Joerg Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 (This isn't a How to do this, but rather an exploration what you can do, and what you can manage to keep up with as a GM, or how to maintain your immersion as a player.) Second Sight is a spell (and a shamanic ability) which provides something like Augmented Reality for the user, revealing auras and active magic. Entering the Spirit World without it (or a similar sorcerous or Rune Magic buff) might limit your character's perception. Looking at a person should also reveal their dominant totem. E.g. the cult symbolism or clan/bloodline specials, not exactly like the White Bear hovering over Harrek, but the perception of a Telmori would be in equal measure and importance (or according to the Man-Beast dichotomy) the wolf shape and the human shape. Each person may bring their own framing into an encounter, with some of the environs a synthesis of the participants' framings, with the spirits of the locality having a strong say. Upon entry, you would be anchored in the environments of your entry point, with the local entities bringing in their own context. You don't want to discorporate just anywhere, ideally you will have befriended the spirits of the place, set up guardians or look-outs, or propitiated predators or acknowledged territorial claims by the spirits nearby, or have left friends or allies behind to take care of such things. The experiences may well apply to the full range of the sensorium - not just vision and sound, but smell, taste, haptic and texture/touch, heat/cold. 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 I totally agree Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scott Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 On 10/7/2024 at 11:04 AM, Joerg said: Second Sight is a spell (and a shamanic ability) which provides something like Augmented Reality for the user, revealing auras and active magic. Entering the Spirit World without it (or a similar sorcerous or Rune Magic buff) might limit your character's perception. Second Sight is ineffective in the Spirit World - This spell does not allow the user to view the Spirit World. It literally allows the auras viewed the Spirit World to viewed in the Middle World (hence Second Sight). Adventurers perceive the Spirit World in the most appropriate way to them. In real world shamanism, most people's experience has a strong visual component, while others don't have this and another sense is stronger, most often touch or hearing. A few have taste/smell as their strongest perception. I rely on vision, sound and touch (in that order) for descriptions and perception rolls. Other species may be different, for trolls I would use sound, touch, smell (Darksense skills). I always allow these to be augmented with Spirit Travel and Lore. On 10/7/2024 at 11:04 AM, Joerg said: Looking at a person should also reveal their dominant totem. E.g. the cult symbolism or clan/bloodline specials, not exactly like the White Bear hovering over Harrek, but the perception of a Telmori would be in equal measure and importance (or according to the Man-Beast dichotomy) the wolf shape and the human shape. Each person may bring their own framing into an encounter, with some of the environs a synthesis of the participants' framings, with the spirits of the locality having a strong say. The primary identifier for spirits would be their dominant (former) form Rune. or if you are comfortable in mashing them up, a telmori for example might appear as a wolf-headed man or a man-headed wolf. If they were always spirits, then what ever form suits the encounter. In real world shamanism a spirit may have an animal shape that has no relationship to the actual spirit. This is more about the cultural expectations of the individual than the spirit themselves. I also use their dominant elemental rune which is usually related to their cult as part of their description. Overall, I'd suggest keeping it simple. On 10/7/2024 at 11:04 AM, Joerg said: Upon entry, you would be anchored in the environments of your entry point, with the local entities bringing in their own context. You don't want to discorporate just anywhere, ideally you will have befriended the spirits of the place, set up guardians or look-outs, or propitiated predators or acknowledged territorial claims by the spirits nearby, or have left friends or allies behind to take care of such things. I'd also point out that is where you've left your body (and for shaman - their fetch. On 10/7/2024 at 11:04 AM, Joerg said: The experiences may well apply to the full range of the sensorium - not just vision and sound, but smell, taste, haptic and texture/touch, heat/cold. Remember some senses may be completely missing. 2 Quote ----- Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff R Evil Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 The first thing to remember about the world, is it’s 3D, by that I mean, you are not constrained by a plain to walk upon necessarily, just that shift is disorienting at first. Spirits are in all things … so some essence of the real world is visible in the spirit realm, but not as things we recognise. GMs tend to focus on the living things, and indeed they tend to have stronger power and this great spiritual context, but every blade of grass or rock has some remnant of spiritual context. Remember the air itself is made of spirits representing the wind and its various strengths, directional focus etc. So we humans tend to see these things, correlate them to what we know min the real world, and choose to perceive them like the real world, but that is wrong. You are moving through spirits all the time, just most are too weak to engage with you, but they are still there. So to attempt to describe it is very hard. I would instead state something similar to what I said above and let the player create their own perception of it and run with that. Maybe you might state colours don’t exist, just shades of grey maybe? Because all perception is spirit related, spirit forms, power etc, changes how things are perceived here. A powerful pebble may seem to be a small mountain in the spirit plain, because other rocks and hills have weak spirits. So correlation to the real world really is impossible to do, except maybe for the most powerful of shamen with huge experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecake Posted