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RQM is close enough to the other RQs to count as a valid version.

I'd debate that. In fact I have already. The problem is it is hard to come up with criteria to test for "valid RQ"-ness. Any test that puts RQ, RQ3 and MRQ in the same categories would end up catching RPGs that are not RQ. In fact, there are some non-chasoium RPGS that meet criteria that MRQ fails to pass. One example is Pendragon. Is isn't RQ, but is as close to RQ3 as MRQ-especially with the new way MRQ handles opposed rolls. And Pendragon has experience checks.

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Only if Greg Stafford gave permission first. Glorantha is a protected Intellectual Property. If you did a 'rewrite' to fit BRP specifically without acquiring a licence or the appropriate permission, they'd be opening themselves to litigation.

Or even if the ersatz-Glorantha was 'system agnostic', presumably. But I was hoping more to elicit opinions as to what essential elements (without infringing IP) would be needed for a Glorantha 'tribute' world (or even a take-off, 'Bored of the Rings' style...). But it's difficult, just like identifying the "RQ-ishness" of RQ2/3 which holds them apart from, and superior to, MRQ.

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So do you think Greg Stafford will license out First Age Glorantha to Chaosium to use with BRP? Or better still use first age for Heroquest and licence out 3rd age to be used with BRP. That really would be back to the good old days!

Think there is any likelihood?

I would like, but I doubt. I think I will have to build my RQ IV, starting with BRP.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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Yeah, I think there is some bad blood between Greg and what is left of Chaosium. It was originally Greg's company, and in the mid 90s, Chaosium did split off into three different companies, with Issaries being the Glorantha company.

While Chaosium could probably broker a deal. I don't think they want to. I think if they were interested in publishing more Glorantha they would have produced HeroQuest.

I really doubt you'll see Greg and Chaosium working together on something again. Otherwise I doubt there evern would have been an MRQ.

According to GS, Chaosium split in 4 (Chaosium itself with CoC, Mythos and SB, Issaries with Glorantha, another company I don't remember the name with Pendragon and Wizard's Attic to handle distribution).

And also according to GS, he MAY have an interest in working with Chaosium: when asked who owns Chaosium, the answer was 33% himself, 33% Lynn Willis, 33% Charlie Krank and 1% Sandy Petersen. But, considering GS view on RQ (already cited by Nick) and the existence of the Mongoose license (that most probably includes an exclusivity clause), I really doubt it could occur.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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RQM is close enough to the other RQs to count as a valid version.

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I disagree on that, but let's NOT start a new flamewar on this.

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Sure, it's not brilliant and has flaws and I wouldn't use it as my main system, but it has some good ideas and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

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On, this, I agree.

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From my point of view, BRP is just another version of RQ. It has a lot of rules I don't like and a lot of things I won't use, just like RQM. Is one better than the other? Maybe, maybe not.

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Agreed, even if I'm sure than one will be better than the other is. :D

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The playtest was interesting but the game seemed to be moving further away from RQ, a bit too far for my tastes.

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Same for me.

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It certainly seems more coherent than RQM, but even after playtesting and checking it still needs extensive alterations. That's why I won't be buying the Zero Edition, that and I bought 3 Mongoose RQ books that are now combined into one, so I'll be damned if I buy a Zero Edition and then have to buy a full version of BRP.

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Same opinion for me, except that I am not buying edition 0 for economical reasons.

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I'll wait, I'll buy it and I'll use bits of it. It won't be my prime system, any more than RQM will be, but I'll get some of the supplements and I'll use them in my games.

Idem.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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RQM is close enough to the other RQs to count as a valid version.

Sure, it's not brilliant and has flaws and I wouldn't use it as my main system, but it has some good ideas and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

From my point of view, BRP is just another version of RQ. It has a lot of rules I don't like and a lot of things I won't use, just like RQM. Is one better than the other? Maybe, maybe not. The playtest was interesting but the game seemed to be moving further away from RQ, a bit too far for my tastes.

It certainly seems more coherent than RQM, but even after playtesting and checking it still needs extensive alterations. That's why I won't be buying the Zero Edition, that and I bought 3 Mongoose RQ books that are now combined into one, so I'll be damned if I buy a Zero Edition and then have to buy a full version of BRP.

