Rathor

[kalidor]

Hello, I am planning to create a new character. A follower of Rathor. I think he should get claws, hibernate and Identify Scent as special rune Magic. Orlanth should give shield and Odayla bear strenght. 

What do you think? Any ideas?

I have got the cults book and rathor does not appear.

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Hello, I am planning to create a new character. A follower of Rathor. I think he should get claws, hibernate and Identify Scent as special rune Magic. Orlanth should give shield and Odayla bear strenght. 

Rather appears in the Lightbringers Book as Odayla.  Some differing associate rune spells from land goddesses and ancestors would be the main difference.  I do not believe that Rathor should have strength because that would make him a decent cult and historically the Rathori have been quite weak (and are more so now since Harrek made a new rug).

[kalidor]

5 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Rather appears in the Lightbringers Book as Odayla.  Some differing associate rune spells from land goddesses and ancestors would be the main difference.  I do not believe that Rathor should have strength because that would make him a decent cult and historically the Rathori have been quite weak (and are more so now since Harrek made a new rug).

What do you think about claws, hibernate and Identify Scent? Bears have excellent sensei of smell

[kalidor]

13 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Rather appears in the Lightbringers Book as Odayla.  Some differing associate rune spells from land goddesses and ancestors would be the main difference.  I do not believe that Rathor should have strength because that would make him a decent cult and historically the Rathori have been quite weak (and are more so now since Harrek made a new rug).

Should I use odaylas cult as template with different spells and associated gods? Lightbringers only put them together in Sky Bears section if I remember correctly.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, kalidor said:

What do you think? Any ideas?

I'd go with what Brian Duguid noted in his Children of Hykim work:

"For the cult of Rathor, use normal Hsunchen spells. For simplicity, assume some of their Transformation spells to be the same as the cult of Odayla: Bear’s Skin (3 points), Bear’s Strength (2 points) and Claws (2 points). They also have the Transform Head spell (see below)."

[Brian Duguid]

Obviously, I second that. The Rathori are also likely to have access through their shamans to various specialist spirit cults, which you can use to provide pretty much any specialist Rune Magic that feels like it will be appropriate. I suggested Bounty, Hibernate, and Summon Fish in The Children of Hykim, but Sureshot, Draw Beast etc might also be plausible. Additional spells like this can be balanced by requiring appropriate taboos.

If you want to keep things simple by using Odayla as a template, that's fine. One major difference is that the Rathori will have shamans, and no Rune Lords.

If you haven't seen it, I'll also recommend Jamie Revell's Bearwalkers, as the most detailed Rathori sourcebook you can get. It has its own (fairly short) version of the cult.

http://tiny.cc/BearW

[metcalph]

My personal opinion is that most Rathori clans worship Rathori as an ancestor (cf Cults of Runequest: Lightbringers p84-85)  and receives Claws.  Associates include Orlanth (Summon small air elemental), Frona (bless Acorns?), Janube (Waterwalk?), High King Elf (Arrow Trance) and Brother Dog (Conquer Beast).  There are specialized brotherhoods within the Forest that worship Rathor as proper rune cult (Lightbringers p123-125) with rune lords and all that.

My problem with hibernation is that all Rathori do it regardless of status.  If it were to be treated as a rune spell then a lot of Rathori magic is going to be used up all winter hibernating not just for themselves but also for their children who would be otherwise active and defenceless in the cold winter when their parents are sleeping.  And it will get worse if the Ban is considered.  So either you could make the Rathori hibernate naturally during the Winter like the Brown Elves do or have it as a special magic available to Rathir who live the customary way in the woods.  So the Rathori who live south of the river can't hibernate and are forced to use other methods of survival.  

Special spells like identify scent and all that can easily be made available by a spirit cult with the name varying from place to place,  

[French Desperate WindChild]

I m surprised to see Orlanth as associate (or any « civilized » god)

I see Rathor as an hunshen cult, like Telmor

So for me, rune spells should be the three transformation spells.

