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Overthinking raid details


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Hi yall 🙂
I am working, cough, cough, very slowly, cough, cough, on a "viking like" campaign (not actually on earth, with magic).
Where the players are part of the raiding force!

Now, while I put a few magical place with monster and other brainless stuff, I was planning to have (quite?) a few temple and town raid, and also an invasion force and some trades.

Now I wonder how many temples can they realistically raid? How often? How would they get a map or find places? Who would they be trading with (apparently the real Viking were plundering a foreign country and trading back at home from a cursory search, but I was wondering about local trade)

Another thing I was wondering about, there will be quite a few boat of them... which begs the question how they regroup (I Think of some magic trinket, but other idea welcome), plus if there is a big force, that kind of force them to group up and attack towns or something to be worth  it, is it?

Basically I am trying to make somewhat realistic and big and I have little experience and knowledge - literary or otherwise about such event.

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You might want to check out the old RQ Vikings supplement for more information on this topic, or any of the early editions of Mythic Iceland. 

Something is in the works that hits this spot exactly for you, but I can't say any more. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Jason D said:

You might want to check out the old RQ Vikings supplement for more information on this topic, or any of the early editions of Mythic Iceland. 

Something is in the works that hits this spot exactly for you, but I can't say any more. 

 

Hey! it looks like I might want to do that! ^_^ 

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I have RQ3 Vikings. It gives a rough overview of raiding. Using it, plus some stuff from Pendragon and common sense, I'll take a stab at answering your questions.

5 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Now I wonder how many temples can they realistically raid?

It depends on how bit their raiding force is, how well the temples are defended and how long the raiders can stick around before someone arrives to kick them out. Remember that whoever they raid probably has some sort of lord that they owe fealty to who is supposed to (and will want to) show up to kick out any raiding force. So the Vikings are working on the clock. They only go so many days before work reaches the local lord, a few more for him to gather a suitably strong froce to crush the vikings, and then a few more for him to get to wherever the viking are. That is assuming the VIkings aren't to strong for him to handle. If they are, then he has to send word to his liege lord, who will have to gather an even larger force.

But raiders will usually not want to stick around long enough for a fight they probably can't win.

5 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

How often?

Viking typically went out raiding over the summer., and making it back home in time for the harvest. So it would be mostly be one raid for whatever they could grab in a season. Really big raids, with multiple ships could stay out raiding far longer (years) but you need a lot more people with a lot more ships for that.

But the typical viking longship would go out for the summer. Now it might go raiding every summer, but it probably wouldn't raid the same place over and over as they probably took all the valuables in the last raid. So no sense going back there for a few years, until the locals can get some more stuff worth stealing.

One limiting factor was the avialbility of ships. Usually someone with a ship said they were going Viking and to where,  and started to recruit volunteers for raid & trade. Things like how the plunder would be split were worked out first. RQ3 has " the owner of the ship gets half the loot" as a common method, with the rest being split equally among the crew. No extra shares for officers and such, that wasn't a Viking thing.

5 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

How would they get a map or find places?

They generally  wouldn't use maps. Getting around by maps is more of a modern thing. What they would do is sail along the coast until they spotted a settlement. Then they would either raid it (if it looked weak) or trade with it (if it didn't). While trading they might ask about other settlements and make note of which ones looked promising to raid or trade with later. Of course once they know about these places they would be aware of them for future trips. So in a few years they would probably have a good idea of where all the coastal settlements or those within a day of the coast were. The father away from the sea a place was, the less they would know about it. Of coruse they'd still hear about all the big settlements. 

5 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Who would they be trading with (apparently the real Viking were plundering a foreign country and trading back at home from a cursory search, but I was wondering about local trade)

Everybody. Vikings sailed to Britain, Ireland, Gaul (France), Russia, and Iceland, not to mention the other Scandinavian countries, or the occasional expedition off to uncharted lands like VInland and North America. Anywhere with a coastline. But in most cases the desire to get back for the harvest would limit them to where they can get to and back in a few months (June-September or so). 

