Solar Esrolia

[None]

A few years ago I while talking about my interest in a solar campaign (witch I haven't given up on by the way I've just been very busy, and still am sadly, and I'm also waiting fro the solar cults book) mentioned that I was more interested in a "Solar Esrolia" rather than a "Solar Prax" as the reason why I wasn't terribly interested in a Grazelander campaign.

Recently a thought came to me. "What would a Solar Esrolia actually be like?" Since I usually find what if scenarios interesting and I'm a little bored I thought 'why not?'

Unfortunately since I fell I'm not that knowledgable about Esrolia or Glorantha in general and more minds tend to give rise to more ideas I decided to to see if any of you felt like humouring me despite probably not being able to contribute al that much myself. I'm specifically asking for different interpretations and variants of a fully Solar Esrolia, the forms it could take and the effect this would have on the surrounding areas. Not just the 'most likely' or 'most realistic' (just please go to deeply into the purely silly and comedic, this is a serious question).

 

Also, I'm still alive despite my inactivity. I'm just naturally prone to lurk rather than post.

Edited September 26 by None

[Joerg]

The Stafford Library title Esrolia - Land of 10,000 Goddesses mentions a Harono temple, a solar ziggurat in Nochet, and gives a few myths about how Kodig the Bad Man overthrew the benevolent (?) reign of Harono, which might be a local name for Yelm or a local sun god (which makes no difference to entry level God Learners). It also has notes on Palangio's Sun Domer cult of Yelmalio and its EWF incarnation during the Kotor Wars, and how it was ousted from the city. Plus stuff on Elmal which nowadays is just another name for Yelmalio.

[metcalph]

I think it's called Caladraland.  

There is a significant population of Yelmalions in Caladraland (80k) according to CoR: Mythology but I have no idea of their origin or where they live (Porthomeka?)  Presumably they've adopted Monrogh's revelations and are now Sun Domers.  The Esrolian Yelmalions are probably descended from the Harono and largely exist as a cult of Husband Protectors (ie no Sun Counties here) and I imagine they too have been patched over.  

[None]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

I think it's called Caladraland.

Not exactly what I had in mind as I don't exactly think of it as 'Esrolia' or 'fully Solar' as much as just 'Lodril land'. Although yes I know. he is a solar god and Cladraland is part of the holy country. It's just not given nearly as much attention as Esrolia so I don't know or think about it much.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Solar religion is not dominant in Caladraland.  Lodril is a volcanic deity, with solar associations.  Caladra and Aurelion are volcanic deities, children of Lodril but their own cult.  Yelmalio is way down the list and Yelm is not on the chart.  Caladraland is much different in other ways: agriculture is slash and burn rather than irrigated plowed fields. the politics is clan based rather than urban elite baded.   So not a good fit for the O.P.'s stated goals.

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, None said:

mentioned that I was more interested in a "Solar Esrolia" rather than a "Solar Prax" as the reason why I wasn't terribly interested in a Grazelander campaign.

Recently a thought came to me. "What would a Solar Esrolia actually be like?" Since I usually find what if scenarios interesting and I'm a little bored I thought 'why not?'

This kind of depends of what your goal is. Are you building a campaign with an alt-Glorantha view? Are you trying to find a place where a somewhat solar-oriented culture might exist in Esrolia? Something else?

If the former, then instead of solar culture developing centrally in Peloria, it develops in Esrolia instead around the cult of Harono the Sun (or Yelm if you prefer the streamlined labels/masks). The questions you need to ask are: 1) what happens when the Sun dies? 2) how does the culture survive and why does it stay focused on or preserve remnants of the now-absent solar deity? 3) what is the story of how the sun is brought back to life? and 4) why does it return to solar-orientation or rule when the Sun returns?

If the latter, then bear in mind that Yelmalio is a Husband-Protector of Ernalda. Per the Esrolia book, Yelmalio is defeated/sacrificed late in the 2nd Age and largely disappears (or that's the official line). But New Crystal City is built on the remnant of Elmalvo (i.e. a Yelmalio/Elmal city), so that could well be the natural place to reinsert Yelmalio as the living/dying Sun consort of Ernalda.

Alternately, Storos is protected by a Star Captain, so that's another city that may have a stronger solar/sky presence.

[None]

24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

This kind of depends of what your goal is. Are you building a campaign with an alt-Glorantha view? Are you trying to find a place where a somewhat solar-oriented culture might exist in Esrolia? Something else?