 

I m not saying that Rathor is or is not Odayla. Just if you are still a Hunshen you are a « beast » and follow beast cult, not human cult. Of course shaman may bargain with Orlanth even if they don’t trust them. Of course some Rathori are weirdos and may join Humans cults (and Orlanth is a good candidate for sure) but, doing so, are step by step leaving the hunshen way of life to become false people (or true human)

and of course some weirdos (ex) Hunshen may then discover that Rathor is Odayla but who could accept that the lord of the forest is domesticated by the air god ?!!

 

note that I may be wrong but I see Rathori as neighbors of Orlanthi people they may have trade, and sometimes mundane friendships but their gods are their gods, if there is no myth, there is no divine association 

[metcalph]

I put Frona in as an associate cult because she is Rathor's Mother (Prosopedia p41).  The relationship between Orlanth and Rathor is likewise given on p103 where the Orlanthi believe him to be  the son of Orlanth (which Odayla is) or Umath whereas the Rathori identify Orlanth's Ring as being him in the Sky.  Now it may be that at once upon a time, the Rathori didn't believe any of this, but what matters for most intents and purposes is what they believe now.

As for Rathor being a straight hsunchen cult, the sole example we have in RQ:G - that of Damal- deviates from the framework in ye olde Gods of Glorantha by offering more than the standard three transformation spells according to LoR: Dragon Pass p154 (although I'm surprised that he only has a POW of 37 p172).  So the rathori kinda have more liberty than that suggested in the Genertela boxed set.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

As for Rathor being a straight hsunchen cult, the sole example we have in RQ:G - that of Damal- deviates from the framework in ye olde Gods of Glorantha by offering more than the standard three transformation spells according to LoR: Dragon Pass p154 (although I'm surprised that he only has a POW of 37 p172).

I did not notice it and it is a big surprise for me. I just hope it is an intended breaking change* and not a random mistake. Does that mean that hunshens (like deer-hunshen) are not able to transform themselves except  once they prove to their deity-ancestor how holy they are ?

So it would be easier if you are a true human to transform yourself (Odayla, Yinkin...) into a beast than when you are from the beast people ? 🙊

 

* well a breaking change if I understood correctly previous hunshen cults 😛 

[David Scott]

16 hours ago, kalidor said:

Hello, I am planning to create a new character. A follower of Rathor. I think he should get claws, hibernate and Identify Scent as special rune Magic. Orlanth should give shield and Odayla bear strenght.

Rathor is one of the bear gods, and has the same runes as Odayla with the addition of Death.

As he's part of the Orlanth and Hsunchen pantheons, there may be some differences, but I wouldn't make two different cults. I'd keep him Orlanthi style (rune lord - loners) not hsunchen style (shaman - community based). Keeping it as loners means adventurers won't be tied down to communities (and it's less work). Alternately just buy Brian's and/or Jamie's books as suggested as they've done all the work.

If you want to keep it simple just use Odayla's magic. I'd allow Claws to be cast with the Death Rune as well as the usual Beast. Don't fall into the usual trap of adding a more special Rune spells than other similar cults would have (keep it to three).

As for associate cults. as Rathor is part of the Orlanth pantheon, and his father is Orlanth, you could keep the same cults, leaving out Yinkin. As his mother is Frona (EG 91), and could be an associate cult. However as a grain goddess, she's unlikely to contribute any useful spells, but I can see a case for either Regrow Limb or summon small earth elemental (note that as with all associate magic it may be difficult to cast - Regrow Limb uses life, movement or moon, and summon small earth elemental will use earth, so none of Rathor's Runes).

16 hours ago, kalidor said:

What do you think? Any ideas?

I have got the cults book and rathor does not appear.

He's mentioned in the Prosopaedia and Mythology. I'm pretty sure all the bear cults (Arakang, Karborn, ErtelEnari, Odayla, Rathor, etc), follow the same basic format, with the main difference being where they fall on the Man / Beast spectrum in their respective societies (loners vs. Community).

