Initiate of Lhankor Mhy _and_ Irrippi Ontor? How problematic?

[ROOTless]

I'm making a few characters to explore the system before I play/run it. I came upon the idea of a sorcerer who'd initated with first LM and later IO. But...

How much of a problem would that actually be? IO is mentioned as having been an 'outlawed priest of LM (as Busarian)' as a mortal. Outlawed according to whom? Temporal authorities? The LM cult? In the later case, I'd expect some conflicts between the 2 cults, though in the former case, not so much.

The two cults apparently can share a temple, can they share initiates?

[Nick Brooke]

I don’t see why not. IO adherents may consider LhM/Buserian rather quaint, but nevertheless they can see the virtues of traditional educational approaches, even if they would tend to take a more radical view themselves. And LhM knows that IO is right. (They are both Truth Rune cults, after all.)

[David Scott]

28 minutes ago, ROOTless said:

I'm making a few characters to explore the system before I play/run it. I came upon the idea of a sorcerer who'd initated with first LM and later IO. But...

This is certainly within the realm of playing a RQ adventurer.

28 minutes ago, ROOTless said:

How much of a problem would that actually be?

AS much as it is a roleplaying opportunity in the game.

28 minutes ago, ROOTless said:

IO is mentioned as having been an 'outlawed priest of LM (as Busarian)' as a mortal. Outlawed according to whom? Temporal authorities? The LM cult?

That's likely up for debate or is even a covering myth (that is obscuring the actual origin)

28 minutes ago, ROOTless said:

In the later case, I'd expect some conflicts between the 2 cults, though in the former case, not so much.

Again that's for roleplaying.

28 minutes ago, ROOTless said:

The two cults apparently can share a temple, can they share initiates?

sure, have fun.

[Geoff R Evil]

Hmmm wondering if my PC will meet this PC in tomorrow nights game 🙂

another reason this may work is if the player is in an area that allows lunar and orlanthi to live side by side, like Furthest!

[EricW]

6 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

I don’t see why not. IO adherents may consider LhM/Buserian rather quaint, but nevertheless they can see the virtues of traditional educational approaches, even if they would tend to take a more radical view themselves. And LhM knows that IO is right. (They are both Truth Rune cults, after all.)

Wouldn’t being part of a pantheon which includes friendly chaos gods, and being a god which encourages illumination and has no qualms about using chaotic magic, wouldn’t that be an issue for lightbringer LM?

[Nick Brooke]

6 minutes ago, EricW said:

Wouldn’t being part of a pantheon which includes friendly chaos gods, and being a god which encourages illumination and has no qualms about using chaotic magic, wouldn’t that be an issue for lightbringer LM?

As I said, “quaint.” Irrippi Ontor has explained in great detail why these fears are misguided, but it seems some Oldthinkers don’t want to get the message.

[metcalph]

I do find it interesting that Dayzatar who holds the Truth Rune has a pathway for Irrippi Ontorites to join him but not Lhankorings. 

[Jens]

I'm currently playing a Tarshite Lhankor Mhy Sage residing in Mirin's Cross. Political pressure from the local authorities made the PCs strengthen ties with Lunar cults; my character joined Irrippi Ontor as a Lay Member (he'd love to get access to their library, and perhaps peek in a grimoire or two), while our Trickster embraced the love of the Seven Mothers by becoming an Initiate. Will be interesting to see how they develop as unexpected knowledge has appeared on their sheets (illumination).

[Jeff]

On 9/18/2024 at 7:39 AM, Nick Brooke said:

I don’t see why not. IO adherents may consider LhM/Buserian rather quaint, but nevertheless they can see the virtues of traditional educational approaches, even if they would tend to take a more radical view themselves. And LhM knows that IO is right. (They are both Truth Rune cults, after all.)

The cults are Friendly and can even share temple-libraries. The main problem is that IO folk consider LM to be arrogantly hidebound and even counterproductive in their neutrality and LM folk consider IO to be a bunch of partisan hacks who would twist the Truth for ambition or imperial favour. 

