Trying to Understand how Feudalism works in Pendragon

[Baldrick0712]

Hi all. I am trying to get into Pendragon by playing a solo campaign. I've created a 21-year-old squire whose father is a vassal knight of Earl Robert of Salisbury. When my character is knighted, who does the knighting and who is his liege-lord? In the only other game I play that models feudalism - Crusader Kings 3 - he would be a courtier of his father, who would be a baron in the earldom of Salisbury. He would thus be knighted by his father, not by the Earl of Salisbury, and his liege-lord would be his father until he died, at which point he would inherit the barony and the Earl of Salisbury would become his liege-lord. Does it work the same in Pendragon or would Earl Robert knight him and then also become his liege-lord?

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Baldrick0712 said:

Hi all. I am trying to get into Pendragon by playing a solo campaign. I've created a 21-year-old squire whose father is a vassal knight of Earl Robert of Salisbury. When my character is knighted, who does the knighting and who is his liege-lord? In the only other game I play that models feudalism - Crusader Kings 3 - he would be a courtier of his father, who would be a baron in the earldom of Salisbury. He would thus be knighted by his father, not by the Earl of Salisbury, and his liege-lord would be his father until he died, at which point he would inherit the barony and the Earl of Salisbury would become his liege-lord. Does it work the same in Pendragon or would Earl Robert knight him and then also become his liege-lord?

Normally, you would expect your future liege (i.e. the Count) to knight you, hence starting to build that relationship (actually, you likely spent your youth in his court, and assuming this is in 510, you likely would have been a childhood comrade of the Count, too). Now, if the father is still alive, you wouldn't slip straight into the vassal knight slot. However, the liege lord likely wants to keep his future vassal knights close, so you'd almost certainly become one of the Count's household knights.

As your father is just a vassal knight, likely just a single-manor one (barons are vassals of the King, and multi-manor vassal knights are rare in Salisbury, too), he would not be able to afford to support a second knight from his manor. This is very much different scale from CK3, which deals with the higher nobility. If your father had been a baron or a count or a duke, sworn to the King, then it is more likely that you could have stayed in your own father's court to learn the ropes. But if you were of age to a royal prince, you would still likely spend your youth at the royal court to form friendships to last you the lifetime. And maybe even join the Prince's household to become a favorite in the future.

Edited November 3 by Morien

[Baldrick0712]

Ah, I see. So my character's father is just a knight with a small estate, a keep maybe, supported by a few acres of land and its peasants, and no other title than Knight. His liege-lord is Earl Robert of Salisbury. With such a small holding my father can barely afford arms, armour and horses for himself, never mind anyone else, so when my character turns seven he becomes the ward of a relative or friend of my father at Earl Robert's court to receive his education in courtly life as a page. When he turns fourteen he becomes a squire to one of Earl Robert's knights, possibly seeing his first battle as a non-combatant (I assume it's dishonorable for any knight or man-at-arms to attack a squire during a battle). From age eighteen onwards (usually twenty-one) he may be knighted by Earl Robert if he meets the requirements, at which point he become a household knight of Earl Robert. When my character's father dies he inherits his small holding and becomes a vassal knight of Earl Robert. Is this basically how it works then?

Edited November 3 by Baldrick0712
grammar

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Baldrick0712 said:

when my character turns seven he becomes the ward of a relative or friend of my father at Earl Robert's court to receive his education in courtly life as a page.

Not a ward in the legal sense of the word, since that implies that your father has died and you have another guardian. Being a page is somewhat different, as your father remains as your guardian. It is closer to the squire arrangement, but perhaps even better comparison would be a boarding school. 

1 hour ago, Baldrick0712 said:

When he turns fourteen he becomes a squire to one of Earl Robert's knights,

If not to the Count himself, depending when this happens (i.e. is Robert himself already a knight at the time) and how famous and well-connected your father is. if we assume that the Count has three squires, the chances are that they would be spread out in ages, a couple years or so apart. That way, there is constantly a senior/body squire (18-20), a squire (16-17) and a younger squire (14-15). Given that there are probably less than twenty vassal knights in Salisbury, if each of those families has two sons to be knighted, this is a pool of 60 squires for the Count per generation, which would mean that most of the vassal knight's eldest sons should be assigned as squires to the Count himself. Naturally, the Count would be too busy to look after their actual training himself, but still. 

1 hour ago, Baldrick0712 said:

possibly seeing his first battle as a non-combatant (I assume it's dishonorable for any knight or man-at-arms to attack a squire during a battle).

Unless the squire attacks the knight, of course. Most of the time, the squire would try to avoid combat, fight Defensively, etc, but they might join the fight to save their master, etc. And of course, the Saxons would not follow such niceties.

Also, if a knight has more than one squire, it would be more likely that it is the senior of the two (the body squire), who follows the knight to the battlefield and might indeed win his spurs while doing so. Depending on the family situation, he might already have his father's armor and horse for such occasions, especially if he is getting close to being knighted, and be practically indistinguishable from a young knight. 

1 hour ago, Baldrick0712 said:

From age eighteen onwards (usually twenty-one) he may be knighted by Earl Robert if he meets the requirements, at which point he become a household knight of Earl Robert. When my character's father dies he inherits his small holding and becomes a vassal knight of Earl Robert. Is this basically how it works then?

Pretty much, yes.

[Baldrick0712]

Thanks for your detailed response. My character was born in 487 and I believe Robert of Salisbury was born in 484, so by the time my character is 14, Robert is 17. I am not sure if the Dowager Countess Lady Ellen, Robert's mother, clings onto her Regency or hands over power to her son when he comes of age but in theory my character could be made the youngest of Robert's squires in 501. However, I think it would more fitting for him to become the squire of one of Robert's household knights. My father's background events include the Battle of Cambridge, 505, so I'm thinking that my character's father and the rest of Robert's knights and men-at-arms do battle with the Saxons near Cambridge in 505 and that my character is somewhere on the battlefield too, as an 18 year old squire. Then as he enters play in 508 at the age of 21 I can have him more or less immediately knighted by Robert. Then I have a couple of years for him to do some random knightly adventures to bring him up to 510, the start of the "Sword Campaign". I will then solo-GM "The Grey Knight" for him, starting in 515, with perhaps a couple of years of random adventures prior to this depending on when the Sword Campaign concludes (need to check).

Edited November 3 by Baldrick0712
Grammar

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Baldrick0712 said:

I believe Robert of Salisbury was born in 484.

Alas, Robert is born 492. So you will have to make do with his (actually sworn to the Regent, Countess Ellen) household knight.

In GPC:

Spoiler

508 Battle of Netley Marsh in which King Nanteleod dies. Victorious Saxons raid and pillage.
509 Robert himself is knighted, at the tender age of 17. Saxons continue to ravage the land.

So my suggestion would be that rather than ride off to do some random knightly adventures, he ought to stay home and fight against the Saxons, maybe rescue a kidnapped maiden, etc.

That is, if you wish to follow the official timeline. It is your campaign, you can do what you want. Your Pendragon Will Vary. YPWV. 🙂

[Baldrick0712]

Thanks once again. I'm hoping that Chaosium will release more books for Sixth Edition, including an updated GPC (or will at least tell us that there are no plans and we should just use the last edition).

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Baldrick0712 said:

Thanks once again. I'm hoping that Chaosium will release more books for Sixth Edition, including an updated GPC (or will at least tell us that there are no plans and we should just use the last edition).

I think "more books" is still the plan, according to this: