What would smelting and casting metals look like in Glorantha?

[Eddie1467]

I'm a newcomer to Runequest having played a lot of Call of Cthulhu and various other fantasy TTRPGs (such as Pendragon).

I've got an interest in real world Bronze Age & Iron Age technology. I'm aware that Glorantha metals are not our own but are more of an analogy to them. I'm wondering how it would work in Glorantha. I'm assuming you'd smelt the green copper ores and the silvery tin ore as we do in the real world?

But what about Iron? It's a Dwarven only technology right? That'd be the usual rust coloured ore with the high temperatures and the molten materials. The Dwarves would be only people in Glorantha who would actually forge rather than cast metal items then?

But then there's the Aluminium/Quck Silver metal. How the *** would you smelt that? Real world Aluminium is incredibly difficult to manufacture without the availability of electricity. I suppose it must look a lot like the smelting of Mercury then.

 

 

 

 

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, Eddie1467 said:

I'm a newcomer to Runequest having played a lot of Call of Cthulhu and various other fantasy TTRPGs (such as Pendragon).

I've got an interest in real world Bronze Age & Iron Age technology. I'm aware that Glorantha metals are not our own but are more of an analogy to them. I'm wondering how it would work in Glorantha. I'm assuming you'd smelt the green copper ores and the silvery tin ore as we do in the real world?

But what about Iron? It's a Dwarven only technology right? That'd be the usual rust coloured ore with the high temperatures and the molten materials. The Dwarves would be only people in Glorantha who would actually forge rather than cast metal items then?

But then there's the Aluminium/Quck Silver metal. How the *** would you smelt that? Real world Aluminium is incredibly difficult to manufacture without the availability of electricity. I suppose it must look a lot like the smelting of Mercury then.

There's a fair bit of information in:

https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-weapons-equipment-hardcover/?srsltid=AfmBOoqr--DzBeDnoYSdQZy8GgxEnnjF5blFn0GnUu4LCLis2zDqFDm0

Any my speculations in:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/296535/the-armies-and-enemies-of-dragon-pass

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/452062/ships-shores-of-southern-genertela

[John Biles]

6 hours ago, Eddie1467 said:

But then there's the Aluminium/Quck Silver metal. How the *** would you smelt that? Real world Aluminium is incredibly difficult to manufacture without the availability of electricity. I suppose it must look a lot like the smelting of Mercury then.
 

Lo Metal has a solid form - Aluminium and a liquid form - Quick Silver.

You use magic to turn the solid ore into the liquid form, cast it in forms and turn it back.

Remember, it's the Water Element's Metal.  I imagine it being found in nodules that have liquid quicksilver inside, held in by the solid aluminium.

(And all metals are from the bones of dead gods, so they may appear in forms in the Earth unlike how they appear in the real world.)

Also, since it's mainly made by Water Element people, which is to say underwater people, they have to rely on casting and not forging.

 

 

 

[Ali the Helering]

IMG the concept of "Work Metal" is one of the crafter's creativity rather than pre analogues of RW smithing.  A variety of direct magics, appeasing the spirit(s) within the ore, and cult secret rituals to make the metal malleable, ductile or whatever.  Then comes the physical skill.

[Joerg]

15 hours ago, Eddie1467 said:

I've got an interest in real world Bronze Age & Iron Age technology. I'm aware that Glorantha metals are not our own but are more of an analogy to them. I'm wondering how it would work in Glorantha. I'm assuming you'd smelt the green copper ores and the silvery tin ore as we do in the real world?

Quite a lot of the metal in Glorantha is found in metallic form, as nuggets or dust which can be panned much like gold can. (The separation is a little worse for copper and bronze, but still significant compared to (silicate) sand.

In our world, copper deposits come as oxides or carbonates, usually bluish-greenish, as native metal where oxygen levels turnto zero, and as black sulfides in anaerobic conditions. There are (or rather, used to be) deposits with all three of these forms. Copper will melt at reduction conditions and gathers on the bottom of the furnace as a liquid.

Tin depotsites are rather rare. Cassiterite would be a rather heavy ore that you could pan for, too, where the surrounding rock has been eroded.

In much of Glorantha, ores will be corroded bits of gods bones. Those ores might have unusually high metal content.

