Prax pantheon worshippers in Sacred Time

[Squaredeal Sten]

Examinatuiion of my hard copy Gloranthan calander shows no Sacred Time high holy days marked for Eiritha, Storm Bull, and their son Waha.  On the other hand Daka Fal is marked for every day in Sacred Time.

What does this imply for Praxians in Sacred time?  Does eveyone participate in Daka Fal ancestor worship,. presumably summoning so the ancestors can all criticize and say you're not doing X like in the old days? 

I would think that since Waha and Eiritha are the two dominant Praxian cults, they would be doing a lot at Sacred Time.  In-world heroquests of course.  Maybe some emphasis on I fought We Won. 

Your thoughts?

 

 

Edited August 8 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling / typing

[svensson]

Good question.

On the one hand the calendar does not mark many deities as having any specific Sacred Time activities. On the other is the flat out statement that the vast majority of living sentient beings treat Sacred Time as... well, sacred.

Since Waha and Eiritha are cultural framework gods... they provide the rules by which their culture exists... I would tend to think they DO have Sacred Time rituals. If nothing else, they'd venerate Genert and mourn his death.

But this might be a question for @Scotty's Q&A thread.

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Examinatuiion of my hard copy Gloranthan calander shows no Sacred Time high holy days marked for Eiritha, Storm Bull, and their son Waha.  On the other hand Daka Fal is marked for every day in Sacred Time.

Correct

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

What does this imply for Praxians in Sacred time? 

This entirely depends on the cult make up of the tribe, which varies (per Mythology 155-156)

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I would think that since Waha and Eiritha are the two dominant Praxian cults, they would be doing a lot at Sacred Time.  In-world heroquests of course.  Maybe some emphasis on I fought We Won. 

Your thoughts?

Daka Fal worship usually ranges from 3-8% in the tribes, with a whopping 19% in the Morokanth where it is still only number three to Waha and Eiritha. At Sacred time, those families that focus on ancestor worship will welcome their ancestors into their lives for most of sacred time, with the axis mundi covering the whole herd and camp. Ancestors will come and go helping in the day to day tasks they once did. Lay members can attend if they wish hoping to meet someone they once knew. Every evening there is a great feast around the fire with the living and dead telling stories, dancing and celebrating. 

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Does everyone participate in Daka Fal ancestor worship,. presumably summoning so the ancestors can all criticize and say you're not doing X like in the old days? 

The ancestors are thankful to be remembered, there's no criticising. This is a joyous time.

The Storm Bulls protect the ceremonies from chaos attacks, which are expected to happen. Waha is a culture hero, so there is much reenacting of his feats and Eirithan's tend their herd with their ancestors. In the Impala tribe where Orlanth is just as important as Waha, the Ligthbringers quest is enacted. Amongst the Sable, Yelmalio takes the place of storm Bull, keeping Chaos at bay.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

Waha is a culture hero, so there is much reenacting of his feats and Eirithan's tend their herd with their ancestors. In the Impala tribe where Orlanth is just as important as Waha, the Ligthbringers quest is enacted. Amongst the Sable, Yelmalio takes the place of storm Bull, keeping Chaos at bay.

Most of Waha's myths figure Waha as a lone hero doing things (digging the Good Canal, rescuing the Protectresses...). Are there any tasks (feats) of Waha that included the ancestors (and possibly founders) of the tribes that would attract ancestors during Sacred Time?

[David Scott]

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Most of Waha's myths figure Waha as a lone hero doing things (digging the Good Canal, rescuing the Protectresses...). Are there any tasks (feats) of Waha that included the ancestors (and possibly founders) of the tribes that would attract ancestors during Sacred Time?

A lot of his stories are one-liners, his loyal supporters that helped him, aren't mentioned. (Otherwise rituals would be very boring).