[Brian Duguid]

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

As for Rathor being a straight hsunchen cult, the sole example we have in RQ:G - that of Damal- deviates from the framework in ye olde Gods of Glorantha by offering more than the standard three transformation spells according to LoR: Dragon Pass p154 (although I'm surprised that he only has a POW of 37 p172).  So the rathori kinda have more liberty than that suggested in the Genertela boxed set.

I'd suggest that Damal as presented in LoRQ:DP is primarily in its form as a Spirit Cult, rather than as a Hsunchen ancestral cult (although the wording muddies the waters slightly). I'd anticipate it looking much more like the "cookie-cutter" Hsunchen cult amongst the Damali i.e. the Transformation spells are available to all initiates, not just to "a shaman that has aided or impressed Damal to an exceptional degree".

We also have the cult of Telmor in the RQG Bestiary, which I think remains a reasonable template for a typical Hsunchen cult, although in much-simplified form.

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

I'm pretty sure all the bear cults (Arakang, Karborn, ErtelEnari, Odayla, Rathor, etc), follow the same basic format, with the main difference being where they fall on the Man / Beast spectrum in their respective societies (loners vs. Community).

That's where I have my biggest cognitive dissonance - bears aren't really social animals, with bondings mostly between mothers and offspring and possibly siblings. Outside of Salmon Season and mating, encounters between adult bears tend to be dominated by snarls and aggression.

How did the rather gregarious Rathori culture deviate that much from their totem beast? (But then I had that discussion about the Praxian rhino already.)

[kalidor]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Rathor is one of the bear gods, and has the same runes as Odayla with the addition of Death.

As he's part of the Orlanth and Hsunchen pantheons, there may be some differences, but I wouldn't make two different cults. I'd keep him Orlanthi style (rune lord - loners) not hsunchen style (shaman - community based). Keeping it as loners means adventurers won't be tied down to communities (and it's less work). Alternately just buy Brian's and/or Jamie's books as suggested as they've done all the work.

If you want to keep it simple just use Odayla's magic. I'd allow Claws to be cast with the Death Rune as well as the usual Beast. Don't fall into the usual trap of adding a more special Rune spells than other similar cults would have (keep it to three).

As for associate cults. as Rathor is part of the Orlanth pantheon, and his father is Orlanth, you could keep the same cults, leaving out Yinkin. As his mother is Frona (EG 91), and could be an associate cult. However as a grain goddess, she's unlikely to contribute any useful spells, but I can see a case for either Regrow Limb or summon small earth elemental (note that as with all associate magic it may be difficult to cast - Regrow Limb uses life, movement or moon, and summon small earth elemental will use earth, so none of Rathor's Runes).

He's mentioned in the Prosopaedia and Mythology. I'm pretty sure all the bear cults (Arakang, Karborn, ErtelEnari, Odayla, Rathor, etc), follow the same basic format, with the main difference being where they fall on the Man / Beast spectrum in their respective societies (loners vs. Community).

Thanks you David for your insights.

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

I'd suggest that Damal as presented in LoRQ:DP is primarily in its form as a Spirit Cult, rather than as a Hsunchen ancestral cult (although the wording muddies the waters slightly). I'd anticipate it looking much more like the "cookie-cutter" Hsunchen cult amongst the Damali i.e. the Transformation spells are available to all initiates, not just to "a shaman that has aided or impressed Damal to an exceptional degree".

I don't think it's tenable to argue that the Hsunchen who are the Spirit's truest supporters have a limited access to his magics (ie no command deer, no extension 5 etc).  That was the deviation I was referring to. 

[Brian Duguid]

Well, I propose (in The Children of Hykim) that all Hsunchen cults have access to Extension, and to a wider range of magic than in the Telmori write-up, so it seems we agree.

But although I suggest for general convenience that Odayla is a useful template to use for Rathor until the spirit cults book appears, I am confident that when it does appear, we will see that they are not the same. And if the faces that Odayla and Rathor present are different (with slightly different magic), then I'll stick with my view that the aspects and magic of Damal (spirit cult) and Damal (Hsunchen) will do the same.