In this case I, at the moment, have any goals beyond a just for fun what if. As I said I kind of fin like what if scenario and I couldn't come up with anything myself so why not see if anyone else felt sparing it a few thoughts. So I guess it's an alt-Glorantha. Be it one with a regular solar pantheon Esrolia or an solar Ernaldan pantheon. As long at it is still in one way or another Esrolia and not 'literally just Dara Happa but translocated to Esrolian soil'.

Come to think on it the later would have some serious ramifications for the Grazers and Orlanthi. Hmm.

Not that a solar Esrolian campaign couldn't be a fun idea but no that wasn't my intent as of now.

 

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Stafford Library title Esrolia - Land of 10,000 Goddesses mentions a Harono temple, a solar ziggurat in Nochet, and gives a few myths about how Kodig the Bad Man overthrew the benevolent (?) reign of Harono, which might be a local name for Yelm or a local sun god (which makes no difference to entry level God Learners).

That could also be an interesting take to build on actually.

Edited September 26 by None

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Esrolia - Land of 10,000 Goddesses mentions a Harono temple, a solar ziggurat in Nochet

That still exists in Nochet's Sacred City. 🙂 (At least a rebuilt one still exists.)

[soltakss]

On 9/26/2024 at 7:16 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Solar religion is not dominant in Caladraland. 

It depends on what you define "Solar religion" as. If you define it as "Deities who are the Sun" then that includes Yelm, Yelmalio, Shargarsh, and a few others, but excludes Dayzatar, Yelorna, Polaris, all the Stars, Lodril, the Low Fires, Caladra & Aurelion, and so on, then you are right.

However, if you include the Fire/Sky Pantheon, then it is entirely dominant in Caldraland.

On 9/26/2024 at 9:11 AM, None said:

Recently a thought came to me. "What would a Solar Esrolia actually be like?" Since I usually find what if scenarios interesting and I'm a little bored I thought 'why not?'

Ernalda was married to Yelm, Lodril, and Yelmalio. Esrola was married to Lodril. So, those husband Deities and their progeny would form part of a Solar Esrolia. 

 

[None]

On 9/27/2024 at 9:22 PM, soltakss said:

Ernalda was married to Yelm, Lodril, and Yelmalio. Esrola was married to Lodril. So, those husband Deities and their progeny would form part of a Solar Esrolia.

That make me wonder. What children did Yelm have with Ernalda? The same ones as he had with Dendara? Or are they somehow different despite Ernalda and Dendara being actually totally but also not really the same goddess.

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, None said:

That make me wonder. What children did Yelm have with Ernalda? The same ones as he had with Dendara? Or are they somehow different despite Ernalda and Dendara being actually totally but also not really the same goddess.

I don't think that Ernalda has any celestial children from Yelm - Voria is the only child attributed to Yelm and Ernalda  (and Yelm and Dendara) in CoRQ Mythology, and only part of the time. The only celestial child of the All-Earth is Aether. Shargash, Verithurusa and the other six planetary sons are children of Yelm and Dendara (or Yelm and Entekos?), but not of Yelm and Ernalda.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, None said:

That make me wonder. What children did Yelm have with Ernalda?

Cult Compendium has Yelorna as the child of Yelm and Ernalda.

Cults of RQ Earth Pantheon has Voria as the daughter of Yelm and Ernalda on p13

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, None said:

What children did Yelm have with Ernalda? The same ones as he had with Dendara?

In the Mythology book p.124 you'll find Yelm and Ernalda as the parents of Voria and Yelorna. 

Same page shows Yelm and Dendara as the parents of Lhankor Mhy, Shargash, and Murharzarm. 

[Jeff]

The Sun is worshiped in Esrolia (as it is in many human lands). However, the Solar Cults are not particularly influential there. Yelm is too distant to worship directly, and the Sun God is worshiped as an associated of Ernalda or local fire/sky cults. Of these, Lodril is the most important, with his great volcano well visible from Nochet and other cities. About 1 in 20 Esrolian adults are initiated into the secrets of Lodril. Of secondary importance is Yelmalio, by whatever name you want to call him. About 1 in a hundred adults are initiated into his secrets.