October 19 Share Posted October 19 On 10/7/2024 at 6:04 PM, Joerg said: Second Sight is a spell (and a shamanic ability) which provides something like Augmented Reality for the user, revealing auras and active magic. Entering the Spirit World without it (or a similar sorcerous or Rune Magic buff) might limit your character's perception. Entering the spirit world without Second Sight means you are a disembodied spirit, so you see with spirit senses. And the things you can see with Second Sight in the Middle World are pretty much the same as the things you can see in the spirit world with spirit senses, IMO. Close enough that I think it's most practical to just assume that Second Sight overlays spirit senses over your visual ones and unify the rules for both. (that said Second Sight still finds most things that are opaque to visual sight are opaque to Second Sight, which may be the reason I can not necessarily derive as much information from an aura). The sorcerous (Pierce Veil) and Rune Magic equivalents are actually distinctly differently. Pierce Veil changes what you can perceive with your sight, but does not augment your sight - you can't use it to see creatures in the dark as you can with Second Sight - and primarily works on magic points not POW, though you can tell if magic points are regenerating or not (ie you can tell if the magic points belong to a being with POW, though not its actual POW if different to its current magic points). Soul Sight is by far the best option of the three - you can see POW, magic points, and current magic points worth of spells in effect, and in addition whether a person is an initiate. On 10/7/2024 at 6:04 PM, Joerg said: ooking at a person should also reveal their dominant totem. E.g. the cult symbolism or clan/bloodline specials, not exactly like the White Bear hovering over Harrek, but the perception of a Telmori would be in equal measure and importance (or according to the Man-Beast dichotomy) the wolf shape and the human shape. Each person may bring their own framing into an encounter, with some of the environs a synthesis of the participants' framings, with the spirits of the locality having a strong say. RAW spirits can see things at POW x 10 meters, and see details at POW x 1 meters - POW roughly, to within 10 points, and Rune affinities over 50%. I think its fair enough to allow sensing sub-runes (like type of Beast, or the difference between Heat and Light), but I'm reluctant to add any cult information (which spirits explicitly can't sense at a distance, only in contact), even less clan information. I think you see very basic features at a distance, often just glow, and more specific features at the POW x 1 distance, but they are often weird and unfamiliar and require Spirit Lore. But in most cases embodied beings will look like their bodies, at least enough for recognition. (they could see the White Bear hovering over Harrek, as the White Bear has its own POW) On 10/11/2024 at 9:13 PM, David Scott said: Second Sight is ineffective in the Spirit World - This spell does not allow the user to view the Spirit World. It literally allows the auras viewed the Spirit World to viewed in the Middle World (hence Second Sight). Yes. IMO Second Sight lets you use your spirit world senses in the Middle World. You can, of course, perceive spirits that happen to be in the Middle World (such as those that have had Visibility cast on them. But anyone can use their spirit world senses in the spirit world, albeit often without much comprehension of what they are seeing, at least at first. Or you could just create a Second Hearing, Second Scent, etc spells and specify that some shamanic traditions gain that as a permanent ability instead I guess? I don't think any is able to target weapons accurately by scent as Second Sight can? A couple of interesting questions arise from the Enhanced Second Sight shamanic ability - which actually has a LOT of levels to it, and can potentially reveal a lot. Does it enhance the shamans ability to see on the Spirit Plane as well? I'd probably say yes, but that is definitely making assumptions about the rules. And does the existence of shamans with greatly enhanced powers to see information about spirits, imply that there are spirits with those enhanced senses too? I think absolutely, though I have no idea how such abilities might be acquired, but certainly higher powered spirits might have better senses. On 10/11/2024 at 9:13 PM, David Scott said: Adventurers perceive the Spirit World in the most appropriate way to them. In real world shamanism, most people's experience has a strong visual component, while others don't have this and another sense is stronger, most often touch or hearing. A few have taste/smell as their strongest perception. I think usually spirits that have been embodied see it with their primary sense from their embodied form. And while some shamans might perceive it as a sense other than sight, I think this is pretty rare. But I think it is pretty much the same in game terms no matter what sense it seems to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted October 19 Author Share Posted October 19 1 hour ago, davecake said: Entering the spirit world without Second Sight means you are a disembodied spirit, so you see with spirit senses. So an embodied creature experiencing disembodiment obtains a panoply of spirit senses? Just basic ones, or possibly trained ones? Are they experienced synesthetically, paralleling embodied experiences with known senses? 1 hour ago, davecake said: IMO Second Sight lets you use your spirit world senses in the Middle World. So your base assumption is that everybody has spirit senses, and that Second Sight summons these into the Mundane World? Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squaredeal Sten Posted October 20 Share Posted October 20 It seems to me that for game purposes, the first proposition must be true (every player's discorporate spirit is able to sense the Spirit World.) Otherwise discorporation may be a dead end, which is not MGF. On the Adventurer's first discorporation that sense would be untrained, and RQG's description indicates many unfamiliar images, but IMHO with experience they should be better at interpreting what they see. If only to let the GM's side of the story get on to an underlying plot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecake Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 20 hours ago, Joerg said: So an embodied creature experiencing disembodiment obtains a panoply of spirit senses? Just basic ones, or possibly trained ones? Well, the obvious alternative would be that they are 'blind' in the Spirit World, so I think so. These senses are described as universal to disembodied spirits, as well (I don't think all spirits have exactly the same senses, but having better senses than the basic is probably more common than less). 