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Armor damaged by combat damage.


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Hey all,

As I work on Sagaborn d100, I may ask some questions here to have your expert opinions on it! 

I am going to test having armor get damaged during combat. I have mocked up some rules for it and would love to hear opinions and/or examples of other BRP rules that do this. (of note, SagaBorn is heroic fantasy with higher than standard HP - CON+SIZ, and doesn't have hit locations).
 

Armor Damage

Armor protects the user from damage, but as it protects, it becomes damaged. When a person wearing armor is hit with an attack that deals damage to the adventurer, that armor also suffers 1 damage. Armor Value is lowered by every damage point it has suffered. When the AV reaches 0, the armor is essentially just a burden. To damage armor, the attack damage must hurt the target, meaning if the attack does 1 damage to a target with 2 AV, the armor just absorbs it. Neither the target nor the armor takes damage. If the attack does 3 damage to a target with AV 2, the target takes 1 damage (2 damage was negated by the AV), but the Armor also takes 1 damage, lowering it to AV 1.

Armor can be repaired with a Smith’s Repair Kit. A single kit can repair 1 AV worth of damage, and the repair takes 30 minutes and a successful Repair skill check. Armor can be repaired back to its full AV value, but not above.

Shields do not take damage in this way, as they are made to absorb damage. Shields only take damage as listed for Special damage or during Parry attempts. This only applies to armor worn on the body, not natural armor like tough skin or scales. Some spells that replicate armor may also take damage, as noted in the spell descriptions.

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I think your rule on armour is very workable, it makes sense and would be consistent. In my experience, players are happy with rules as long as they make sense to them. Repair is a good option although you might want to add a leather-worker to do the leather work and stitching etc as I'm not sure a metal armourer has that in their skill set.

I'm curious why you didn't include shields (and possibly weapons used for parrying too as they were often targeted by an attacker who had a heavier weapon) in depreciating damage. They were made to absorb damage but can still be hacked apart by concerted attacks with chopping and slashing weapons. A lot of shields were made of wood sheeted with leather or metal and will gradually be destroyed by blocking such damage. 

Personally, although it makes combat a lot more realistic in that in the real world, weapons break, shields get smashed apart and armour often needed repaired following battles, I would not use it as it adds another layer of book-keeping that slows down an already slow combat system. It has much to do with my style of play and an inbuilt laziness on my part to such things but as combat plays a very little part in most of the games I run it tends not to be on my mind a lot. However, I find it interesting and would be keen to hear how it went in the future after you have trialled it.

If I remember correctly early versions of Stormbringer were littered with broken weapons and shields. RQ3 also had system for damage to shields and weapons, though I can't remember if armour was included (No doubt some of the contributors on here, who've better memories for these things will let us know).

Let us know how it goes once you've collated everyones opinions

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Good catch on the repair statement. I have Woodworkers, Leatherworkers, and Smiths Repair kits, so I changed the wording to "Armor can be repaired with a relevant Repair Kit"
 

The reason I left the shields and weapons out of this spot rule is that they already have rules about shield and weapon damage for parrying. My thought process was that when damage is applied to a person, it has to go through the body armor, so that is what takes away the AV of worn armor. 

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I think it's too harsh.  Armor that protects for 5 is not made useless by 5 damage.  It has a hole or dent in it somewhere, but unless the next blow hits the same spot,  it will protect against that next hit.

Think about an arrow piercing armor: it just breaks through an inch or two of leather or linen, or breaks a couple of chainmail links, or even puts a hole in plate.  But if the next arrow hits three inches to the left, why should it not be stopped?

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Posted (edited)

Yes, I agree that would be too harsh, if it eliminated all damage. When I meant it to mean is when damage "breaks through" to damage the wearer, it does 1 damage to the AV. So if it was AV 5, and the attack does 6 damage, 1 damage goes over the AV to the wearer, and the Armor takes 1 damage. So it would then be AV 4. In a battle, if a person with Armor that was AV 5 took a total of 5 hits, that also had enough damage to go over the current AV, you could end up with broken armor after a single battle, but not after a single combat round.