[g33k]

33 minutes ago, Jeff said:

... The main problem is that IO folk consider LM to be arrogantly hidebound and even counterproductive in their neutrality and LM folk consider IO to be a bunch of partisan hacks who would twist the Truth for ambition or imperial favour. 

Leaving room for a PC who has concluded that both are absolutely right -- all that Truth Rune, donchaknow, they both gotta be right!   🤪

Of course, that leaves the PC in a politically-perilous position -- without any real allies, protectors, or patrons (having burnt both the "hidebound" and "hack" bridges in play) -- when the poison pens come out.   🥸

[Nick Brooke]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

The cults are Friendly and can even share temple-libraries. The main problem is that IO folk consider LM to be arrogantly hidebound and even counterproductive in their neutrality and LM folk consider IO to be a bunch of partisan hacks who would twist the Truth for ambition or imperial favour. 

Both are, of course, correct. From a certain point of view.

[Nick Brooke]

So here's how I see it working. Around 1200 ST, Irrippi Ontor brought a profound, transformative insight to Gloranthan academia, for which he was ostracised. But he was right, and history shows that he was right. The intellectuals who viscerally reject his understanding are like 20th century physicists clinging vainly to Phlogiston theory or Newtonian mechanics, rejecting the "scary" implications of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics because they can't bear the cosmic horror of revising their traditional world-view. Four hundred years later, the Lunar Academy sees them as akin to flat-earthers. The empirically-proven implications of "Chaos is, in itself, neither evil nor inimical" meet "La la la, I can't hear you!" and a background drone of timorous, antiquated bullshit. It's a campaign between Lunar Freedom of Thought and the hidebound orthodoxy of Yuthuppa-Nochet academia. And only one side has Truth, Justice and the Crater Makers behind it...

Look, if you're going to do Mad Science, do it properly. That's all I'm asking.

[Joerg]

17 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

The empirically-proven implications of "Chaos is, in itself, neither evil nor inimical"

Next you are going to tell me that it is environmentally friendly? Well, I have a great plot of land below Old Top to sell to you, then, or in the Footprint.

[Nick Brooke]

As if by magic, a background drone of timorous, antiquated bullshit and hidebound orthodoxy appears...

[David Scott]

44 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

So here's how I see it working. Around 1200 ST, Irrippi Ontor brought a profound, transformative insight to Gloranthan academia, for which he was ostracised. But he was right, and history shows that he was right.

This is an important point, otherwise his cult wouldn't exist. Just like in science, those whose ideas went off track, aren't well remembered.

[Nick Brooke]

So one thing I never got to ask Greg about: is Irrippi Ontor "the Brown Man" because he was modelled on Giordano Bruno? Except that instead of being tried as a heretic and burned alive for his countless crimes against orthodoxy, he became the transformative founder of a new cosmic epoch which celebrated his discoveries.

(I know some of you don't handle translations easily: "Bruno" means "Brown" in Italian.)

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

So one thing I never got to ask Greg about: is Irrippi Ontor "the Brown Man" because he was modelled on Giordano Bruno? Except that instead of being tried as a heretic and burned alive for his countless crimes against orthodoxy, he became the transformative founder of a new cosmic epoch which celebrated his discoveries.

(I know some of you don't handle translations easily: "Bruno" means "Brown" in Italian.)

Yes, at least on some level. Greg had Yates' book on Bruno (along with a fair number of Yates' other books - I think it was Greg who turned me on to Yates in the first place). Now unlike Bruno, our Brown Man did not reject the cosmic sphere of the Sky Dome in favour of multiple worlds, but did reject that whole Plentonius-style heliocentricism and was willing to accept the sky as incomplete despite Yelm. And as above, so below. Or perhaps as below, so above. 