 

[None]

On 9/30/2024 at 5:35 PM, Jeff said:

The Sun is worshiped in Esrolia (as it is in many human lands). However, the Solar Cults are not particularly influential there. Yelm is too distant to worship directly, and the Sun God is worshiped as an associated of Ernalda or local fire/sky cults. Of these, Lodril is the most important, with his great volcano well visible from Nochet and other cities. About 1 in 20 Esrolian adults are initiated into the secrets of Lodril. Of secondary importance is Yelmalio, by whatever name you want to call him. About 1 in a hundred adults are initiated into his secrets.

This, while interesting, is actually not that pertinent to what i was trying to do with this tread. I was trying to inspire or trigger people to come up with theories how an Esrolia that worshipped the sun and a sun pantheon while still being, in essence, Esrolis would be. Be it an Esrolia that venerated Yelm or an Ernalda the Sun Goddess.

As a what if scenario of an alternate Glorantha.

I tried to do it myself for a little while but quickly felt that I knew to little about Esrolia and Gloranthe at large to do so satisfyingly. I also thought if could be interesting to see what other people would come up with since my imagination moves in patterns I'm, well, familiar with.

Judging by  most other peoples reaction I have to assume that I either didn't express myself very clearly or that I was that thought it would be interesting. So, eh, oh well.

Maybe I should have put theory crafting or something in the title.

[mfbrandi]

18 minutes ago, None said:

Ernalda the Sun Goddess

I like this. I wonder how it would go …

Umath’s violence is to split the Earth apart. One part becomes the dome of the Sky, a “daughter” till then unknown. To keep in touch with herself, Earth daily gives birth to her fiery self — the Sun — who visits her other self — the Sky Dome — and Mother Earth nightly swallows her wandering self to integrate what she has learned. The Sun is the link between the sundered parts of the Earth/Goddess. The Earth is the Mother, the Dome, and the Holy Fire.

Oh, well, probably not. Onwards and upwards! 😉

[metcalph]

The most likely case of Ernalda as a sun goddess would be Dendara who now lives in the Sun.  I think that is what the Vormain Sun Goddess is. 

[M Helsdon]

15 minutes ago, None said:

This, while interesting, is actually not that pertinent to what i was trying to do with this tread. I was trying to inspire or trigger people to come up with theories how an Esrolia that worshipped the sun and a sun pantheon while still being, in essence, Esrolis would be. Be it an Esrolia that venerated Yelm or an Ernalda the Sun Goddess.

The two things you have to define are:

• What do you mean by Solar? Most Solar cultures in Glorantha are patriarchal.
• What do you mean by Esrolian? Esrolia is an Earth culture and matriarchal.

Now we do have terrestrial Bronze Age cultures who venerated a Sun Goddess married to a Storm God - the Hittites - and these were the powers venerated for agriculture, but Hittite culture was nothing like Esrolian. We have ancient Egypt, where there were several Sun Gods, but perhaps the closest to what you may want is Horus who was married to Hathor who was both a Solar/Sky goddess and a cow and love and mother goddess. As a Solar falcon god Horus isn't unlike Yelm merged with Yelmalio, and Hathor is closest to Ernalda (with an admixture of Uleria).

Now Esrolia is very different to Egypt, in climate and geography, but your alternate Esrolia might replace Orlanth as Ernalda's primary husband-protector with Yelm/alio. How does this change things? Well, more emphasis on gold, and perhaps Solar temple towers or ziggurats, perhaps with square Earth temples, perhaps set upon her husband's ziggurats.... 

 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, None said:

This, while interesting, is actually not that pertinent to what i was trying to do with this tread. I was trying to inspire or trigger people to come up with theories how an Esrolia that worshipped the sun and a sun pantheon while still being, in essence, Esrolis would be. Be it an Esrolia that venerated Yelm or an Ernalda the Sun Goddess.

As a what if scenario of an alternate Glorantha.

I tried to do it myself for a little while but quickly felt that I knew to little about Esrolia and Gloranthe at large to do so satisfyingly. I also thought if could be interesting to see what other people would come up with since my imagination moves in patterns I'm, well, familiar with.

Judging by  most other peoples reaction I have to assume that I either didn't express myself very clearly or that I was that thought it would be interesting. So, eh, oh well.

Maybe I should have put theory crafting or something in the title.

Ernalda is NOT a Sun goddess. Doesn't take a God Learner to disprove that. She is THE Earth goddess and in Glorantha that's not an association that can change. Heck, the God Learners tried their hardest to prove Ernalda is Dendara and failed. Both goddesses rejected the identification.