5 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Another thing I was wondering about, there will be quite a few boat of them... which begs the question how they regroup (I Think of some magic trinket, but other idea welcome)

Regroup how? If on land they all meet up wherever the beached the ships. If at sea why would they split up? If something happens to split them up (storms, sea monsters, enemy ships) then they probably won't regroup. Not unless they picked some site beforehand to meet up at. Like "we'll regroup at the Orkneys in September and head back home." Even then, if they could manage to do so would depend on what broke them up. If they get attacked by a Kraken at the Orkneys, they probably will skip the meet up and head back home individual.

5 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

, plus if there is a big force, that kind of force them to group up and attack towns or something to be worth  it, is it?

Yup. Ten ships with ten times the men will want ten times toe loot to make the trip worth it. But also remember you can only fit so much loot onto a ship. In RQ3 a large longship can only carry 20 tons of cargo, and that's with a minimum crew (about 50 rowers). If filled up with warriors (another 200 men) you don't have any room left for cargo. So they will probably not be maxed out if they want to bring the loot back home. 

Remember that most plunder will be in kind, not coin. Basically whatever the place being raided produces. So coastal villages will tend to have crops, livestock, and fish, and not all that much gold and silver. Crops livestock and fish take up a lot of space, and can spoil or die in transit. Gold, silver, and precious gems are much more portable, but not all that common in coastal villages. 

Towns are a better source of wealth, but tend to have more people to fight, walls, and so actual professional warriors who know how to fight, wear armor and are a pain. 

One of the reasons why Vikings raided churches and monasteries so much was because they tended to be low risk/high reward. Just a few priests to deal with, and probably a bit of gold, silver or art.

 

5 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Basically I am trying to make somewhat realistic and big and I have little experience and knowledge - literary or otherwise about such event.

Well if it's a big force then they would probably plan a big raid and hit a lot of places in quick succession (they want to keep ahead of word of their attacks and catch everyone by surprise) or go after someplace big and well defended in force. Maybe even try to take it over and settle there. 

The thing is the Viking probably wouldn't do a big raid out of the blue. They would have been wherever they were going to hit before and find out as much about it as they could before selecting it. So if the raiders were to sail up the Thames to raid London, then you can bet that several of the ship captains had been to London before, and know something of the waterways and defenses. So they shouldn't be surprised to find that London is surrounded by walls. They would have accounted for that in their plans. Of coruse they can't account for everything weather, illness, engineers selling Greek Fire contraptions, local guardian monsters, visiting wizards, happen.

So you probably need to either: 

A. Look at your raiding force and figure out what they could handle and design a suitable target, or

B. Select a target and then figure out what sot of raiding force would be required to attack it, and build you Vikings to suit.

 

BTW, since you have little experience with this stuff (not that I know anyone who has any practical experience), and it a new startup, why not start small and build up to the big raid? It would be easier on you and on your players. Let then go on a small raid of two and get the feel of it and then have them join up for the big raid. It will even make the big raid seem special, which it should be.  

 

Or is the big raid the catalyst for the campaign?

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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2 hours ago, Jason D said:

Something is in the works that hits this spot exactly for you, but I can't say any more. 

That sounds very interesting.. can you say in which genre? and for which system?

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1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:
8 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Now I wonder how many temples can they realistically raid?

It depends on how bit their raiding force is, how well the temples are defended and how long the raiders can stick around before someone arrives to kick them out. Remember that whoever they raid probably has some sort of lord that they owe fealty to who is supposed to (and will want to) show up to kick out any raiding force. So the Vikings are working on the clock. They only go so many days before work reaches the local lord, a few more for him to gather a suitably strong froce to crush the vikings, and then a few more for him to get to wherever the viking are. That is assuming the VIkings aren't to strong for him to handle. If they are, then he has to send word to his liege lord, who will have to gather an even larger force.