I'll wait, I'll buy it and I'll use bits of it. It won't be my prime system, any more than RQM will be, but I'll get some of the supplements and I'll use them in my games.

Soltakss- Would you care to elaborate on the parts of your post that I bolded? I would be interested in hearing more about what people found dissatisfactory in the current incarnation. You may want to open a new thread or just email me off list if you are more comfortable doing that.

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Soltakss- Would you care to elaborate on the parts of your post that I bolded? I would be interested in hearing more about what people found dissatisfactory in the current incarnation. You may want to open a new thread or just email me off list if you are more comfortable doing that.

Yes PLEASE not in a thread titled "Glorantha"! Start a new thread and call it "Comparative systemology" or something. Pretty please with a cherry on top?

:focus:

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Yes PLEASE not in a thread titled "Glorantha"! Start a new thread and call it "Comparative systemology" or something. Pretty please with a cherry on top?

:focus:

As it seems it will become quite hot, yes, please do!

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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Yes PLEASE not in a thread titled "Glorantha"! Start a new thread and call it "Comparative systemology" or something. Pretty please with a cherry on top?

:focus:

"Comparative systemology" Brilliant. That's the kind of course I would have loved to study at University.

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Hi,

So Greg was willing to admit that MRQ was to a substantial extent a copyright dodge? He lawyer really should talk to him ...

In any event, Mongoose Rune Quest seems to be a substantially different game from RQ II or RQ III. I suspect that the authors of Mongoose RQ were more ambitious than just wanting to produce the same old RQ in different words.

I don't see Greg licensing Glorantha back to Chaosium. First of all, he is right to claim that BRP {and for that matter RQ} are not particularly good systems for running Greg's vision of Glorantha, to the extent that he has a clear vision of Glorantha. Anyone, now, can look at Jar-Eel, Harrek, etc, and see that a superhero type game is necessary to model Glorantha. This was not so obvious before the first superhero RQ has Strike Ranks and very detailed combat, intended to help SCA'ers and people with similar experience visualize combat. This was, and is, of no interest to Greg. All three RQ magic systems are derived from different interpretations of D&D magic, not from some real world "magical system {Crowley, etc}". The worst is, oddly enough Shamanism, which is actually Greg's key area of interest but which none of the RQ authors cared much about at the time we wrote RQ I.

Don't get me wrong, RQ was a good thing in its time, but a good simulation of Greg's view of Glorantha it was not.

The other issue is that Greg has a small group of people, intensely interested in Glorantha, who tend to look up to him and tell him he is right. In my view, he tends to believe them a little too much. This makes him very difficult to work with. It also makes it hard for him to recognize what those of us who just want a good gaming setting need. But that's my view, and it should be taken with a grain of salt. So my guess is that the Chaosium people are unlikely to do this because they don't want to deal with the problems of working with Greg.

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I don't see Greg licensing Glorantha back to Chaosium.

So, can we choose a different homeworld for BRP, and make it the 'New Glorantha'?

I'd suggest an already-established setting, if possible. I've seen Jorune praised hereabouts...

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So, can we choose a different homeworld for BRP, and make it the 'New Glorantha'?

I'd suggest an already-established setting, if possible. I've seen Jorune praised hereabouts...

I'd be inclined to shout "Questworld" if we could get enough people to want to game in the same fantasy setting. Some sort of baseline setting would be nice, as long as the rules don't limit other uses of BRP.

I think any "in house" setting needs to be "in house" at Chaosium. While there are a lot of other worlds, include Jorune, they are owned by someone else and so would be difficult to impossible for Chaosium to use.

Either a Chasoium closed setting, or an open setting that we all work on, could be nice. That's why I thought of Questworld. Back in the early days of MRQ several of us were going to put together an open game world, but the concept died after MRQ came out and half the contributors decided that they didn't want to play MRQ.

The concept, however, is still a good one.