Edited by mbielaczyc
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1 minute ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I think it's too harsh.  Armor that protects for 5 is not made useless by 5 damage.

Quoted for concurrence, though I see where you're coming from.  When it comes to defending/parrying, there are rules where a Special or Critical attack may damage the defending shield or weapon, but there's no similar rule for passive defense with armor.  Simply exceeding the armor's capacity to protect doesn't necessarily mean that it's been ruined -- there are other means for energy to be transferred through the armor to the body on the other side.  That's where Specials and Criticals signify that extra bit of something's-gone-wrong.

However, rather than developing a new system of applying Specials and Criticals to passive defense, perhaps look to the Minor/Major Wounds rules for inspiration (BRP:UGE p.p. 134-135).  Instead of a character's HPs taking damage, though, it's the character's APs.  It'll require a rewrite of the Major Wounds table, though a lot of the result descriptions suggest some good leads for how the armor will be affected.

!i!

carbon copy logo smallest.jpg  ...developer of White Rabbit Green

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Follow-up:  I just noodled through the "equal to or more than half" rule from Major Wounds for applying armor attrition, and it still seems overpowered, maybe moreso...

Full Plate (8 APs)
4 points damage in a single blow incurs a roll on a "Major Damage" table, reducing APs accordingly.
Shame to beat up such an expensive suit so easily.

Lamellar (6 APs)
3 points damage incurs damage to the armor and reduces its APs accordingly.
Same as above.

Hard Leather (2 APs)
1 point of damage reduces its APs accordingly.  The next blow that lands will render it scrap.
Awfully harsh to ruin an entire suit of leather armor in one blow, two tops.

Going through that exercise, I'm looking back to Specials and Criticals as the trigger mechanism for the "equal to or more than half" rule.  Maybe use one or both as the trigger for your rule?

!i!

Edited by Ian Absentia

carbon copy logo smallest.jpg  ...developer of White Rabbit Green

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So, if you go with the full value that has to be overcome (Full Plate 8, Hard Leather 2), it would mean that armor gets damaged less than if using the "equal to or more than half rule" because to damage armor you have to do more than the Armor Value to damage it. And it wouldn't ruin it, just basically lower the Armor Value for that battle, as a repair kit (which isn't that costly) can be used afterwards to repair it back up to max with some skill checks.

In my games, it seems like battles tend to be around 3 to 4 rounds for an equally matched fight. To me, this just seems that it would take armor down a couple of notches for the frontline fighters, but in 3 to 4 rounds, armor would in no way be negated. If my past games, it seems like the heavily armored guys just absorb so much damage, with hits rarely going over their AV (btw I am basing this on rules from the BRP 2023 book).

I am going to take a look at the Major Wounds chart tonight. I will also mock up a few battles in Fantasy Grounds and see how it goes. The depreciating armor worked well in my Cyberpunk Red campaign, which is where I got this idea. 

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This rule is very similar to the one for damaging weapons in RQ3. Basically if the Armor Points of a parry object were exceeded the value went down a point. So if a Sword (10 AP) parried a 15 point hit it would stop 10 points (and become a 9 AP sword) with 5 points getting though to the defender, who hopefully had 5 points of armor.

Oh, and it probably wouldn't matter for your purpose but if the parrying weapon/shield were deliberately attacked then any excess came off of the armor rating. So if that Sword above was struct again for another 15 points, 6 points (15-9=6) would come ff the sword, reducing it to 3 AP. 

Oh, and realistically shield tend to break faster than anything else.  They are generally designed to be disposable, as making them too tough makes them too heavy.. 

 

If you are using hit locations then I don't think it is too harsh, since you'd have to hit the same location, which probably means hitting the damaged piece. Damage isn't entirely localized, that is if you dent someone helmet you probably weakened the whole helmet somewhat, not just the dented spot. 