There are Esrolians who worship the Sun, but they do it through Yelmalio, the Lowfires, or even through association with Ernalda. Yelm simply is too removed, too patriarchal, and too eclipsed by Orlanth in Esrolia to have a local cult (that's not to say there is no Yelmite worship in Esrolia, but it is not native-born).

[davecake]

An interesting and more esoteric, alternative idea, though not reflective of Third Age Glorantha, is to link Earth worship to Berneel Arashagern, the part of Yelm that represents his fertility and life powers (with an unsubtle, look at Yelms big snake, symbology). 

I think this did happen in the Second Age, we got a Berneel Arashagern cult of Yelm as the husband of Dendara, and then those EWF types got all 'a serpent sounds out of draconic, doesn't it?' and messed everything up and made a dragon Emperor and the uptight Solars don't talk about it any more.

But that has very little to do with modern Esrolia. But still., and the Yelm cult is always going to resist Yelm as equal or subservient to his spouse. 

 

 

[None]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

Ernalda is NOT a Sun goddess. Doesn't take a God Learner to disprove that. She is THE Earth goddess and in Glorantha that's not an association that can change. Heck, the God Learners tried their hardest to prove Ernalda is Dendara and failed. Both goddesses rejected the identification.

There are Esrolians who worship the Sun, but they do it through Yelmalio, the Lowfires, or even through association with Ernalda. Yelm simply is too removed, too patriarchal, and too eclipsed by Orlanth in Esrolia to have a local cult (that's not to say there is no Yelmite worship in Esrolia, but it is not native-born).

None of that matters when you're theory crafting what ifs in alternate versions of a setting though.

 

12 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The two things you have to define are:

• What do you mean by Solar? Most Solar cultures in Glorantha are patriarchal.
• What do you mean by Esrolian? Esrolia is an Earth culture and matriarchal.

Now we do have terrestrial Bronze Age cultures who venerated a Sun Goddess married to a Storm God - the Hittites - and these were the powers venerated for agriculture, but Hittite culture was nothing like Esrolian. We have ancient Egypt, where there were several Sun Gods, but perhaps the closest to what you may want is Horus who was married to Hathor who was both a Solar/Sky goddess and a cow and love and mother goddess. As a Solar falcon god Horus isn't unlike Yelm merged with Yelmalio, and Hathor is closest to Ernalda (with an admixture of Uleria).

Now Esrolia is very different to Egypt, in climate and geography, but your alternate Esrolia might replace Orlanth as Ernalda's primary husband-protector with Yelm/alio. How does this change things? Well, more emphasis on gold, and perhaps Solar temple towers or ziggurats, perhaps with square Earth temples, perhaps set upon her husband's ziggurats.... 

Now we're getting somewhere.

Also, yes. Most Solar cultures in Glorantha are patriarchal and Esrolia is an Earth culture and matriarchal. Meaning I suppose you'd either have to find some compromise or equilibrium between the two or one of the to has to give. Be it a patriarchal Esrolia that is somehow sill very Esrolia or an Esrolia with a matriarchal sun pantheon and solar like culture. Or something in between.

With a sun Ernalda you could even end up altering Sartar since you could instead have a Sun Storm pairing instead of a Storm Earth pairing. Which of course makes one wonder where that leaves the earth and how and how it would affect Sartarite culture.

Also placing earth temples on top of sun ziggurats kind of paints a picture. Cant decide it would imply that the sun is extremely protective of the earth or the earth is considered to ultimately be more important but at the very least pretty much requires the two to be very tightly woven together.

12 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I like this. I wonder how it would go …

Umath’s violence is to split the Earth apart. One part becomes the dome of the Sky, a “daughter” till then unknown. To keep in touch with herself, Earth daily gives birth to her fiery self — the Sun — who visits her other self — the Sky Dome — and Mother Earth nightly swallows her wandering self to integrate what she has learned. The Sun is the link between the sundered parts of the Earth/Goddess. The Earth is the Mother, the Dome, and the Holy Fire.

Oh, well, probably not. Onwards and upwards! 😉

While with this seems like we'd end up with an Ernalda that wouldn't be all that fond of Orlanth which in turn would mean that Sartar (and Tarh I suppose) would have two sun cultures frowning at them disapprovingly from opposite sides of the map. Not to mention it would probably impact the Featherd Horse Queen.