• Waha and his loyal supporters tamed the world and returned it to order.
• They fought the wildfire god Oakfed and tamed it to be a friend to men.
• They used the earth-powers of his mother to dig a great canal through the earth.
• Waha and his loyal supporters liberated the Daughters of Eiritha who were imprisoned by the forces of Kyger Litor.
• Then Waha and his loyal supporters performed his greatest deed—the arranging of the Survival Covenant. 

[Joerg]

Waha and his loyal supporters...

Spelling the possibilities of this involvement out and providing guidelines how to make this into scenarios might be one of the missing pieces of the RQG rules complex, much more so than say spot rules for underwater combat or aerial maneuvers. Hero Wars formalized something like this, although in a somewhat clumsy way, with the "Four Weapons" followers for Sartarites in the Sartar Rising series.

The problem is how to implement this in-game without "we trod alongside the Mary-Sue subject of the myth", with more player contribution, but without making the main mask of the myth just some puppet carried through the myth. (This latter can be amusing once in a while, and was masterfully implemented in Nick's The Black Spear, but should not be the default way to engage in a traditional heroquest.)

In case of "Our shared Ancestor did X when Waha did Y" experiences shared during Sacred Time ancestor rites, how would one play this out?

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 8/9/2024 at 5:45 AM, Joerg said:

Waha and his loyal supporters...

The problem is how to implement this in-game....

In case of "Our shared Ancestor did X when Waha did Y" experiences shared during Sacred Time ancestor rites, how would one play this out?

I don't have a complete answer, only a fragment to suggest:

When it comes to the Survival Covenent, the passion play requires drawing lots.  A participant is needed for each human tribe and each non human (Morokanth + herd animals).

 Participants wear identifying masks and other regalia like skins.  If you play an Impala, you wear an Impala skin and a mask with Impala horns.

The lots are. of course. fixed before the draw  so most of the men get the carnivore lots as they did in myth.  How they are fixed is by the Waha participant,  who has a leather bag of tokens (marked with man and beast runes).  Waha- offers the bag with his right hand at the opening and his left hand inside the bag to give chosen tokens.  Except the Morokanth has his own lot palmed and does his own switch, so the last man to draw gets a beast token because Waha didn't make extras.  Yes of course it's a double cheat, that's a cult secret known to the Rune shaman - priests but the senior Initiates do feel the fingers in the bag.

Those who draw the beast rune fall down on all fours.

Maybe as a new initiate you get the role of making the lots.  As an experienced initiate  you get the role of a human who, at the end, strips the skin from an animal, ritually slaughtering it.  Or maybe as a newbie you help in the sacrificial barbecue. using real herd animals.  Roll your  worshjp and peaceful cut.

Edited August 10 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling / typing

[mfbrandi]

19 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

presumably summoning so the ancestors can all criticize and say you're not doing X like in the old days

Nagging for two weeks solid. Genius. If this isn’t true, you should make it true, now and forever.

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

When it comes to the Survival Covenent, the passion play requires drawing lots.

I like the idea that the humans in each tribe draw lots and the loser is turned into a herd man, subjected to the peaceful cut, cooked, and eaten. That is why Waha doesn’t advertise his sacred Time holy day in any publicly available calendar.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

the main mask of the myth [is] just some puppet carried through the myth …, but [this] should not be the default way to engage in a traditional heroquest.

Although this undermining of the “great man” theory of myth has immense appeal — all the important tasks were accomplished by the little people working in concert and the “hero” of any myth is less than a Don Quixote. Just there to draw fire from an angry otherworld? Blue collar Glorantha has always known that its “Trumps” are impotent windbags, right?

[radmonger]

19 hours ago, svensson said:

On the other is the flat out statement that the vast majority of living sentient beings treat Sacred Time as... well, sacred.

Vest majority does not mean all. Perhaps Sacred Time is less significant in Prax, simply because Prax never actually got properly renewed and recreated? Waha's core myths are not about the renewal of the world, but of survival until such renewal becomes possible.