But raiders will usually not want to stick around long enough for a fight they probably can't win.

I will read the whole thing tomorrow (very late now) but thanks 🙂 

But an immediate reaction, I mean... how many temples is there to loot?
I am thinking, they should be quickly running out of temples and villages?

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14 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

...
But an immediate reaction, I mean... how many temples is there to loot?
I am thinking, they should be quickly running out of temples and villages?

In the RL, churches in France/England/Ireland provided *centuries* of raiding targets for the vikings...

Edited by g33k
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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, g33k said:

In the RL, churches in France/England/Ireland provided *centuries* of raiding targets for the vikings...

I just used Math to answer my own question!

They had like 5 million people in England in the old days? With lots of places with less than 500 people... that's a lot of places!

However lot of places have no wealth beyond, I guess food (which is good) and perhaps capture the people to sell?

Edited by Lloyd Dupont
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10 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I will read the whole thing tomorrow (very late now) but thanks 🙂 

Hope it helps

 

10 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

But an immediate reaction, I mean... how many temples is there to loot?

Depends on where you are and what you count as a temple. To paraphase from Highlander you can't swing a dead cat in japan without hitting a temple or a shrine.

You have to figure that each settlement has at least one place of worship, maybe more if it has more than one faith or a polytheistic one. So you could loot the temple of Apollo, Zeus, Aphrodite, Poseidon, etc. 

 

10 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I am thinking, they should be quickly running out of temples and villages?

They could. But keepin mind that the raiders would know that going in. So if they have enough time to raid, say ten settlements on a trip, and each raid provides X amount of loot. Then they should have some idea of how profitable such a raid would be, and how many men to bring for it to be worth it. 

 

For example, if each village can provide, say 1D6 librum in plunder, with one librum equal to a pound of silver (that's why the call the coin a pound) or enough food to sustain a household for one year, then you can come up with a good estimate of  how much plunder to expect and what each man's share would be. If you got ten places to raid an expect 10D6 libra worth of loot, then you know that if you have about 35 vikings, each man will make enough to provide for his household for a year. Although for Vikings marks (worth about 2/3rds of a librium) might be better than libra, and say 1D10 marks in plunder per settlement.

Pendragon is very good for this sort of thing. RQ3 wasn't bad at it either. Generally anything worth a lot of money other that gold, silver, weapons, armor or gems tends to take up a lot of space and is hard to move around. A lot of treasure in Pendragon isn't gold but tapestries, pieces of furniture, statues, and other not-so-portable stuff. Just imagine Vikings trying to steal your garden gnomes, bug zapper, and porch swing. 

 

So if you got a big raid planned with a huge fleet, there must be something very valuable for them to go after. 

 

 

 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Lloyd .. I'd look at historical raids.. I haven't looked but I'm sure it's on Wikipedia and most of the big raids were historically well documented. It was usually written down by monks so just like the tabloid press these days it had shock-horror headlines.

Lindisfarne was the first viking raid in Western Europe in 793CE and is often used as the marker for the beginning of the Viking Age. There are other historical raids from large ones to individual ships.

Look at the Great Army of 865CE and how they operated as a massive raid. Look at Alfreds response to Danish incursion by building fortified Burhs in the 9th Century to defend the population against raids.

Look at some of the tactics the Vikings used. Landing on an islet and fortifying it. Rounding up all the horses in the area to extend the scope and area of the raid. Look at the English response. Disasters such as the Battle of Maldon in 991CE, a major defeat that left Essex to the viking raiders, celebrated by a the old Anglo-Saxon  poem and Tolkien's work The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son. Or Ethelred's disastrous policy of paying Danegeld.

There was Rollo's (or Hrólfr) deprivations in Normandy in the 870s against the Frankish kings and a good blueprint for seizing land.

Look at the legendary Saga of the Jomsvikings for heroic raiding. Read the wikipedia entries rather than trying to source the sagas (I think they're out of print these days).

As far as going back to places to raid, Paris was attacked, looted & besieged once in 845CE and three times in the 860s CE, supposedly by Ragnar Loðbrók. Monasteries were often targets because of their remote locations and potential wealth. 

In the east there are not many written records of raids (not many disgusted-from-Maldon monk chroniclers) but some evidence of the Rus inhabitation in the major rivers of Russia and travel to Constantinople, the Varangian Guard etc. There are also opportunities to come into contact with steppe nomads which might be a challenge for shield walls and beserkergangs.

I wouldn't fret too much about how many temples there are.. what I would do is use the opportunity of the fact that the PCs are in a boat and as such subject to the vagaries of the GM's plot devices. They want to go raiding a coastal settlement.. you want them to get hit by a storm and end up in Thule. They are returning with lots of loot to sell and rubbing their hands in glee..  and you want them to be attacked by two viking ships. They are looking for an easy coastal settlement to raid and the local Duke has a well-prepared trap that almost destroys the raiders. They are thinking of trading down the rivers of a large inland land mass.. you want them to get caught up in the local politics. They want to trade their loot.. you want them to meet a sea monster. They think they're going on a raid for the summer and be back for harvest... you want them stranded in a hostile territory and damage their boat. 

Just like in real life ... attendance at church, even for pillaging, becomes somewhat boring and is over-rated. Once you've killed a couple of Abbots and carved the 'blood-eagle' on their chest, its hard to remember which abbot was which.

Actually, it's probably not a bad idea to martyr some religious types as long as you leave a description of what you did and someone alive who can attest to the holiness of the martyr. Following the usual tradition, the martyr is made into a saint, pilgrims then come and leave gifts. leave it for a couple of years and go back and clean up. Have enough viking-made-martyrs on the coast and you have self-generating wealth of supply-demand-taxation

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1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I just used Math to answer my own question!

They had like 5 million people in England in the old days? With lots of places with less than 500 people... that's a lot of places!

However lot of places have no wealth beyond, I guess food (which is good)

Yeah food is good. Back in those days 90% of the people were farmers. That was because they needed that many farmers to fed everybody. ANd they still ad famine about one in three years. So during a bad year you can go hungry, or you can go raid somebody else for food and make it their problem. 

 

1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

and perhaps capture the people to sell?

Sell or keep. A slave (or thrall to the Norse) is useful since they can work for you and don't need any pay other than food and shelter. 

But remember anything valuable can be tough to sell because  the buyer has to bring something of fair value with them to exchange, which can be difficult to transport, and that makes both of you good targets for another group of raiders. And while you are off a-Viking, who is at home to defend your stuff? 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Thanks all, very good feedback! 🙂

Another idea struct me...

I have 2 directions to go with.. either very large forces (a few thousands, many tens of boats) grouped all together and attack large town... (probably later)..
Or just 1 or 2 boat together (50~100 men) against...
I was thinking 500 people per village.

And suddenly it occurred to me, victory is not a given! Raid, as in hit and run is the order of the day!
Just a brain wave I had.

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Lloyd.. look at the historical records.. large, raiding, ship-borne armies were the preserve of Kings, Kings sons or powerful Jarls.. they were difficult to hold together and difficult to control, even if you were a King. Even the Great Army split up into smaller raiding groups. They are generally exceptional and definitely not the norm. Many Viking age Kings, Jarls etc were only tolerated if they did what was expected of them. The Scandinavians were very individualistic, Iceland's population was vastly increased following the victory of Harald Fairhair to become the first Norwegian King. People left rather than submit to Harald's authority. 

Smaller raids are more common and likely and probably easier to game unless the players take on the rolls of the Kings, Jarls etc.