Basically, mathical geography (like Land Goddesses, Elder Giants, True Dragons) may impose something like organs into the matter that they may take for their bodies. There is a runic correspondence table for elements and organs which might result in ores of said rune metals being formed or accumulated in such organ layers.

 

18 hours ago, Eddie1467 said:

But what about Iron? It's a Dwarven only technology right? That'd be the usual rust coloured ore with the high temperatures and the molten materials. The Dwarves would be only people in Glorantha who would actually forge rather than cast metal items then?

Northern American natives were forging native copper found between the oxide and sulfide deposits whithout knowing anything about smelting metal. They don't seem to have cast it.

In Glorantha, uz smiths may use strike-heating to work lead and other metals. This world blacksmiths can heat an iron bar to orange glow only by hammering it for a bit.

IMG the iron ore used by the mostali resembles Magnetite, a black ore that has magnetic properties and very high iron content (Fe3O4). This is extracted from Stone and refined. Whether the Mostali iron smelting process involves analogs of carbon monoxide furnaces (the standard charcoal or coke method), or possibly hydrogen furnaces, or magical electrolysis I won't speculate.

 

18 hours ago, Eddie1467 said:

But then there's the Aluminium/Quck Silver metal. How the *** would you smelt that? Real world Aluminium is incredibly difficult to manufacture without the availability of electricity. I suppose it must look a lot like the smelting of Mercury then.

Gloranthan Aluminum (solid sea metal) only shares the name with the real world aluminium. It has roughly the same density as copper, bronze or iron but has magical buoyancy, and doesn't corrode from contact with sea water, very much unlike our world's aluminium. The metal is formed from the liquid form of the metal, which floats on water, too, and might form beach deposits similar to amber, ambergris, or microplastic (or white phosphorous from war ammunition).

There is no indication that liquid sea metal emits poisonous vapors like real world mercury does when exposed to the air. Assuming too much similarity between either form of sea metal and our real world metals would be a fallacy - the only thing solid sea metal has in common with real world aluminium seems to be the melting point (the amount of heat damage required to damage objects made from such metal by heat only). RuneQuest 3rd edition assigned 1D6 fire damage per 100°C, and I think that table might have been inherited somewhere in RQG.

 

BTW, there are indications that galvanic bottles may have been in use in the Levante region in antiquity, possibly for electrolytic coating of metals.

If you love fantasy alchemical metallurgy, creating (alloyed) metals by electrolysis inside liquid quicksilver from aqueous solutions might be possible with such sources of electricity, metals like sodium. Separating them from the mercury under anaerobic conditions or in an inert atmosphere will be a major challenge, but again not theoretically impossible.

[JonL]

10 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

IMG the concept of "Work Metal" is one of the crafter's creativity rather than pre analogues of RW smithing.  A variety of direct magics, appeasing the spirit(s) within the ore, and cult secret rituals to make the metal malleable, ductile or whatever.  Then comes the physical skill.

^ This, right here.

Gustbran cult in Dragon Pass & Kethalia, Third Eye Blues wherever they might have settled, Mostali castes, Caliz in Teshnos, Flintnail in Pavis, Vieltor guilds/cults/societies in Ralios, Mouladehas cult in Fonrit, sub-caste societies in the West, Hondaru cult in the East, etc. - these will all have peculiar esoteric trade-secrets-indistinguishable-from-magic that interact with the symbolic/magical/spiritual/runic properties of the metals as understood by their specific tradition. Story-wise, those might make operations that harmonize with your tradition's perspective easier/more-effective, while others that are foreign/contradictory to your tradition might be harder/impossible. Part of what made the Zistorites' tech  both effective & profane was their God Learner min-maxing of picking pro-s from the various traditions they plundered without considering why the associated con-s they were ignoring/sidestepping might actually matter.

Curiously absent from the above list is a Pelorian or Lunar smith patron. If anyone knows of one, please do sing out. My intuition says that there is one among the Lodrilli culture that we never hear about because Dara Happans are too stuck up to write about peasant matters. Pelandans are known for arts & crafts as well, so I bet there's someone down that rabbit-hole too.

Edited August 30 by JonL

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, JonL said:

Curiously absent from the above list is a Pelorian or Lunar smith patron.

