ale, beer production and storage in glorantha

[Tiný]

Get a drink comrades ! Ale, Mead, Wine and fermented Milk in Glorantha
Yes its an atmosphere question again, as your hungry and thirsty (for information as well) adventurers stumble into the local Inn to feed and drink and bore the locals with tales of daring doo and lucky escapes. But ah ha as the GM describes the Inn and the daily stew and the wine amphorae leaning on their wooden racks against the wall , we come to the poor person drink of choice , ale 1/5 of a clack !!

But godday is a day for worship and a few drinks and some good chat at the local .So the question is how is the ale made and kept (not for long I fear) the books say amphora but the historical correct answer would be barrels ,no not those fantastic ones with sealed tops and bound with iron , but crude ones with loose lids and bound with vines and rope.

As for the making of ale and other drinks like mead and cider , a large wooden open topped bath would be the ticket ? Or is it a series large bell beaker pottery jars buried in the ground and covered eachone holding 3 to 4 liters of beer? whats your thoughts ?

 

[Kloster]

My Glorantha uses amphorae for ale and mostly barrels for vine. Historically, barrels appear much later than amphorae because they needed iron metallurgy to hold the pieces of wood together, but I think it is feasible with bronze, so can occur in Glorantha.

And you can have very sophisticated amphorae, even with very low tech: There were sealed amphorae in Mycenae and others used by Etruscan merchants far in the 2nd millennium BC.

[soltakss]

Why would you want to keep ale and beer? You brew it then you drink it. If you trade it then you could put it in barrels or amphorae and transport it, but you would probably drink it soon after arrival. Some people might have spells that keep beer, ale, or mead fresh.

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Tiný said:

So the question is how is the ale made and kept (not for long I fear) the books say amphora but the historical correct answer would be barrels ,no not those fantastic ones with sealed tops and bound with iron , but crude ones with loose lids and bound with vines and rope.

Did the Sumerians have barrels? They passed on the oldest written recipe for beer.

[soltakss]

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Did the Sumerians have barrels?

Wikipedia's History of Beer doesn't mention how ancient beer was stored but Spike Brewing's History of Beer mentions ancient Egyptians using amphorae sealed with wax, and says that Mesopotamians stored beer in large ceramic jars called "qvevri" or "kuwapi", typically made from clay and were often lined with bitumen, a sticky black substance, to make them watertight. 

Edited September 8 by soltakss

[Nozbat]

29 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Did the Sumerians have barrels? They passed on the oldest written recipe for beer.

Probably not. But beer was drunk rather than water throughout history as it was safer than drinking water, particularly in cities that had large populations and poor sewage management. Small beer with a low alcohol content was probably as important to the Summerians as to the citizens of Early-modern Paris.

In the early modern period, most cities had ale wives who sold their excess beer and ale to taverns or neighbours as a way to supplement income. The production was in large vats and transferred into the customer's jugs (re-usable ecologically sound wares) or barrels to taverns and inns if they had a particularly large surplus. They tended to add herbs and spices according to their own individual recipes. I seem to remember that there was a limit on the amount that could be produced and sold on but that might be wrong. As ale turns sour fairly quickly it was one of those staples that was constantly produced.

The Hanse made their fortune with beer and salted fish transported throughout Europe in barrels. In 1500 CE, Lüneburg had over 20 breweries in a city of population of circa 14,000. One of the city laws was that citizens were not allowed to throw waste into the river on Tuesdays so that the water could be drawn into the water tower on Wednesdays to make beer. I suspect those that drank beer (that is everyone) would be keen to adhere to the Law. It would be pretty shit otherwise.

I think its also important to remember that taverns and inns primary purpose was as somewhere to eat, to lodge, to stay over, to meet for business, plan rebellions, do some swyving, do some trade etc.. (and not necessarily in that order). Alcohol consumption was often a secondary aspect particularly if small beer ( which was as little as 0.5%) is served. It was mostly the richer University towns that had students going to get drunk and then a quick swyve, before heading back to their lodgings.

I don't see ay reason why Glorantha should be any different from the real world, unless magic is used in the water purification process or the beer brewing process, particularly in larger population centres. I'm sure someone will tell me, Jörg...

 

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Did the Sumerians have barrels? They passed on the oldest written recipe for beer.

As far as I can remember, barrels were first created by gauls far after Sumerians disappeared from history.

[Ali the Helering]

10 hours ago, Tiný said:

As for the making of ale and other drinks like mead and cider , a large wooden open topped bath would be the ticket ?

My experience on traditional brewery visits and archaeological sites suggests stone,  not wood.  Yorkshire 'Squares' are still very much in use.

[Nozbat]

Just now, Ali the Helering said:

My experience on traditional brewery visits and archaeological sites suggests stone,  not wood.  Yorkshire 'Squares' are still very much in use.

My experience of traditional brewery visits is that I have difficulty thinking and walking in a straight line and often struggle with balancing on a flat stable surface.. but thats another story

[Tiný]

On 9/8/2024 at 10:23 PM, Ali the Helering said:

My experience on traditional brewery visits and archaeological sites suggests stone,  not wood.  Yorkshire 'Squares' are still very much in use.

so these would be stone square tanks ? like so

 

 

[Ian Absentia]

On 9/8/2024 at 10:12 AM, soltakss said:

...Mesopotamians stored beer in large ceramic jars called "qvevri" or "kuwapi", typically made from clay and were often lined with bitumen, a sticky black substance, to make them watertight. 

Mm, bitumen.  A.k.a., tar (though specific definitions vary).  And doubtless, like the "oaky" flavor from aged casks that became the popular hallmark of chardonnays in the '80s and '90s, that pitchy, petroleum mouthfeel and finish was a touchstone of the connoisseur's appreciation of a fine ancient beer.  Speculatively, of course.

I joke, but the methods of preservation of perishable trade goods often become criteria of distinction and appreciation.

!i!

[Ali the Helering]

Apparently bitumen is a term frequently associated with Barolos and Rhône's.  No idea about beers, however.

[Eddie1467]

In Georgia (the country in the Caucasus Mountains, not the U.S. State) have been fermenting wine now for 8 millennia, so it's neolithic in origin. They still use huge clay pots, called Kveri, there's a link below. When we say huge we mean as much as 10,000 litres or 2200 gallons! The taste is unique to Georgia, you don't get the oakey flavours you get from fermenting in barrels. 

They're not strictly speaking amphorae. Basically, the Kveri is washed thoroughly before the mash of the pips, skin, juice stalks etc... of the grapes goes in. The lid is a pottery plate and it's sealed with wet clay. It's left for 5 - 6 months over winter to ferment before being decanted and filtered. Traditionally they knew the grapes had been fermenting long enough when they heard the first thunderstorms of spring. 

The pots are often buried in the floors of the winery, so if you ever visit one, watch where you're putting your feet!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvevri

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_wine 

[Tiný]

Yah Buried in the floor is what I seem to find is the norm for beer and wine in de gode olden days of bronze 😉

[Ali the Helering]

Using wild grapes would mean quite viable viticulture in Balazar.  A refreshing (if sharp) change from Elkoi beer

[Joerg]

On 9/18/2024 at 11:52 PM, Ali the Helering said:

Using wild grapes would mean quite viable viticulture in Balazar.  A refreshing (if sharp) change from Elkoi beer

The berries of wild grapes are hardly larger than other berries you would find in such ecosystems, and all kinds of berries can be used to make wine (or spirits). Currant, lingonberry, strawberry, blueberry, raspberry, blackberry, even juniper.

Real world grapes do help provide the yeast starters, though.

Edited September 20 by Joerg
remembered about yeast