But if you are using general armor then maybe you should do like they did for ElfQuest and give the wearer a luck roll to be hit on a strong spot. Say it starts out easy (or very easy) and increases in difficulty as the armor gets damaged. Say easy at 75% value, normal at half, difficult at 25%, and so on. An opponent could always try a called shot to target the damaged location. 

BTW, the biggest bug with damaging armor tends to be that it becomes one more thing people have to keep track of and spend time and money on to fix. So your PCs will be spending more game time trying to keep their armor in top condition. 

 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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50 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

BTW, the biggest bug with damaging armor tends to be that it becomes one more thing people have to keep track of and spend time and money on to fix. So your PCs will be spending more game time trying to keep their armor in top condition. 

 

Yeah, that is definitely a worry. In Cyberpunk, it didn't matter since most nights were a single run, and everyone ended up back home at the end.

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1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

If you are using hit locations then I don't think it is too harsh, since you'd have to hit the same location, which probably means hitting the damaged piece.

This occurred to me, too, and it's the situation where I might even appreciate seeing some attrition to armor.  Knocking pieces loose here and there has an air of verisimilitude.

It is a lot of fiddly bookkeeping, though.

!i!

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2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

BTW, the biggest bug with damaging armor tends to be that it becomes one more thing people have to keep track of and spend time and money on to fix. So your PCs will be spending more game time trying to keep their armor in top condition. 

 

 

I agree with this. Tracking armour 'hit points' or worrying about damaging it with every hit is fiddly and distracting.

If I was to implement such a system I would consider just having a 'damaged' state for armour and shields; if a piece of armour is 'damaged' it would only offer half protection until repaired (works with either fixed or random armour). I would have some kind of save or resistance roll for the armour, but only upon receiving a major blow (ie. critical or special). That way you don't add administrative overhead to every single strike, which slows things down. If a damaged piece of armour gets damaged again it is destroyed and useless.

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Might be a solution (for the original description) to just change the phrasing to "Armor Value is lowered by 1 for every 10 damage points it has suffered."

This would mean giving each armour piece 10 times (you can change the multiplier, of course) more health points than the AP they have.

Edited by Susimetsa
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3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

BTW, the biggest bug with damaging armor tends to be that it becomes one more thing people have to keep track of and spend time and money on to fix. So your PCs will be spending more game time trying to keep their armor in top condition.

True, but it may appeal to more simulationist gamers. After all, maintaining one's gear has been a major part of the life of most fighters and soldiers in history (unless you were a knight or otherwise rich enough to have lackeys for that).

Edited by Susimetsa
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10 hours ago, Susimetsa said:

Might be a solution (for the original description) to just change the phrasing to "Armor Value is lowered by 1 for every 10 damage points it has suffered."

This would mean giving each armour piece 10 times (you can change the multiplier, of course) more health points than the AP they have.

I think this is more practical, and from my long ago experience in HEMA and medieval re-enactment, feels both plausible and playable. But I would also make it "Armor Value is lowered by 1 for every 10 damage points it has suffered without maintenance." - so if a character spends a few hours going over their armour to perform appropriate basic maintenance (repair / replace straps that are worn or cut, clean and re-treat armour to minimize corrosion etc) it mitigates what's going on. To recover lost AV requires an actual armourer with suitable skill.

For example, in a combat a character takes 8 points of damage - if they perform maintenance on their armour before they are next in combat, the "count" is reset. If in combat they take 15 points of damage, the armour is reduced in effectiveness by 1, and is "carrying" 5 points. That five points can be expunged by maintenance, but to recover the lost 1 point of AV will require repair.

Exact skills / consumables / time scales would be adjusted to suit campaign: I suspect one would want to set different thresholds etc for e.g. a fantasy Egyptian Old Kingdom game versus a Malazan Book of the Fallen game versus an Asteroid Miners circa 2100 game...

Edited by NickMiddleton
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It's a tough one.

In Mythras damage to armor is done through a special effect available to some weapons (polearms, axes, maces).

