrusting for the eyes, the other for the abdomen] will put paid on the account of any attacker in the world. Same thing with a paired halberdier and pikeman.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

There are two issues in fighting with a halberd:

1. You don't use it like a baseball bat and make great big swings with it. You use short powerful thrusts and hacks using your legs and abdominal muscles, quick hacking blows that return you to the Guard position quickly. Yes, I know there's that glorious halberd dueling manual that makes it look like two Landsknechts are getting all 'John Wick' with it, but a halberd block isn't fighting a duel. So many people who think they know better seem to forget that the crap you do in a duel will get you killed on a battlefield.

2. The damned thing has three points on it, USE THEM! Thrusting attacks with a coordinated pair of attackers [one thrusting for the eyes, the other for the abdomen] will put paid on the account of any attacker in the world. Same thing with a paired halberdier and pikeman.

This is why a medieval halberd and a dagger-axe work in different ways. The dagger-axe can't thrust, so you have to swing, reasonably much as with a Dane-axe/longaxe. Keeping the swings going also mean you control a lot of space.

 

Edited August 9 by Akhôrahil

[PaulJW]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

You don't use it like a baseball bat and make great big swings with it.

I have only ever seen them used by idiots.  I was not really familiar with the 'correct' fighting techniques for such weapons but I did assume that what I was witnessing was not it.

[Alex]

19 hours ago, svensson said:

The damned thing has three points on it, USE THEM!

Or two, or four, or -- "glaive-glaive guisarme and roll thrice more", to reuse a very old Space Gamer gag -- almost more true than funny -- about polearmas.   Use the the pointy bits you have, or else get the points you need, I guess!

19 hours ago, PaulJW said:

the halberd block lost its formational integrity really quickly due to idiots attempting to swing those things.

Hrm, but being able to swing them is a large part of the "point" -- as it were, geddit -- surely.  Otherwise what you have is a shortish spear with significant dead weight.  My understanding of the 'doctrine' of shot-and-pike is that that when halberds were used, they were mixed into those blocks.  i.e. you had a smattering of specialists/experts/idiots among the pikes, to help break up the enemy formation if things got deadlocked, to attack cavalry after any initial charge, and so on.  A whole block is surely going to get creamed by an opposing pike one, and would be impractical to deploy in an "everyone swing at once!" manner even when that's called for.

Edited August 10 by Alex

[svensson]

@Alex There is an old SCA joke about the Left-Handed Pandy Bat, a polearm with so many hooks, points, blades, and bells that it's manifestly more dangerous to the wielder than it is to any opponent -- especially if wielded by the guy who built it! 😆

[Alex]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

@Alex There is an old SCA joke about the Left-Handed Pandy Bat, a polearm with so many hooks, points, blades, and bells that it's manifestly more dangerous to the wielder than it is to any opponent -- especially if wielded by the guy who built it! 😆

Glaive-glaive-guisarme-bardiche-bec-bill...  nunchaku?!?

Edited August 10 by Alex