13 hours ago, metcalph said:

The most likely case of Ernalda as a sun goddess would be Dendara who now lives in the Sun.  I think that is what the Vormain Sun Goddess is. 

And an Esroila with Dendara instead of Ernalda as their main deity would probable be quite different too. Although I have a little trouble imagining that one. Dendara seem so specifically designed not to be the head deity of a pantheon.

3 minutes ago, davecake said:

An interesting and more esoteric, alternative idea, though not reflective of Third Age Glorantha, is to link Earth worship to Berneel Arashagern, the part of Yelm that represents his fertility and life powers (with an unsubtle, look at Yelms big snake, symbology). 

Ohh, I like that one. If you build on that you could even make an alternate Yelm that's quite different from the usual version.

[davecake]

3 minutes ago, None said:

If you build on that you could even make an alternate Yelm that's quite different from the usual version.

And the EWF had a really good try at that... 

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, None said:

Also, yes. Most Solar cultures in Glorantha are patriarchal and Esrolia is an Earth culture and matriarchal. Meaning I suppose you'd either have to find some compromise or equilibrium between the two or one of the to has to give. Be it a patriarchal Esrolia that is somehow sill very Esrolia or an Esrolia with a matriarchal sun pantheon and solar like culture. Or something in between.

With a sun Ernalda you could even end up altering Sartar since you could instead have a Sun Storm pairing instead of a Storm Earth pairing. Which of course makes one wonder where that leaves the earth and how and how it would affect Sartarite culture.

Also placing earth temples on top of sun ziggurats kind of paints a picture. Cant decide it would imply that the sun is extremely protective of the earth or the earth is considered to ultimately be more important but at the very least pretty much requires the two to be very tightly woven together.

The problems are that:

• You still need to define what this alternate society is going to be like. What are you hoping to achieve?
• When you start unpicking and changing the mythic foundations of Gloranthan cultures, the resulting changes proliferate to the point where your game world isn't so much an alternate as completely different. The question is then - why not create your own setting, as changing something as fundamental as the relationship between the Elements significantly changes the world. You aren't in Glorantha, or at least in known Glorantha anymore but perhaps another bubble in the Void. Perhaps like the old QuestWorld setting (the old Chaosium boxed set, not the new system) you have a different world where, somehow Gloranthan deities or their proxies are present, but the history is entirely different. https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/chaosium-runequest-12/questworld/

So you can certainly create a Solar/Earth culture, but dropping it down into Esrolia is going to create enormous mythic and historical ripples. The culture you create isn't Esrolian.

So it is certainly possible to imagine a setting where Sun and Earth are closely linked, where there are Solar towers and ziggurats, and Earth temples. You might use ancient Egypt or the Inca Empire as a model, mashed together with the Minoan.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, None said:

While with this seems like we’d end up with an Ernalda that wouldn’t be all that fond of Orlanth

Well, we none of us are! But the Earth–Fire/Sky Mother might be OK with the “son” of the agent of violent change, even if She were the thing violently changed. We don’t have to give the gods plausible human motivations/psychology, and maybe the Earth likes being support, shelter, and warmth for her “children” — the Gloranthan bubble keeping out Chaos. Air was the necessary agent of inflation for the pocket universe and breath to all (or merely many?) of its creatures. But if necessity or violence bred resentment, that’d be OK, too, no? And without Ernalda to contain him, Umath/Orlanth/Air would just disperse into the Void, losing power as he became ever more tenuous.

But this is not a plan — I am just letting the wheels spin.

2 hours ago, None said:

Not to mention it would probably impact the Feathered Horse Queen.

I guess, but a queen uniting sky-coded feathers and horses with the earth would still be a goer — she would be the complete Ernalda priestess. Possibly presiding over a cult of parthenogenesis — air is only necessary to creatures after they are born; children are created by the mother alone; they cry on birth in echo of the trauma of Umath’s primal violence and in dismay at their new dependence on him/air.

Or something — just those creaky spinning wheels and grinding gears.

[mfbrandi]

4 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The question is then - why not create your own setting, as changing something as fundamental as the relationship between the Elements significantly changes the world.

A possible answer: imagining things differently may lead to a greater appreciation or understanding of the “standard model” — you don’t know all the things that would break until you think it through. “What if things were different …” is not necessarily an assault on things as they are. Sometimes, it is a way of understanding them.

And surely our motto is not “your Glorantha may vary … but only a little bit or we’ll send the heavies round”. 😉