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Has anyone Stated - Olympians?


rogerd

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As in Zeus and company? I don't think I've seen them. It could be fun.

As in all things, I think it depends on what you want to do with them.

It did say in Invictus that they can summon Shoggoths and other such nasties. No reason to actually stick to CoC either, maybe use BRP for some other stuff. Certainly would need the Demi-god template from BGB that's for sure.

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In the Iliad, it describes the Olympians getting down and dirty on the battlefield. Basically, mortals have no chance, but Immortals can defeat even the gods. Other gods certainly can - it is full of descriptions of how Ares is defeated by Athena, for example.

As to having stats for them, unless you want to go up against a God, what is the point? Even goddesses such as Artemis and Athena could take out 20 men without thinking about it. Ares could take a hundred without breaking into a sweat.

Stormbringer had the right idea - its gods always gave mortals the first blow, then said they killed you.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

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In the Iliad, it describes the Olympians getting down and dirty on the battlefield. Basically, mortals have no chance, but Immortals can defeat even the gods. Other gods certainly can - it is full of descriptions of how Ares is defeated by Athena, for example.

As to having stats for them, unless you want to go up against a God, what is the point? Even goddesses such as Artemis and Athena could take out 20 men without thinking about it. Ares could take a hundred without breaking into a sweat.

Stormbringer had the right idea - its gods always gave mortals the first blow, then said they killed you.

However in BRP & CoC, RQ or even RQII they aren't that powerful.

It is in Elric that Lords of Choas / Order that they are more powerful, but you wouldn't stat them as there is a difference in power level, by an order of magnitude to the extent that they dwarf the Great Old Ones in power, at least in my opinion.

Invictus has stats for Tuatha (Sidhe)

Viking Dark Age (?) has stats for Diana and Odin.

Deus Vault has stats for Tiews, but it is more of a spirit that manifests as a man with one had missing.

Now to reconcile the difference between Illiad and fact, Chinese (or is that Greek) whispers over a thousand generations you get something that doesn't even represent the truth.

Edited by rogerd
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Remember the old dictum that if you stat it, the players will figure out a way to kill it. I can't see characters going toe-to-toe with a Greek god and coming out ahead. Heroes might be able to bargain with and/or bribe them (the Olympians are notoriously capricious and amoral, after all) and maybe outsmart them (think of Reed Richards tricking Galactus). Just remember, it's not nice to fool Mother Nature. Gods tend to react badly when they realize they've been had.

On the other hand, Robert Howard's The Cairn on the Headland had an American archeologist confronting the avatar of Odin with the help of a holy relic. Let's just say his depiction of the All-Father wasn't as, ahem, noble as that of Marvel Comics' Thor.

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Remember the old dictum that if you stat it, the players will figure out a way to kill it. I can't see characters going toe-to-toe with a Greek god and coming out ahead.

Not quite true. They could if they had their own divine aid, as is portrayed most famously in the Iliad. Diomedes, aided by Athena, attacks and wounds two immortals, Aphrodite and Ares.

"But man-killing Ares did see Diomedes.

He let the body of huge Periphas lie there,

where he’d first killed him and ripped out his spirit.

He strode straight up to horse-taming Diomedes.

When the two came to close quarters and faced each other,

Ares thrust his bronze spear first, over the yoke

and horses’ reins, eager to take Diomedes’ life.

Athena, bright-eyed goddess, hands gripping the reins,

shoved the spear aside, so its thrust was harmless,

above the chariot. Diomedes, skilled in war cries,

then made the second thrust with his bronze spear.

Pallas Athena guided the weapon right to Ares’ gut,

the lower part where his waist band went around him.

Diomedes wounded Ares, piercing his fair skin,

then pulled back on his spear. Brazen Ares roared

as loud as the screams of nine or ten thousand men

when they clash in war. Fear seized Achaeans—Trojans, too.

They shuddered. That’s how strong that cry sounded

as it came from Ares, insatiable for war."

But there are other examples too...

'Dione, queen among goddesses, then replied:

"Be brave, my child, hold on, though you're in pain.

Many of us who live on Mount Olympus

have been hurt by men in our attempts

to bring harsh troubles on each other.