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I don't see Greg licensing Glorantha back to Chaosium. First of all, he is right to claim that BRP {and for that matter RQ} are not particularly good systems for running Greg's vision of Glorantha, to the extent that he has a clear vision of Glorantha. Anyone, now, can look at Jar-Eel, Harrek, etc, and see that a superhero type game is necessary to model Glorantha. This was not so obvious before the first superhero RQ has Strike Ranks and very detailed combat, intended to help SCA'ers and people with similar experience visualize combat. This was, and is, of no interest to Greg. All three RQ magic systems are derived from different interpretations of D&D magic, not from some real world "magical system {Crowley, etc}". The worst is, oddly enough Shamanism, which is actually Greg's key area of interest but which none of the RQ authors cared much about at the time we wrote RQ I.

While all what you say is true, Ray, I have to note that nothing much in RQM is that much better for Glorantha, far as I can tell, yet he's licensed one period of its history to Mongoose for use in it. So his views have to be more complex than just wanting to stay away from RQ with Glorantha, or he'd have limited it to use with Hero Wars (which apparently fits his views of it better).

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While all what you say is true, Ray, I have to note that nothing much in RQM is that much better for Glorantha, far as I can tell, yet he's licensed one period of its history to Mongoose for use in it. So his views have to be more complex than just wanting to stay away from RQ with Glorantha, or he'd have limited it to use with Hero Wars (which apparently fits his views of it better).

I think the key things are that Greg has said that there are some aspect of Glorantha that he doesn't care about, and that the Second Age ends with pretty much everything being destroyed.

So:

1) Greg doesn't care about MRQ

2) Anything Mingoose comes up with will get destroyed anyway.

If Greg was writing MRQ stuff or doing up some 2nd Age HeroQuest stuff I think it would be a different matter. But the impression I got was Greg figured he could make a couple of bucks off of it, and it won't affect his gaming or Glorantha proper.

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I think the key things are that Greg has said that there are some aspect of Glorantha that he doesn't care about, and that the Second Age ends with pretty much everything being destroyed.

So:

1) Greg doesn't care about MRQ

2) Anything Mingoose comes up with will get destroyed anyway.

If Greg was writing MRQ stuff or doing up some 2nd Age HeroQuest stuff I think it would be a different matter. But the impression I got was Greg figured he could make a couple of bucks off of it, and it won't affect his gaming or Glorantha proper.

IIRC, he stated that for him, the Mongoose deal was mainly a financial one, that brought him more cash than the whole HQ line.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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IIRC, he stated that for him, the Mongoose deal was mainly a financial one, that brought him more cash than the whole HQ line.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

No surprise there. A few companies that started doing d20 stuff to supplment their regular lines have commented that one d20 book can finance a year of supplement for another system.

Mongoose is now a pretty big player in the RPG field and so can probably make a good sized offer.

THat Greg doesn't talk much about MRQ (I've read comments like "I wouldn't have done it that way, but it's their game"), while you can usally get him to talk about other games he has been involved with, like HQ or Pendragon gives a pretty clear indication. I don't think Greg is playing any MRQ.

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Having worked very closely with Greg on the 'Dara Happa Stirs' book for Mongoose, I don't get the impression that he doesn't care about what gets developed. He might not care too much for the system, but as far as the Second Age is concerned, he's put a great deal of effort into providing Mongoose's writers with the precise tools to reflect his vision, and his own writing seems to have developed the second age.

Greg's been extremely supportive about the Dragonewts book, Dara Happa, and is very keen to see what further Second Age projects are developed. So to say that his interest is purely or mainly financial is a little on the disingenuous side - both to him, and to Mongoose, which is very keen to ensure that all its Gloranthan output gets an official seal of approval.

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IIRC, he stated that for him, the Mongoose deal was mainly a financial one, that brought him more cash than the whole HQ line.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Let's be thankful for small mercies. Had Greg just been thinking of the money, he could have licenced it to D20 and to hell with it. :o

Not that happy with MRQ but it is compatible to a great extent.

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I'd be inclined to shout "Questworld" if we could get enough people to want to game in the same fantasy setting. Some sort of baseline setting would be nice, as long as the rules don't limit other uses of BRP.

That was precisely the original motivation behind Gwenthia, albeit we wandered quite some way from that original motivation fairly rapidly...

I think any "in house" setting needs to be "in house" at Chaosium. While there are a lot of other worlds, include Jorune, they are owned by someone else and so would be difficult to impossible for Chaosium to use.

