Do Lunar magicians purposely initiate into enemy cults to steal their magic?

[EricW]

How do cults like Orlanth prevent Lunars from using illumination or strange heroquests to plunder their magics? Does this happen on any kind of scale?

[Nick Brooke]

They can’t. We do it all the time, with great success.

[Eff]

3 hours ago, EricW said:

How do cults like Orlanth prevent Lunars from using illumination or strange heroquests to plunder their magics? Does this happen on any kind of scale?

Well, they could, for example, restrict outsiders from initiating into the cult and violently and showily retaliate against anyone showing an interest in Lunar ways. I'm sure that won't have any counterproductive effects.

As for heroquesting... I think there's not really a defense there without attempting to radically and violently adjust mythology to avoid any cruxes, gaps, or areas of ambiguity that could allow sinuous Lunar heroquesters an entrance point. Or dedicating yourself to annihilating the Lunars from the spiritual world and thus securing a future for yourselves and for Orlanthi children. 

Of course, what could also happen is adapting to the new conditions of the world. That could also happen.

[Ali the Helering]

3 hours ago, EricW said:

How do cults like Orlanth prevent Lunars from using illumination or strange heroquests to plunder their magics? Does this happen on any kind of scale?

War and megadeath.  Works a lot of the time in the RW. 

To our friends in the States - for all that is holy, vote!

[French Desperate WindChild]

a filter could be made I think:

1) is the candidate someone the local cult knows ? yes ?! ==> standard initiation tests

2) has the candidate been tested in any way  by the temple (sending in several dangerous missions to prove his values, his motivation, ...) ? yes ? ==> do you have no doubt at all ? no doubts ?! ==> standard initiation tests

3) do you want to initiate him ?

- no ?!  ==> good by sir.

- yes ?! => ask your god (or some shaman?) to identify the candidate's origin. Good orlanthi ?

                       yes ?! ==> standard initiation tests

                       no ?! ==> do you really want to initiate him ?

                                         yes ?! ==> standard initiation tests. After all, Orlanth did mistakes sometimes. The question is what will you do facing the truth

                                         no ?! ==> good by sir.

                      

[davecake]

I practice, I don't think it happens that often that Lunars 'infiltrate' by initiating into enemy cults covertly. 

It is just so much easier to just find an ambitious member of an enemy cult who already knows their secrets, and convert them to the Lunar way (with optional Illumination). 

Oh, the strange heroquest stuff though, absolutely. Hon-Eel, Jar-Eel, Hwarin Dalthippa, etc are the foremost examples, each doing so several times.

One thing that the Lunars do a lot, though, at least once they are Illuminated, is initiate into multiple Lunar cults, and lots of ancient ones if they are going to go hero questing.. Gets you access to a lot of cool magic, and an entry point into lots of ancient parts of the God Plane. Travel and Journey, as they call it. And I think it's part of why the Lunars so often turn up in heroquests unexpectedly. Often rather than initiate into an enemy cult directly and covertly, they will find a mutual point of mythic connection and exploit it thoroughly - they explore Praxian mythology via the Sable tribe mythology connection, they explore Carmanian myth via the Pelandan goddesses and Spolite connections, they explore troll myth via the Blue Moon connection, etc. 

Arguably Hon-Eel actually is an example of an Earth priestess who is later converted to the Lunar Way herself, though of course this was arguably her destiny from birth as a child of the Red Emperor (which he would at least claim was his plan all along). The Red Emperor would claim he intended this all along of course (she is one of his Inspirations), whether he did or not, he has certainly used the tactic of fathering the child deity that he needs to exist more than once, and of course Hon-Eel uses the same tactic (well, mothers not fathers) herself as well. 

The Lunars are absolutely not above exploiting those who have already covertly infiltrated their enemies (usually Chaos cults like Krarsht, Atyar, Cacodemon) and turning them to Lunar service (as GimGim does in Pavis, or Halcyon var Enkorth in Balazar). But I think they are pretty likely to treat such as unreliable and disposable assets. And Lunars are very enthusiastic about recruiting intelligence assets, but I think less for grand mythic purposes - I think it's a bit harder to use the normal covert recruitment methods on hero quester types. This is just nasty covert intelligence and intrigue, that they have learned well from Dart Competitions, usually. 

[Aurelius]

IMG they don't even need to risk a dangerous journey to Dragon Pass to do so, as Glamour has a wide range of esoteric societies covering a majority of curious, amusing and otherwise entertaining cults.

Their take on gods like Orlanth is obviously a totally McDonaldized appropriation where words are said and rituals are performed based on a theoretical understanding of their meaning. Occasionally a war trophy slave gladiator is brought in to join a rite in order to bring in a touch of authenticity, but mostly it's old men mutilating Stormspeech by reading it from paper without even knowing what the words mean.

But the spells work -- some of them, anyway, enough to attract more cultists.

[Aurelius]

On 11/4/2024 at 6:11 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

a filter could be made I think:

1) is the candidate someone the local cult knows ? yes ?! ==> standard initiation tests

This was the strategy, and it worked great! 

...until the first Illuminate made Storm Voice, and traveled to Glamour. He didn't quite proselytize... instead, he became a sort of a celebrity in the esoteric circles. And really, a bit of a fad.

Turns out, everyone wants to fly. 

Its not that big anymore, but he sure made good coin from it.

[EricW]

On 11/10/2024 at 6:22 AM, Aurelius said:

This was the strategy, and it worked great! 

...until the first Illuminate made Storm Voice, and traveled to Glamour. He didn't quite proselytize... instead, he became a sort of a celebrity in the esoteric circles. And really, a bit of a fad.

Turns out, everyone wants to fly. 

Its not that big anymore, but he sure made good coin from it.

I wonder if this was the "Moon Wind" which failed to manifest in one of Argrath's battles? Perhaps Argrath sabotaged them somehow?