Ares suffered when powerful Otus

and Ephialtes, children of Aloëus,

tied him up in powerful manacles,

then kept him prisoner in a brass jar

for thirteen months. Ares would've died there,

with all his war-lust, if their step-mother,

fair Eëriboea, had not told Hermes.

He stole Ares secretly. Ares was exhausted.

That harsh imprisonment was breaking him.

And Hera suffered, too, when Hercules,

the mighty son of Amphitryon,

hit her right breast with a three-barbed arrow.

She was wracked by pain beyond all cure.

With them huge Hades also suffered

from a sharp arrow, when this same man,

this Hercules, a son of aegis-bearing Zeus,

shot him in Pylos, among the corpses there,

inflicting pain. Hades went straight to Zeus

at home on Olympus—his heart enraged,

in agony, the arrow buried deep

in his strong shoulder. He was incensed.

Paeëon healed him with pain-killing herbs

smeared on the wound, for Hades was immortal.

What a wretch he was, that Hercules,

a trouble maker. He didn't hesitate

to commit bad acts with that bow of his

against the gods who dwell on Mount Olympus.

But Athena, the bright-eyed goddess,

prompted Tydeus' son to go at you.

Still, he's a fool for not remembering

that the man who fights against immortals

does not live long."

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However in BRP & CoC, RQ or even RQII they aren't that powerful.

Hmmm, demigods have stats in BRP; CoC doesn't really count to me as the Chthulhu Mythos is either beings so immense and powerful that they can't be touched, or monsters that can be killed; RQ generally doesn't stat up deities, only minor demigods.

It is in Elric that Lords of Choas / Order that they are more powerful, but you wouldn't stat them as there is a difference in power level, by an order of magnitude to the extent that they dwarf the Great Old Ones in power, at least in my opinion.

It is interesting that Corum actually killed the gods, so Moorcock's gods aren't always super-powerful.

Invictus has stats for Tuatha (Sidhe)

Viking Dark Age (?) has stats for Diana and Odin.

Deus Vault has stats for Tiews, but it is more of a spirit that manifests as a man with one had missing.

The Sidhe are merely pale shadows of what the gods were, and that is part of their function - they have always been written in folklore as shades.

Tiews is a god that had not been actively worshipped for a few centuries at the time of Deus Vult, so again I would have expected him to be less powerful.

I haven't seen the stats for Diana and Odin, it would be interesting to see them. Do you have any idea of which supplements had them?

Now to reconcile the difference between Illiad and fact, Chinese (or is that Greek) whispers over a thousand generations you get something that doesn't even represent the truth.

Well, the Trojan War might have been in the 12th Century BC, and the Iliad was probably written down in the 8th century BC, so about 400 years separated the two, so about 13 generations. Time enough for things to be twisted, of course.

Looking at the Greek Myths, the Olympians are rarely defeated by humans, Their contemporaries (Titans/Demigods) are sometimes defeated by mortals, but those mortals are often descended by deities. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any who were fully mortal.

So, if they were statted up then they would be very powerful - high POW, divine magic cast in the same way as Common Magic (perhaps at a cost of 1 MP per casting), high STR/CON, resistance to damage and so on.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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I suspect that the Greek mythology makes it impossible to really kill a

deity, no matter what the deity's stats are like. In the worst case a

deity would be "killed" temporarily by being sent to the Hades, but it

would be no problem for Zeus as the ruler of the deities to tell Pluto

to send the deity back to the Olymp - and whoever "killed" the deity

would then have to face a very angry god or goddess.

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

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Hmmm, demigods have stats in BRP; CoC doesn't really count to me as the Chthulhu Mythos is either beings so immense and powerful that they can't be touched, or monsters that can be killed; RQ generally doesn't stat up deities, only minor demigods.

You're missing the whole point of the Cthulhu Mythos and what Lovecraft wrote - that the gods of Earth are tiny and insignificant biengs to Mythos entities, it is why Yog-Sothoth scoffed at them in the Silver Key as wanting things contrary to nature. If you want a good media example think Xena or better yet Baron Munchausen. None of the so-called gods were all that powerful.

It is interesting that Corum actually killed the gods, so Moorcock's gods aren't always super-powerful.

With relics of power so old that even the Lords of Chaos and Order couldn't duplicate them IIRC.....if so that says something about who, or what made them.

The Sidhe are merely pale shadows of what the gods were, and that is part of their function - they have always been written in folklore as shades.

Yes nicey romantic folklore is just tripe though. Mythologically speaking if you want to be particularly correct the Fea (Fey) would actually be more correctly interpretated as Yaksha's from Hindu mythology, and Kami from Japanese or plain Daimons from Greek mythology - in other words benevolent nature spirits. Now there are darker versions which in Hindu mythology were somewhat more unpleasant.

Here is some info for you:

- Excerpt

The Sidhe

Originally created for the Halloween Horrors II scenario “A Ring of Toadstools,” the Tuatha de Danann is reprinted here. They can easily be encountered in the Cthulhu Invictus setting. The power and disposition of each Sidhe varies greatly, with some being noble and kindhearted while others are wicked and spiteful. A few have powers that rival lesser Outer Gods and Great Old Ones, and at least one has managed to elevate herself to that status.

Tuatha de Danann, Fey Folk From the

Land of Eternal Youth.

Char. Rolls Averages

STR 3d6 11- 13

CON 3d6+3 12 - 14

SIZ 2d6+3 9 - 12

INT 3d6+3 12 - 14

POW 4d6 14 - 16

DEX 3d6+3 12 - 14

APP 4d6+3

Move 9 HP 30-31

Av. Damage Bonus: None

Weapons: Various finely crafted weapons, such as swords, bows and spears (sword, damage 1D8+db; bow, damage 1D8; spear, damage 1D6+db or 1D6 thrown) 51%-70%.

Armor: None.

Spells: 2-4 spells, 10% of Sidhe know 4-10 spells. Innate magical ability called Weaving (see above).

Sanity Loss: 0/1D2 Sanity points to see a Tuatha de Danann

Tiews is a god that had not been actively worshipped for a few centuries at the time of Deus Vult, so again I would have expected him to be less powerful.

He's a spirit and not actually corporeal.

I haven't seen the stats for Diana and Odin, it would be interesting to see them. Do you have any idea of which supplements had them?

Now in The Viking Age book the actual source for either left at discretion of the GM - whether to make them pathetic god of Earth, or an avatar of some mytho entity.

The Viking Age - page 42] - Excerpt

The deity Odin is a sinister and paradoxical entity. Surviving Norse material attests to Odin’s negative as well as positive aspects, and with only a little exaggeration the Keeper can turn him into a truly horrific figure. Odin was a traditional god of nobility from Norway and Sweden. Many elements of Odin’s mythology suggest a shamanistic element. His sacrifice of himself to himself on the tree Yggdrasil for magical knowledge may be seen as a form of initiation. His connection to seithr (often Cthulhu Dark Ages: Spirits and Dreams 43 seen as a women’s art) may reflect ritual gender transgression. Odin’s role as god of war is closely related to his role as a god of the dead. He collects dead warriors to fight beside him at Ragnarok. Odin can also be seen as a trickster god; his contests with mortal and immortal rivals usually end in their destruction. In later portrayals from the conversion era, he is depicted with as a demonic being who tries to prevent his worshipers from converting to Christianity.

ODIN, God of the Otherworlds

STR 17 CON 15 SIZ 15 INT 20 POW 45

DEX 14 Move 8 HP 15

Bonus Damage: +1D4

Weapons: Spear 75%, damage 1D6 + db

Armor: invulnerable to conventional attacks

Spells: any

Sanity Loss: 0 normally. 1D10/1D100 to see his true form.

Well, the Trojan War might have been in the 12th Century BC, and the Iliad was probably written down in the 8th century BC, so about 400 years separated the two, so about 13 generations. Time enough for things to be twisted, of course.

Looking at the Greek Myths, the Olympians are rarely defeated by humans, Their contemporaries (Titans/Demigods) are sometimes defeated by mortals, but those mortals are often descended by deities. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any who were fully mortal.

So, if they were statted up then they would be very powerful - high POW, divine magic cast in the same way as Common Magic (perhaps at a cost of 1 MP per casting), high STR/CON, resistance to damage and so on.

Around Elder god leve most likely, which considering the ones listed in Lovecraft actually came from mythology, e.g. Hypnos, Bast, Nodens. There is no reason to then draw parallel between the Protogenoi of Greek mythology and some of the more powerul Hindu deities and place them at lesser Outer God level - as the latter were likely behind some of HPL's sources anyway.