Whatever it was, our Brown Man looked at the sky and its operations in ways that greatly shocked orthodox scholars. It wasn't Chaos that he embraced - heck IO has no association with the Chaos Rune - but rather he said the sky is incomplete. He rejected entire lines of celestiology going back centuries. This was his initial breach with orthodoxy. He participated in the secret conspiracy to give rebirth to a lost planetary deity, which succeeded in ways that even the Brown Man did not initially comprehend. And this is the important point - the Brown Man was absolutely right that there was a lost Moon goddess and he was crucial in restoring her to the heavens. There is now a Moon Goddess, its existence is undeniable.

Now there is a tension with many LM sages about whether the existence of this Moon goddess is a good thing, a neutral thing, or a harbinger of cosmic destruction. Most that thought this was a good thing just went along and joined with IO during the wars against the Carmanian Empire. Those who thought it neutral largely stayed with LM - and even now within the Lunar Heartlands there are thousands of traditionalists who stay intellectually impartial on such matters, although over the centuries that number has no doubt declined. But those who thought the Red Goddess's associations with Chaos are evil, those definitely stayed with LM. Despite this, LM cultists and IO cultists certainly collaborate and debate with each other rather than attack each other. The cults are friendly rivals rather than sworn foes.

[Aurelius]

Reading this thread I realized that in the cosmopolitan and inclusive-assimilating Lunar Empire this kind of syncretism should be a culturally recognized phenomenon with its cultural implications. Not something everyone does of course, but in our world everyone seems to have a take on furries although actual furries are few.

In the illuminated upper class it makes total sense for an adventurous troll-trading Etyries priest to look for meaning of life in Argan Argar rites. In esoteric Yanafali circles there is a persistent inconvenient rumor that Humakt still has a more raw take on death. And any IO priest, stonewalled by buseri archivists or wanting to learn the secrets of the southern barbarians, going native is a perfect solution. 

This should happen enough that these cults and social circles should have opinions on it. Is it heresy or a natural part of lunar ecumenism? If its fine IO priests to go seek the secrets of the grandpa, but Yanafali loathe the ones going after secrets of the rival Humakt, this becomes a political issue where both sides seek edicts from satraps and the emperor to encourage or prohibit it. 

And then there’s the other side — the orthodox humakti not wanting to see their secrets leak to the yanafali esotericists, facing the reality where the latter are becoming numerous enough to perpetuate their heretic take on Humalt essentially as a subcult. 

There could be rich flavour in this. 

[Nick Brooke]

The Lunar Way encourages its devotees to penetrate the innermost rites of other cults and learn their initiatory secrets. "We are All Us," after all.

The Lunar Empire adds two important caveats. Don't go native... and watch out for the natives!

[Aurelius]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

The Lunar Way encourages its devotees to penetrate the innermost rites of other cults and learn their initiatory secrets. "We are All Us," after all.

The Lunar Empire adds two important caveats. Don't go native... and watch out for the natives!

Inconveniently, this also exposes lunar cults to infiltration by the enemies of the empire, particularly as there are no spirits of reprisal to keep watch. 

What are the social implications of that?

Trust issues mean that some 7M worshippers are far more equal than others. Frontier temples enlist riddlers from Heartlands to maintain exposure to Illumination as a deterrent against infiltration. False rumours of illumination are a stronger deterrent, but illuminated infiltrators might even turn into collaborators. Inconveniently, there never seem to be vacancies for priesthood except when there is a genuinely trusted candidate around. Cloaks and daggers in wheels within wheels at Boldhome temple?

[Jeff]

On 9/20/2024 at 7:04 AM, Jeff said:

Yes, at least on some level. Greg had Yates' book on Bruno (along with a fair number of Yates' other books - I think it was Greg who turned me on to Yates in the first place). Now unlike Bruno, our Brown Man did not reject the cosmic sphere of the Sky Dome in favour of multiple worlds, but did reject that whole Plentonius-style heliocentricism and was willing to accept the sky as incomplete despite Yelm. And as above, so below. Or perhaps as below, so above. 