Over 1600 years after the Dawn, Prax is still one of the few places the Lighttbringer missionaries have never really been dominant. Perhaps, between the Pol Joni, New Pavis, the increasing prevalence of Orlanthi among the tribes, and the White Bull Society led by a Sartarite exil, time is finally ripe for the same change emost other places went through before 300 ST?

A  verdant Prax, Genert's garden reborn, would require a lot more magical maintenance, in the form of Sacred Time renewal, than the sparse population of current Prax could support. However, a fertile land could support the population required for those rituals. It;s just that such a population would have little in common with the current form of Praxian society.

Hence the stuff from Cults of Prax about Issaries Desert Trackers collecting hyena skins...

 

 

[David Scott]

18 hours ago, radmonger said:

Over 1600 years after the Dawn, Prax is still one of the few places the Lighttbringer missionaries have never really been dominant. Perhaps, between the Pol Joni, New Pavis, the increasing prevalence of Orlanthi among the tribes, and the White Bull Society led by a Sartarite exil, time is finally ripe for the same change emost other places went through before 300 ST?

The tribes of Prax were a Lightbringer pantheon dominated culture from 35 ST when the Theylan missionaries arrived at the Paps. It wasn't until the second age migrations into the Wastes that Waha came to the forefront (don't forget he is Orlanth's nephew, and part of that pantheon too). Orlanth is still holds a dominant position in some tribes.

[David Scott]

On 8/9/2024 at 11:45 AM, Joerg said:

The problem is how to implement this in-game without "we trod alongside the Mary-Sue subject of the myth",

In case of "Our shared Ancestor did X when Waha did Y" experiences shared during Sacred Time ancestor rites, how would one play this out?

Straight off II don't think this is very interesting roleplaying opportunity, it's a set ceremony with a known outcome. I've previously run these as Pendragon style solos and run a group through them together, but with a separate experience.

Quote

Waha and Oakfed (Solo or Group)

In the Great Darkness, Oakfed burned the world, helped by those he warmed. As Waha approached him, Oakfed burned hotter. Waha knew someone who had a tame fire. He went to Helpwoman and asked how she kept her cooking fire under control. She taught him the secrets of being a firekeeper, and showed him how to make his own sacred fire horn. Now Waha approached Oakfed, and taunted him that he could not burn what was inside. Oakfed leapt and Waha caught him. Waha knew that Oakfed and his family had had useful skills. They helped people survive. He made Oakfed and his family a new home in the Burners spirit society, and promised to release Oakfed and his family if they will help everyone who is a firekeeper.

Task: Learn to be a firekeeper from Helpwoman.

1. Ask Helpwoman to teach you: Custom (Prax), Orate, or Charm. +1% per L gifted. +50% if you already know ignite. If you have completed the task of Waha and Foundchild +50% Outcome treated as an augment for step 2.
   • If you learn Ignite from her over one week, you make a Firehorn as the ignite focus, and skip step 2. 
2. Make a firehorn. Craft (Bone). Outcome treated as an augment for step 4.
3. Travel to your preferred encounter location (can be done as a group)
   • Monkey Ruins -  angry baboon encounter, use a tough one (you can die). If you succeed all baboons hate you 60%). If successful go to step 4. 
   • Fireground - Spirit travel roll. (can be augmented separately)
     • Critical - Meet a spirit ally who can helps you against Oakfed (if prepared you may bind them afterwards) +50% to step 4.
     • Special - Meet an additional D20 Waha initiates on the task, +1% per initiate to step 4
     • Success - You arrive at the Fireground. If others are still with you, +1% per initiate to step 4
     • Fail - You are lost in the Fireground for 3D6 days, and if exceeds the 2 weeks of Sacred time you fail. Receive burn scars = days/4.
     • Fumble - You are lost in the spirit world, your starved body suffers, -1 CON (can be regained over time) per week. Your cult shaman attempt may find your spirit once per week in the Fireground. Receive burn scars = days/4. You die when your CON reaches 0.
4. Trick Oakfed into the Firehorn. Use either your Death or Man Rune, but can use Fire. Use any bonuses from previous steps.