- page 88

In addition to invulnerability and exceptionally long life, the Olympians gained the power of flight, the ability to create unnatural, hybrid creatures, and the knowledge necessary to summon dimensional shamblers, shuggoths, the Hounds of Tindalos, and other mythos monsters.

So to stat them I'd use a basic Olympians template from Doctor Who, something akin to the Greek gods from Olympos dualogy by Simmons, or Bifrost Guardians - all of whom were powerful, but too powerful not to have smack down. I'm also liable to incorporate some from Lovecraft's story about the Greek gods returning to Earth too.

If you want a good example, think Eden Studios idea of Angels that thought they were all high and mighty until they encountered a squadron of M-16's and got a lesson in how far humanity has grown. Without modern weapons or some form of powers (super, magic, psychic) against most lesser races in the mythos you're going to get ganked. Now there is no reason that a tale cannot show the contrast (if you retcon the Olympians dying) as they suddenly experience the difference between ages past, and modern times where despite Zeus' ability to hurl thunderbolts here is quite outclosed if someone chucks a MOAB or heavier artillery in his direction.

Edited by rogerd
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Or look at it all slightly differently. Anyone read Neil Gaiman's American Gods? Its been a while since I read it but the basic premise goes that the more worshippers a god has the more powerful they are.

So if you want to stat up a god, first you figure out the number of worshippers . Those gods with massive amounts of worshippers get all the truly god like abilities, chucking lightning around, coming back from the dead etc and have stats based on the number or worshipers. The stats of those gods with only a few worshippers look more human on a character sheet. Maybe they only have Epic stats in a game where the players have Heroic level stats. And if a god only has one worshiper then it has the same level of stats as the worshiper.

Mr Jealousy has returned to reality!

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On the other hand, Robert Howard's The Cairn on the Headland had an American archeologist confronting the avatar of Odin with the help of a holy relic. Let's just say his depiction of the All-Father wasn't as, ahem, noble as that of Marvel Comics' Thor.

I've got to be honest I don't remember Odin being particularly nice in myths, and it is only Marvel's poor depiction (at least as IIRC) of him that makes me cringe.

Not quite true. They could if they had their own divine aid, as is portrayed most famously in the Iliad. Diomedes, aided by Athena, attacks and wounds two immortals, Aphrodite and Ares.

Gods were also injured in the Olmypos dualogy.

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Not quite true. They could if they had their own divine aid, as is portrayed most famously in the Iliad. Diomedes, aided by Athena, attacks and wounds two immortals, Aphrodite and Ares.

Thanks for the quotes - Rereading the Illiad after I started roleplaying, I was struck by how much it sounded like RuneQuest. The descriptions of the combat involving the gods could have been a game writeup.

Now, if only somebody could do a Heroic Age Greek RuneQuest supplement ...

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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Actually, thinking about it, I've been coming from a RuneQuest/BRP approach.

A CoC approach might be different, because of the different approach to gods.

As in the Creatures Stats thread, it really does depend on the setting and system that is used.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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Actually, thinking about it, I've been coming from a RuneQuest/BRP approach.

A CoC approach might be different, because of the different approach to gods.

As in the Creatures Stats thread, it really does depend on the setting and system that is used.

I think the CoC ppraoch would be the right one and keeps them not too powerful. Do you have a linky to the creature thread?

Incidentally a minor RQ god is stated in Legendary Heroes - page 87; Xeticoto the Blood God

I'd be tempted to do something like this.

Odin One Eye

All Father 180%, Wisdom of Mimir and Yggdrasil 115%, Command Huginn and Muninn 145%

Something like that.

I agree, none of their stats would need to be particuarly impressive, but they would likely possess a fair few spells, and any from RQ / Glorantha that would be listed as divine, just move across to sorcery and take your pick.

Now for the Aesir I'd keep the Odin stats above but add a slight bit of extra background, and maybe even alter the Otherworld by removing the dreamers and have it solely as another dimensions accessible from the dreamlands. That way it could be a group of mortals that found the so-called Garden of Eden, wherein resided a fruit that could render the eater immortal. In many ways trying to parallel that maybe the Aesir started off as humans, same as the Olympians.