Generally, longboats held 30 men. They were cramped and uncomfortable and crossing the North Sea was perilous. If there were more men on board the ship could have easily foundered. The ships were narrow, cramped, open to the elements, smelt awful from tar and fat used to waterproof the wooden sails. Not a place to spend a long time on board. There are sagas that mention larger numbers on board ships but they were often short trips or naval battles such as Hafrsfjord or Svolder. 

12 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I was thinking 500 people per village.

Not all of these are adults.. less than 50%.. and of that 50%, few are trained in arms or fighting.. most would have sedentary occupations of farming, fishing, foresters etc. Life for most villagers was about day-to-day survival. 

12 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

And suddenly it occurred to me, victory is not a given! Raid, as in hit and run is the order of the day!

There are lots of evidence the Vikings ran away when faced by overwhelming forces or were defeated in battles .. just look at the raids on Muslim held Spain or the Mediterranean and some of the Russian-Byzantine encounters. Fast moving, hit and run tactics seemed to be common. Vast armies sailing up the Seine to besiege, attack and sack Paris were unusual. 

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Posted (edited)

Little digression, if I may... but it is also a reaction to what you said.

I am inspired by Master of Magic as well (the 1989 video game), and it has a spell "floating island". So in this case the PC will come on a floating island, not boat 🙂 

Anyway, the rest of it applies 🙂 

Another comment I have, just agreeing some more really - but with extra argument inside! They are just raider, not even protecting their own country here - though I intend their raid leader to start a new village here, being the 3rd son he wants a land of his own. Anyway, they are not here to die. So smash and grab is not just reasonable, it is the order of the day!

Edited by Lloyd Dupont
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On 8/15/2024 at 10:10 AM, Lloyd Dupont said:

Now I wonder how many temples can they realistically raid? How often? How would they get a map or find places? Who would they be trading with (apparently the real Viking were plundering a foreign country and trading back at home from a cursory search, but I was wondering about local trade)

What kind of temples do you think they would raid? Other than Christian monasteries and trading places, there were rather few other major holy places available to plunder, unless you posit inter-Viking raids on Trondheim, Uppsala or similar major temples to the Aesir. The Svantevits temple at Arkona on Rügen would be the most important Slavic temple in the coastal lands of the Baltic Sea. I haven't seen any mention of similar sites among the Balts or in Finnland, but one might posit a few.

Although the term Viking doesn't necessarily describe naval raiders speaking a dialect of Old Norse. in the late 12th and early 13th century, Slavic VIkings harrassed the islands and coasts of Denmark, Skane, and probably beyond, effectively depopulating coastal settlements for half a century or longer. Slavic raiders were responsible for the relocation of Hedeby to Schleswig in 1066 already (16 years after Harald Hardrada of Norway had burnt the place down, and during his absence on his final (and fatal) campaign in Britain for the inheritance of Hardacnut).

On 8/15/2024 at 10:10 AM, Lloyd Dupont said:

a "viking like" campaign (not actually on earth, with magic).

How divergent do you go with that?

My first long-term RQ3 campaign took place in a setting that loaned from RQ3 Vikings but played out mostly along the shores of an inland sea half-dissecting a major landmass from the norh, with another such inland sea dissecting it from the south, save for a mountainous land bridge in between. The setting did not have any monotheistic religions, but there was something like a pantheistic renewal movement that syncretized a number of previously unrelated pantheons, to a rather similar if less centralistic effect, although against strong resistance of the empire controlling the land bridge. The Varangians were a target for that syncreticism, but not yet converted.

Holy places would be found along the rivers flowing into that inland sea, and in the coastal portions of the (resurging) empire on the land bridge.

Some of the best raids in that campaign were on ruined temples of the land-bridge empire in rovinces that it had lost to the conquests following the syncretic religion. Magical rituals to re-awaken the non-syncretic state religion would plunge the players into past mythical acts that had played out there.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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On 8/15/2024 at 5:54 AM, Jason D said:

You might want to check out the old RQ Vikings supplement

Seconded, this was my first experience with RQ. I died twice in the first session and the gm ripped up my character sheet. Good times.