Meaning it's relatively common and easy, but it doesn't just happen all the time.

A combat effect is a bonus effect you have when the degree of success (critical, normal) of your attack/defense is better than your opponent. IN BRP there is fix effect per weapon type (Bleed, Impale, etc..) but in Mythras you get a longer list. In this case the sunder effect, available to Axes,Polearm,Maces on attack, reduce the AP as you originally suggested.

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11 hours ago, mbielaczyc said:

Yeah, that is definitely a worry. In Cyberpunk, it didn't matter since most nights were a single run, and everyone ended up back home at the end.

Yeah, and in Cyberpunk you could always buy a new ballistic vest at the mall - probably at CVS! And in such a game you don't really need to track the damage much either. It's more of a thing for games where armor is expensive, harder to replace, and there is lots of combat on adventures so that PCs could be forced to use damaged armor for part of or several adventures.

11 hours ago, mbielaczyc said:

On another side of this, Acid, in the BRP 2023, does damage armor,

IMO, acid  damaging armor is is fine. It's something of a special case though, and not likely to happen that often.

11 hours ago, mbielaczyc said:

so I would just see my groups always carrying acid around 😂

Really? I wonder why. I mean in BRP type games weapon damage vs.armor & hit points is usually high enough that you can probably drop someone fast enough to make armor damage moot.

10 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

This occurred to me, too, and it's the situation where I might even appreciate seeing some attrition to armor.  Knocking pieces loose here and there has an air of verisimilitude.

Yeah, although old RQ handled this with the fumble table. You'd mess up, roll on the tble, and a piece of armor would fall off. 

10 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

It is a lot of fiddly bookkeeping, though.

!i!

Yes, unless we can simplfy it somehow. Maybe just putting damage boxes on the character sheets? 

T&T gives a LUCK save to avoid the damage to armor when exceeded- maybe that might help?

Also there is a difference between how much impact armor will stop and how much it takes to actually damage it. Like if the Hulk punches a tank into you. THere's a good chance that, unless you have superpowers, you'd be dead long before the armor go damaged. 

Or what if we took a page from Pendragon's old Double Feint rule and just required some sort of roll (say DEXx5%) to bypass some of the AP. Damage would just increase the multiple of DEX?

Just tossing idea out there to see what sticks. Pre-coffee too. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Questbird said:

I agree with this. Tracking armour 'hit points' or worrying about damaging it with every hit is fiddly and distracting.

Yeah, but then so is tracking hit points or parry weapons and even for characters. It's a trade off. It comes down to if it is worth for a given group in a given campaign. I could see it being useful if I were running a post apocalyptic type game where the characters couldn't replace their body armor all that easily. Ot if a knight's ship got blown off course and he wounded up in the New World, where armorers would be scarce, ala Prince Valiant. 

But for a typical FRPG group, this probably means spending more time going back to town to get thier armor fixed. In RQ3 the higher cost of armor would make this a drain on their finances too. In RQ2 everybody would probably learn REPAIR and magically heal their armor after a battle, which would drain magic points (excuse me, temporary POW).

In the end it's mostly going to mean that you won't be able to scavenge as much armor off of you opponents after a fight. 

But it comes down to what the GM is trying to achieve. 

8 hours ago, Questbird said:

If I was to implement such a system I would consider just having a 'damaged' state for armour and shields; if a piece of armour is 'damaged' it would only offer half protection until repaired (works with either fixed or random armour). I would have some kind of save or resistance roll for the armour, but only upon receiving a major blow (ie. critical or special). That way you don't add administrative overhead to every single strike, which slows things down. If a damaged piece of armour gets damaged again it is destroyed and useless.

That works. Lower AP for weapons and shields worked fine in RQ3. It's still my favorite way of tracking weapon damage in BRP, and by a wide margin. But tracking multiple pieces of armor, could get fiddly. Especially if it's just 1 point here and there. If damage is getting past the armor the character has more important stuff to worry about (like the body parts getting damage underneath the armor). 