EDIT: Has anyone noticed how all of the gods of Earth in recent supplements have become Elder gods? Emma-O, Jade Emperor etc.

Edited by rogerd
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... the basic premise goes that the more worshippers a god has the more powerful they are. So if you want to stat up a god, first you figure out the number of worshippers . Those gods with massive amounts of worshippers get all the truly god like abilities, chucking lightning around, coming back from the dead etc and have stats based on the number or worshipers. The stats of those gods with only a few worshippers look more human on a character sheet
I agree, that whatever their other attributes are, all Gods would have to have ridiculously high POW attributes. This is in keeping with the concept that worshipers sacrifice POW to their deities in some way (blood, animals, labour, penance, prayer, etc), so the deities would have huge POW attributes as a result. This would undoubtedly impact upon their egos and confidence, which would be in keeping with the glory of the Olympians.

" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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So ... Elvis, or the latest Tiger Beat heartthrob, or President Obama at the start of his term in office, as a divinity? Stats and powers please! ;D How many worshipers does someone have to have to become a theological entity? Odin hasn't had many adherents for the last thousand years, and for Zeus it has been several thousand. So what happens when they run smack into modern "gods"?

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I agree, none of their stats would need to be particuarly impressive, but they would likely possess a fair few spells, and any from RQ / Glorantha that would be listed as divine, just move across to sorcery and take your pick.

More than being impressive though is what you stat I, I would think. If you don't give the god hit points, for example, you limit the ability of the PC to kill them (because the PC is going to kill them). I don't think you need to give gods spells either. Give them god skills. Doesn't Cthulhu have an attack skill that is 'kills 1d4 investigators per round' or something? You can even bring the skills down in to 'normal' level.

Odin

All Father 85%, Wisdom of Mimir and Yggdrasil 46%, Command Huginn and Muninn 57%

Odin wants to so something Odin-like (sorry, not very familiar with Olympians here). He rolls All Father for results. No expenditure of mp, no fuss. He's Odin, he's a god.

70/420

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...Odin hasn't had many adherents for the last thousand years, and for Zeus it has been several thousand. So what happens when they run smack into modern "gods"?

Odin and Zeus are still around and more successful than ever since they built their regionally based divine subscription services into a multinational enterprise. Through the process of horizontal integration with other divine vendors they have revolutionized the standard POW economy of the ancient era. Gone are the days of complex service agreements, hidden sacrificial charges and internecine holy war. Now consumers world-wide can enjoy the benefits of cult membership through one centrally managed brand, YHWH Corp.

It's gotta be YHWH!

Edited by hanszurcher

I don`t play monsters. I play men besieged by fate and out for revenge. ~Vincent Price

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More than being impressive though is what you stat I, I would think.

Not in CoC, not really unless it is actually some kind of Mythos monster.

If you don't give the god hit points, for example, you limit the ability of the PC to kill them (because the PC is going to kill them).

They MUST have HP, same as any other god in CoC. They just won't have a lot.

I don't think you need to give gods spells either.

They would have generic spells around their purview, e.g for Zeus. Most would have some kind of shape-shifting ability, and a spell to force the same on others.

Give them god skills. Doesn't Cthulhu have an attack skill that is 'kills 1d4 investigators per round' or something? You can even bring the skills down in to 'normal' level.

Some probably will be, I doubt there is a lot of need for some of the more atiquated skill-sets they possess.

Odin

All Father 85%, Wisdom of Mimir and Yggdrasil 46%, Command Huginn and Muninn 57%

Odin wants to so something Odin-like (sorry, not very familiar with Olympians here). He rolls All Father for results. No expenditure of mp, no fuss.

Some kind of gods skills would suffice.

He's Odin, he's a god.

To hold true to Lovecraft's vision they would have to be feeble, petty things - as per Through the Gates of the Silver Key. Now due to the Invictus book Olympians would probably rate as minor Elder gods, at best.

The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the Being had heard. And now there poured from that limitless Mind a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shown the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little Earth gods, with their petty, human interests and connections - their hatreds, rages, loves and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faiths contrary to reason and nature.

So oif it comes to power, they should not be that high.

Edited by rogerd
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