The difficulty is there is no "in house" at Chaosium: they have no designers / writers on staff any more (well, Lynn Willis has written stuff in the past, but I gather these days he only does editorial work). It's possible they might consider some sort of supervision / licensed arrangement I suppose...

Either a Chasoium closed setting, or an open setting that we all work on, could be nice. That's why I thought of Questworld. Back in the early days of MRQ several of us were going to put together an open game world, but the concept died after MRQ came out and half the contributors decided that they didn't want to play MRQ.

The concept, however, is still a good one.

Indeed, and perhaps something that this community could do in it's wiki, or on a clsoed sub set of the forums?

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

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Having worked very closely with Greg on the 'Dara Happa Stirs' book for Mongoose, I don't get the impression that he doesn't care about what gets developed. He might not care too much for the system, but as far as the Second Age is concerned, he's put a great deal of effort into providing Mongoose's writers with the precise tools to reflect his vision, and his own writing seems to have developed the second age.

Greg's been extremely supportive about the Dragonewts book, Dara Happa, and is very keen to see what further Second Age projects are developed. So to say that his interest is purely or mainly financial is a little on the disingenuous side - both to him, and to Mongoose, which is very keen to ensure that all its Gloranthan output gets an official seal of approval.

Note that my comment about the 'mainly financial' deal is not derogatory. I'm working because my job pays my rent and my food, not by pleasure. I perfectly understand this motivation, even if I don't like the result.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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That was precisely the original motivation behind Gwenthia, albeit we wandered quite some way from that original motivation fairly rapidly...

What was the concept behind Questworld? Gates from which you could travel form world to world or something like that?

Indeed, and perhaps something that this community could do in it's wiki, or on a clsoed sub set of the forums?

Not a bad idea. A problem could be agreeing on the type of setting/world to create though. :cool:

SGL.

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It's a nice idea to have a new world that BRP is dedicated to. But Glorantha is a tough act to follow! I think for me it was Greg Stafford's style of writing as much as anything else that hooked me as a youth. Concise and crackiling with symbollism.

Though for me Glorantha has become too realistic. The light brush strokes have become precise incisions. It used to be like falling into an Asterix book, now it is like reading a star trek technical manual.

I agree with you trifle's tractor that mythic earth could be the closest thing to catch that flavour we like.

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Note that my comment about the 'mainly financial' deal is not derogatory. I'm working because my job pays my rent and my food, not by pleasure. I perfectly understand this motivation, even if I don't like the result.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

I was actually responding more to Atgxt's comments - so I don't take the idea of a financial deal as derogatory at all. We all have to earn a crust somehow.

The wider inference is that Greg's bunged Mongoose the Second Age setting and doesn't take much of an active involvement with it - which really isn't the case. He and Jeff Richard put together books like 'Middle Sea Empire' and 'History of the Heortling Peoples' precisely to act as a frame of reference for Mongoose writers, and, certainly, everything Gloranthan I've written for GtSA has been run by Greg, and then been subject to very detailed and useful discussions.

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What was the concept behind Questworld? Gates from which you could travel form world to world or something like that?

Not a bad idea. A problem could be agreeing on the type of setting/world to create though. :cool:

SGL.

The idea behind Questworlds was that Chaosium would define a base world, with geography, politics, cults and so forth, that was distinct for Glorantha but would be developed by fans, leaving Chaosium (back when they had it) to work on Glorantha's specific development. The concept's great in theory but it never really developed in practice - perhaps because, really, shared worlds require an enormous amount of commitment and resource to properly develop. There was no intrawebnet back then, and its taken the www to really offer the online collaborative tools necessary to make shared world development effective.

Whilst Gwenthia's being developed as product for publication, the intention was always to develop it to a certain stage and then release it as a basis for others to then develop as they wished. The existing body of Gwenthia is offered under the Creative Commons licence and does provide a very good basis for world sharing and development, using BRP as a system, if people want to.

I think the Design Mechanism would be very happy to discuss with those on this forum who are interested in using Gwenthia, just how they can do so, using BRP. It actually moves things back to the original vision and, given that we'll produce Gwenthia independently anyway, won't impact on our longer term plans for a glossy book.

Let's discuss this more on the Gwenthia thread. I've a whole host of supportive documents people can have, using the CC licence, to kick start a sort of shared world experience.

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