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Posted (edited)

Hi yall..

My plan so far... (skipping part 1 in their own home country) First I realize there might be lots of villages, with like 500~700 people. Meanwhile PC in a ~40 people raiding group, so smash and grab is the order. Furthermore they don't know the land and all the juicy spots. What triggered that raid is that a jarl's son was doing some trade and learn of this country internal conflicts and thought to come and capitalize on undefended (or less defended towns). Their raid is lead by a friend of him. They are coming on their magical floating island (Master of Magic summon - my magic system being a derivative of MoM, I do wonder how it moves though... I guess it just does)....

So the plan is (for the first raid) to raid and grab villages along the river. Take as much as possible from the houses, capture older kids and run. Last stop might be an - hopefully less well defended - castle attack (maybe scale the whole thing at night?). Anyway people will see them coming... so they might have to go though the forest at night, although all the villager will be concentrated in the village, unsure. 
Some village might have a priest (level 1 or 2 - there are 4 level in each magic branch) and a few paladins. So there might encounter a few hitches, and priest and paladin might escape (I might have one with a teleporting unicorn, so definitely a recurring enemy). Some village might be protected by local druid or fey patrons (level 1~2 nature mage) There might be a castle in each village (with minimal force, lords being at war elsewhere), so maybe strike there first? If discreet enough... All about maybe a month of raiding. Basic loot.

Ideally I like the Jarl to settle here, raid some mana node.. etc... but 1. the raider expect to go home and they don't know the land.... but I am thinking, since they take thralls.. they might learn from them. And also see the bountifull land (nature and life magic at work in this land!!) and I was thinking to stop at basic easy raid first time (might only take a few weeks to follow the river).

A second raid the following year (with training in between to spend new found wealth), with more floating islands and more men. The idea is to take over a castle they spotted previously.

And explore the land around. Now they might discover some of the magical places. I was thinking a few nature manode - with nature monsters - a few ancient tower of magic - teeming up with summon and a few relics and maybe a portal to another world - i.e. MoM style, and maybe also a Vampire lord.

Meanwhile local king will send some troup to assault them, and some might be send on diplomatic mission to neightbourghood kingdom for a temporary alliance of sort.

That's the plan so far...
I have to update some of my MoM rule set - got some new ideas!.. Anyway, my campaign notes are this telegraphic, since I like to improvise... but I need to create a few recuring NPC - like enemy priest/paladin/druid, a few village plans, and I have some update ideas to the summoning system and need a MoM bestiary...

Edited by Lloyd Dupont
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I always like recurring adversaries.. they often drive campaigns and if you manage to annoy the Players properly on the first and second encounter, then considerable time and effort is spent tracking the adversary down to thwart or destroy their machinations 

Having morally dubious adversaries is also good. Are they good or evil? Sometimes both. Besides since most players can hardly be described as goodies .. why shouldn't their adversaries not be similar?

Anyways, tell us how it goes Lloyd.. we want to hear

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Yes, recurring NPC are the soul of the game. So I need to pay special attention to that I reckon! 🙂
(trying to improve my GMing skills)

Also I want to look at Mythras character sheet and skills and make sure I got various event to use most skills! 😄

Thanks for warm feedback.. currently another player is GMing... but will try to convince to let me have the spot, particularly as I got some other friend that could join that way haha 🙂

 

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Posted (edited)

Spoiler warning... a bit hazy on various possible endings.. but one might be an otherworldy invasion against draconian + dark elves army and the local viking and lords teeming up and maybe some love story to cement the peace hey?! or maybe... love and jealousy story! :O 

Also there will be more or less Bandits band the years later. Because after being stolen all food, villagers turned to pillaging themselves! ^_^ 

Edited by Lloyd Dupont
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