Reputation:

• If you learned ignite from Helpwoman +2%
• Successfully encountered Oakfed at the Monkey Ruins +2%
• Successfully encountered Oakfed at the Fireground +5%
• If you did it alone +1%
• You only get the reputation on the first success. Other success receive only +1%

. Fireground

This eternally burning area is where Oakfed first touched down, any Praxian Fire spirit maybe found here, along with Oakfed. Only well prepared heroes are able to survive here. If they wish to reach the Sky World, they will first need to pass the Fire Guardians.

This where Waha initiates can learn Cremate Dead from Waha.

 

Use this format for other Sacred time tasks or for Rune magic ceremonies.

 

Edited August 10 by David Scott

[Geoff R Evil]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

The tribes of Prax were a Lightbringer pantheon dominated culture from 35 ST when the Theylan missionaries arrived at the Paps. It wasn't until the second age migrations into the Wastes that Waha came to the forefront (don't forget he is Orlanth's nephew, and part of that pantheon too).

I had forgotten this little gem. Perfect for my Pol Joni campaign. They have just buddied up to Pavis post Argrath invasion, and successfully become a clan (only so far) asked to protect Pavis County from the re invigorated Covenant tribes that helped take Pavis back with Argrath so they think Pavis County is there’s to plunder too. Pavis is too weak late 2025, because Argrath took many of the best sarterite and dorasorian Orlanthi with him to Sartar, leaving a martial vacuum the tribes are taking advantage of. So to me it makes perfect sense for the Pol Joni, who in my game are not invited to the white bull because they are not covenant, and thus we’re not heavily involved in taking back Pavis or the follow up fight in Sartar, to be a martial resource much sought after. The fact they have historic links to the Zebra tribe as friends, helps too. So maybe there is a bigger play opportunity here, for Orlanthi Pol Joni with Pavis support to perhaps drive a stronger Orlanthi dominance in the covenant tribes. It may help that I have set wheels in motion that might mean the PolJoni PC clan might find a way to breed a horse that can be accepted in the covenant…. A true merger opportunity of Orlanthi and waha…uncle and nephew

[mfbrandi]

23 hours ago, radmonger said:

A verdant Prax, Genert’s garden reborn, would require a lot more magical maintenance, in the form of Sacred Time renewal, than the sparse population of current Prax could support.

Perhaps this is one reason Argrath is plotting a post-magical ecology?

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 8/10/2024 at 10:16 AM, David Scott said:

Straight off II don't think this is very interesting roleplaying opportunity, it's a set ceremony with a known outcome. I've previously run these as Pendragon style solos and run a group through them together, but with a separate experience.

 

Use this format for other Sacred time tasks or for Rune magic ceremonies.

 

For last Friday's session I had three such prepared.  One key player was absent so i didn't get to run the Daka Fal one.  I ran the other two,

You're right, neither of the two (Waha and Issaries) is a very interesting role play.   They were never meant to occupy a whole game session. But this does three things: (1) It's  Sacred time events:  Establishes Sacred time as something that actually happens in the game, something your Adventurers live through and that players might remember  not just year-end die rolls with the RQG book open.  (2) Sets up  for future years when more of the Adventurers will be more senior initiates or even Rune level and  might reasonably expect to occupy places in a heroquest. (3) Sets up context for their Sacred Time worship rolls, and gives a little extra cult related experience.

Yes i could have done the "you guard the ceremony, there is a chaos incursion and fight" bit, but it violates suspension of disbelief for that the happen every single Sacred Time, and when it does happen the players and Adventurers should be surprised.  Rather than the players coming to every Sacred Time  ceremony with all their weapons and armor on and magic protection up, (or in modern RW terms having dug fighting positions and set up claymore mines and concertina for what they know is coming).