Gustbran is one of the Lowfires, the children of Lodril. He should be the Pelorian/Lunar smith as well (or subsumed under either Lodril himself or Enverinus, god of fire - see Gods Wall #2-17).

 

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Gustbran is one of the Lowfires, the children of Lodril. He should be the Pelorian/Lunar smith as well (or subsumed under either Lodril himself or Enverinus, god of fire - see Gods Wall #2-17).

 

Gustbran might be identified with one of the Ten Sons and Servants, and thereby as a subcult of Lodril too in the way Barntar can be included in Orlanth Thunderous.

Lodril certainlyis a shaper of weapons.

Edited August 31 by Joerg

[metcalph]

The trouble with using the Gods Wall is that in the Golden Age, Dara Happa doesn't seem to be a metal working culture (that's not to say, they didn't have metal objects but they seem to have sung it rather than worked it with their hands).  So there's really going to be a lot of hand-waving by the Dara Happans themselves about an acceptable smith god.  Which is probably why the Third Eye Blue seems to be their main smith god rather than Gustbran.

[Eddie1467]

Wow!

I'm really impressed by the responses and the information you've all provided! Thanks all of you for the help.

The level of detail in the Glorantha setting is really high.

I hadn't thought of the metal mainly being found as nuggets - again another one of those assumptions that you make

I'm now going to have a read about the Smithing Gods of Glorantha, I'm curious to see which ones have the most in common with Wayland the Smith, Hephaestus, Ilmarinen etc...

So these God Bones? I'm assuming a mine doesn't look a like half mile long humerus bone made of copper laid out in the landscape. You'd have various different groups all gathered round to hack chunks off it, shanty towns, trading settlements, quarrels over who has ownership of which bit etc...

[soltakss]

On 8/29/2024 at 5:29 PM, Eddie1467 said:

I've got an interest in real world Bronze Age & Iron Age technology. I'm aware that Glorantha metals are not our own but are more of an analogy to them. I'm wondering how it would work in Glorantha. I'm assuming you'd smelt the green copper ores and the silvery tin ore as we do in the real world?

Gloranthan metals come from the bones of slain deities, not from ores, unless the bones degrade to ores over time. However, I have no problem with the flesh and blood of slain deities becoming what we would know as ores. Some blood crystalises to becomes POW Storage or Powered Crystals and they might be found by miners. Assuming there are ores it would be a cult, guild, or trade secret to smelt them and turn them into metals.

Once they are in metallic form they would be worked in the same way that they are in the real world, albeit using ancient technology and techniques.

On 8/29/2024 at 5:29 PM, Eddie1467 said:

But what about Iron? It's a Dwarven only technology right? That'd be the usual rust coloured ore with the high temperatures and the molten materials. The Dwarves would be only people in Glorantha who would actually forge rather than cast metal items then?

Other people have stolen the knowledge of how to work iron from the Mostali. The Third Eye Blue smiths famously have the knowledge to work iron. Similarly, the Humakt cult can use Craft (Iron). In my Glorantha, all cults, except for Troll and Aldryami, can work iron and do so for their Rune Lords.

On 8/29/2024 at 5:29 PM, Eddie1467 said:

But then there's the Aluminium/Quck Silver metal. How the *** would you smelt that? Real world Aluminium is incredibly difficult to manufacture without the availability of electricity. I suppose it must look a lot like the smelting of Mercury then.

It is used by water cults who wouldn't use fire or heat to work it, so I assume that it is worked magically.

[Sir_Godspeed]

6 hours ago, Eddie1467 said:

So these God Bones? I'm assuming a mine doesn't look a like half mile long humerus bone made of copper laid out in the landscape. You'd have various different groups all gathered round to hack chunks off it, shanty towns, trading settlements, quarrels over who has ownership of which bit etc...

Just want to add: Jeff has specified that probably most bronze in Glorantha is alloyed, not just found in the form of godbones, so there's probably a lot of ore in Glorantha that's not recognizeable as remnants of anything.

[Ali the Helering]

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In my Glorantha, all cults, except for Troll and Aldryami, can work iron and do so for their Rune Lords.

I always think of this in terms of biohazard suits...

[soltakss]

3 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

I always think of this in terms of biohazard suits...

Derak the Dark Troll's Player was fond of saying "Twice nothing is nothing" when handling iron.