20 hours ago, Joerg said: Just basic ones, or possibly trained ones? In the sense that it is always going to be a bit disorienting the first time, it's up to you, but training implies a bit more than that? Training that increases the utility of your spirit senses is not described anywhere in game (apart from Spirit Lore enabling you to recognise what you see, and Spirit Dance and Spirit Travel perhaps including elements of it). Trained implies skill. There is, of course, the Enhanced Second Sight ability, but shamanic abilities are magical boosts/enhancements not training per se. I probably would have preferred a 'Spirit Scan' skill myself as a more flexible mechanic, but we have what we have. So I'd say just basic ones, not trained, but perhaps you should explain more of what you mean by trained? 20 hours ago, Joerg said: Are they experienced synesthetically, paralleling embodied experiences with known senses? That is my general feeling, yes. And for general playability, just assume that you perceive it as physical images plus auras, you don't need to get into more detail beyond that unless you have eg born blind characters who can see with Second Sight, or spirits with very non-human forms, and such. If a spirit looks like a jellyfish, I don't think that changes how effective its senses are at all unless you specifically want it to for some reason. Though note Second Sight specifically has some properties of sight, such as being obscured by opaque objects and not sensing around corners, and whether those limitations are carried over to spirit senses (where are no opaque objects as such, but you could have, for example, smaller spirits hiding behind big ones) is an open question. There is also the general question of how spirits that have never had embodied senses perceive both the spirit world and the Middle World (when made Visible). But my general feeling is that you can ignore those questions almost all the time. 15 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said: On the Adventurer's first discorporation that sense would be untrained, and RQG's description indicates many unfamiliar images, but IMHO with experience they should be better at interpreting what they see. If only to let the GM's side of the story get on to an underlying plot. Spirit Lore is the skill that governs recognising and interpreting what you see, at least about actual spirits. Roleplay the first experience, give them a free experience roll thereafter (while it is called a Lore, it's a Magic skill not a Knowledge skill like almost all other Lores, so can be increased by experience, and uses Magic bonus not Knowledge bonus, indicating it is more intuitive and less about direct learning). And let them recognise spirits that they have previously directly experienced for free, even if that is all you know (eg these spirits look like the ones that you saw when you investigated the house yesterday). As they get higher Spirit Lore skill, you give them more information even without a roll. Even a pretty small Spirit Lore (say, 20%+) it is probably fine to almost always start describing spirits in general terms (eg referring to Plant spirits or disease spirits without having to make a roll). The rules say 'Only a shaman, priest or sorcerer can learn this skill.' but I take that to mean only a magician can take it as part of initial character creation - but honestly I'd let almost any take the skill in character creation, thus 'opening' the skill, using their personal skill bonuses if they had a good reason for it to be part of their personal back story, YGWV etc. I think anyone who has visited the Spirit World can start the skill (ie raise it from 00), and it is a cult skill for Daka Fal initiates (which makes sense, as they have both ample opportunities to interact with spirits, and access to the Discorporate spell themselves). Waha doesn't teach Spirit Lore, only Spirit Combat - I think this just indicates the average initiate of Waha is not encouraged to visit or explore the broader Spirit World without a shaman, only fight spirits when they have to. Initiates of Jakaleel are instructed in Spirit Lore, but they are all apprentice shamans anyway. Only Apprentice Shamans (or Shamans) can normally improve the skill through the occupational/cult bonus experience checks in downtime, or using occupational skills at character creation, apart from members of Daka Fal and other cults that have it as a cult skill - or it seems reasonable to include Spirit Lore in 'all Lores' (despite the skills category difference) for Philosophers (though sorcerers will be largely relying on experiencing summoned spirits rather than visiting the Spirit World). And all that said, anyone can take Hazia or other methods of visiting the spirit world that don't rely on magical ability - a fun skill too give a (former?) hazia addict! It's also OK to have other knowledge carry through to spirit world knowledge where applicable - eg if you recognise the animal, you are probably going to recognise the animal spirit. I say this partly just because the alternative sounds stupidly annoying. And of course <Cult> Lore can recognise Cult spirits - I imagine every Orlanth initiate will recognise the Orlanth spirits of reprisal, as they are described as manifesting at Orlanth ceremonies, for example, and they probably will recognise many common winds etc. Underworld Lore can help recognise various demons. And so on. I think Spirit Travel includes recognising and interpreting aspects of the spirit world 'landscape', knowing what is changeable and what is static, how to perceive subtle aspects from a distance and how it changes, etc. Depending on how you conceive Spirit Dance working, it may include understanding how the 'terrain' of the spirit world works on a shorter scale (ie within sensory range). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.