Whatever it was, our Brown Man looked at the sky and its operations in ways that greatly shocked orthodox scholars. It wasn't Chaos that he embraced - heck IO has no association with the Chaos Rune - but rather he said the sky is incomplete. He rejected entire lines of celestiology going back centuries. This was his initial breach with orthodoxy. He participated in the secret conspiracy to give rebirth to a lost planetary deity, which succeeded in ways that even the Brown Man did not initially comprehend. And this is the important point - the Brown Man was absolutely right that there was a lost Moon goddess and he was crucial in restoring her to the heavens. There is now a Moon Goddess, its existence is undeniable.

Now there is a tension with many LM sages about whether the existence of this Moon goddess is a good thing, a neutral thing, or a harbinger of cosmic destruction. Most that thought this was a good thing just went along and joined with IO during the wars against the Carmanian Empire. Those who thought it neutral largely stayed with LM - and even now within the Lunar Heartlands there are thousands of traditionalists who stay intellectually impartial on such matters, although over the centuries that number has no doubt declined. But those who thought the Red Goddess's associations with Chaos are evil, those definitely stayed with LM. Despite this, LM cultists and IO cultists certainly collaborate and debate with each other rather than attack each other. The cults are friendly rivals rather than sworn foes.

And here's a few thoughts to keep in mind when thinking about the mysteries of the Seven Mothers:
1. They aren't associated with Chaos. The only Chaos deity the Seven Mothers are associated with is the Red Goddess. Crimson Bat? Nope. That's part of the Red Goddess' story, not the Seven Mothers. How about Nysalor? Nope. Again, that's part of the Red Goddess's story, not the Seven Mothers. Once the Red Goddess is born, the Seven Mothers have largely done their great deeds. But wait about Chief and High Priests of the cult - they get Chaos Gift, right? Yep. But they get it directly from the Red Goddess, not from the secrets of the Seven Mothers.

2. The Seven Mothers aren't really paths towards Illumination. The Seven Mothers likely weren't Illuminated when they performed their great quest. Becoming Illuminated by Nysalor is part of the Red Goddess's story, not theirs. They likely became Illuminated later, but by the Red Goddess. Or maybe not even then. Doesn't really matter, as the Seven Mothers had done their key act in the Lunar play - they were responsible for the rebirth of the Red Goddess, which is quite sufficient.

3. The Seven Mothers are heralds of the Red Goddess. That is their great claim to fame - the Seven Mothers are responsible for the rebirth of the Red Goddess. They are the Virgin Mary of the Lunar religion, far more approachable and understandable than their far more powerful daughter. 99% of the population never will become initiated directly to the Red Goddess - but the Seven Mothers can call upon the Red Moon for you. They prepare the mundane world for the Red Goddess, but do not carry her core secrets. That you need to go further to experience.

[Nick Brooke]

2 hours ago, Aurelius said:

Inconveniently, there never seem to be vacancies for priesthood except when there is a genuinely trusted candidate around. Cloaks and daggers in wheels within wheels at Boldhome temple?

Spoiler

I think your information is outdated as of the Dragonrise.

 

[davecake]

On 9/20/2024 at 10:59 AM, Jeff said:

The main problem is that IO folk consider LM to be arrogantly hidebound and even counterproductive in their neutrality and LM folk consider IO to be a bunch of partisan hacks who would twist the Truth for ambition or imperial favour. 

And neither is provably incorrect. 

And of course, occasionally they switch places. Sufficiently hidebound Pelorian scholars see themselves as heirs to millennia of Buserian tradition. Sufficiently ambitious LM members are just interested in the important knowledge of the EWF, Arkat, and some innovative new magical techniques that they have learnt about from that fascinating Argrath fellow. This new Magical Union thing is quite the place for an up and coming scholar. 

Edited October 2 by davecake