I'd probably give armor a threshold, since it usually takes a lot more force to damage the armor than to damage the one wearing it. Maybe exceed  2x AP to actually hurt the armor.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Posted (edited)

Ok, so after some playing around last night, what we have brainstormed is right. It is too fiddly, and it is too harsh. I don't want my players carrying 20 repair kits.

And the worst? I was trying to track all the armor damage to baddies. Phew. 

 

Oh and thank you all for talking through this with me! What a welcoming community!

Edited by mbielaczyc
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I think we're all glad to assist -- it's a welcome opportunity to flex some brain muscles.  And as mentioned up-thread, you've put your finger on a gap in describing damage to combat equipment, which is the sort of thing that's sure to get attention.

!i!

Addendum:  Everyone have a look at the Attack and Defense Matrix on p. 127.  This table bears more than casual resemblance to the Differential Roll Results in Mythras, and there are several results that describe damage to attacking/parrying weapons or shields.  I think this is the table that could be modified to include damage to armor as well, resulting from a Special/Critical attack vs Fumble defense.

Edited by Ian Absentia
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1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

A dangerous time to be thinking!🧐 🙃

SDLeary

 

No, but it iis eally hard for me to start doing the thinking. 

Way back when I did up the Critter Fitter (a tool to stat up creatures by scaling a similar creature) and sent it off to a partner in the project, he contacted me the next morning with questions about what it was doing "behind the scenes" and my reasoning for doing "X" or "Y". He could literally tell how much coffee I had drunk by how lucid my answers were and how well I could explain my math, though emails!. It' was like that WKRP episode where Johnny's reflexes get better the more alcohol he consumes. At the begging my partner had to point out stuff for me and I had to try and help me reverse engineer my previous work, while by the end, I was all " that's due to the cube-square law", " Size would be base ten log of one twenty-fifth of the kilograms divided by the base ten log of two, times eight, rounded down" and "I needed to go into negative size scores, like in Superworld to get the scaling bonuses right for small creatures, then convert it to RQ scale later". 

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Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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59 minutes ago, mbielaczyc said:

Ok, so after some playing around last night, what we have brainstormed is right. It is too fiddly, and it is too harsh. I don't want my players carrying 20 repair kits.

So was there anything about it that you liked and wanted to salvage? Sometimes the idea is good but it fails in the execution. 

In my old Star Trek campaign I used to test out new houserules in the holodeck. If it worked good I kept it, and if it didn't. well bad programming. It was  nice becuase if I messed up a rule really badly and the players figured out an exploit, it was treated like finding and exploting a bug in a computer game as opposed to the GM messing up. I got better playtesters that way too as they were looking for bugs to exploit in a holodeck game.

In cyberpunk you could do that with the net. Just have them Jack into a VR setting to test out any new ideas.

59 minutes ago, mbielaczyc said:

And the worst? I was trying to track all the armor damage to baddies. Phew. 

You can usually cheat on that. Just maake a mark on a big hit and take something off some armor later. We used to do something like that in RQ for NPC hit locations. Just a tick box for a minor injuries, while we waited for good hits (if the good hit doesn't drop a foe outright then, two good hits drops most foes). It fakes it fairly well.

59 minutes ago, mbielaczyc said:

 

Oh and thank you all for talking through this with me! What a welcoming community!

You're welcome, but this kinda stuff is fun, and often pays dividends for us. 

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Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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11 hours ago, mbielaczyc said:

I may try it that Crit Hits and Specials do damage to Armor, which would be less likely, but still have some of the flavor I wanted to go for.

This is probably the right move as these are considered "hard" hits. To somewhat counter this though, I'd probably also allow plate to get off scot free unless the hit was from something nasty, like a Pollax or a Military Pick. 

For some flavor, if your characters are on a long campaign, you might also want to listen closely to the fighters in the group when you ask them what they are doing in the down time. And if they omit to mention care of weapons and amor, have them make luck rolls to avoid short term reductions of AP.

SDLeary

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