[David Scott]

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's where I have my biggest cognitive dissonance - bears aren't really social animals, with bondings mostly between mothers and offspring and possibly siblings. Outside of Salmon Season and mating, encounters between adult bears tend to be dominated by snarls and aggression.

How did the rather gregarious Rathori culture deviate that much from their totem beast? (But then I had that discussion about the Praxian rhino already.)

Or just imagine that Gloranthan bears are different in some way from terrestrial ones, rather than trying to figure out why.

[Joerg]

8 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Or just imagine that Gloranthan bears are different in some way from terrestrial ones, rather than trying to figure out why.

And yet we know them as brown bears, black bears and blue bears as known in the western USA when it comes to diet, behavior and environment. Bear packs or bear prides don't appear in the Odayla cult, or any suggestion that the Odaylan hunter would be gregarious.

[Brian Duguid]

23 hours ago, Joerg said:

How did the rather gregarious Rathori culture deviate that much from their totem beast?

This feels like an opportunity for an explanatory myth. Did the two-legged Rathori gain something when they lost their flexibility of form? Or did they lose something? Or was it the four-legged Rathori who lost something when they entirely lost their ability change shape?

Edited November 6 by Brian Duguid

[Alex]

On 11/5/2024 at 5:13 PM, Joerg said:

How did the rather gregarious Rathori culture deviate that much from their totem beast? (But then I had that discussion about the Praxian rhino already.)

The short answer to the second is that Praxians aren't Hsunchen.  And maybe that's the key to the Rathori too.  i dunno quite how gregarious they are as such, but going by their sheet numbers, somewhat so one'd have to infer.  But maybe there's the above-discussed 'hsunchenness spectrum' within Rathori society, where you have villages with a lesser range of magic, and the Hair Bear Bunch hunter-types living much more isolated lives out in the wilds?

[Brian Duguid]

11 hours ago, Alex said:

i dunno quite how gregarious they are as such, but going by their sheet numbers, somewhat so one'd have to infer.

We can deduce something from the fact that they once ran an empire of over a million people, which overran Loskalm and controlled most of northern Fronela for over half a century.

[radmonger]

And the fact that empire went away, and did not reform, when Harrek killed its chief god. And that, with that god dead, if Chidlren of Hykim is the be belived, the peoiple of the lands controlled are now much more normal Hsunchen, living in individual clans and using magic to emulate their totem animal.

So presumably the god that Harrek killed was some kind of Rathor Rex.

 

[mfbrandi]

8 hours ago, radmonger said:

So presumably the god that Harrek killed was …

• Rathor = Odayla = Orlanth?
• We say “killed” but isn’t the outcome of the hunt that Harrek now stands to the Bear God as Jar-Eel stands to the Moon Goddess?
• If Harrek killed anyone in the hunt, perhaps it was himself.
• Danfive Xaron (as we know him now) is the alternative outcome of the hunt?

[g33k]

On 11/7/2024 at 2:25 PM, mfbrandi said:

• We say “killed” but isn’t the outcome of the hunt that Harrek now stands to the Bear God as Jar-Eel stands to the Moon Goddess?
• If Harrek killed anyone in the hunt, perhaps it was himself.

I've long felt that Harrek's killing of Rathor was at least as much Rathor taking Harrek as Mask
(largely so the god could operate in the Middle World free from the limits of the Compromise!)
 

Edited November 13 by g33k

[Brian Duguid]

11 hours ago, g33k said:

I've long felt that Harrek's killing of Rathor was at least as much Rathor taking Harrek as Mask
(largely so the god could operate in the Middle World free from the limits of the Compromise!)

This possibility is alluded to fairly clearly in The Guide to Glorantha:

Quote

He comes from the forests of Rathorela, and became a Hero when he killed and bound his people’s god, the White Bear, to serve him (or perhaps he serves it).

It's also the basis of A Rathori story about Harrek the Berserk in The Children of Hykim. Also compare the myth of Odayla hunting the great bear (The Book of Heortling Mythology, page 84):

Quote

One slew the other and took his skin to wear, fooling the ignorant. 

 

Edited November 14 by Brian Duguid