Cult of Elmal 2.0

[svensson]

I've been ruminating over my Elmal heresy and decided to make some minor changes to it.

- I added the Beast rune to his portfolio because that was an oversight in the first version. I've chosen to keep the Motion rune to symbolize both horsemanship and Elmal's willingness to see new ways of doing things.

- I've added a tie to Eiritha as a natural extension of the cult's interest in horses. This tie is somewhat minor, only providing training in Understand Herd Beast.

- I've included a paragraph addressing the Sun Schism and the damage Monrogh did to Elmal's cult, but left the resolution of that conflict up in the air.

I've included the file below. Let me know what you folks think.

RQ Cult of Elmal.pdf

[Joerg]

Too many runes for such a low percentage cult, IMO. 

The opposed rune character traits would make rune lords of Elmal with strong Beast rather anti-social, like Yinkin or Odayla. Is that intentional?

I like your Rune Lords only approach, but that rather increases the gap between old Elmal worship and conversion to Monrogh's syncretic deity.

Beren and Redaylde are to the Elmal Cult what Durev and Orane are to Orlanth and Ernalda, the demigod avatars shaping their deity.

And somewhere in that (and the Yelmalio cult) might be Hyalor, the descendant of Yamsur.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

A section on why Yelmalio has gifts and geases, and Elmal doesn't, would be appropriate.

Overall, it seems like a slightly souped up Yelmalio, with better rune spells and less restrictions.  Why would any PC not choose your Elmal?  Have to admit I haven't thought all that hard about this...  Since, of course, maybe the upcoming Solar Cult Book may add some goodies to Yelmalio.

 

[Jeff]

That bears very little resemblance to what I'd put in for a pre-Monrogh cult. Let's set our hypothetical cult in the early Dawn Age so it actually works. Here's what I'd imagine -

Runes: Light, Truth (Elmal carries the Sun Disk and is the Cold Sun present before the Dawn, so no Fire powers).

Rune Magic: Catseye, Sunbright

Common Spirit Magic: Speeddart, Multimissile, Light, Lightwall, Farsee (no access to Ignite, Firearrow, or Fireball).

Associated Skills: Ride, Bow, Spot Hidden, Spear

Associated Cults: Ernalda, Aldrya

NOTE: Elmal is NOT associated with Orlanth or the other Lifebringers. Those cults are mutually Friendly, not Neutral.

The cult was more common before the Dawn than now (now is circa 150 ST). The Orlanth cult has grown greatly in influence, split between its Adventurous and Thunderous wings), and in the Shadowlands, Argan Argar helps gain support of the Only Old One and his troll allies. The Elmal cult is somewhat more popular in South Peloria than in Dragon Pass. The cult is suspicious (Neutral) towards Argan Argar, that becomes openly Hostile later in the age.

[Shiningbrow]

Given his important role in Defending the Stead for Orlanth,  shield is a skill as almost essential along with the (1h) spear. Going along with this, I think he'd also have access to Earth Shield... (or something similar)

Which brings me to Redalda... Ernalda's daughter... which *may* allow access to this spell as an Associate (or, Ernalda could be a direct Associate, as you have for Orlanth anyway). She could have asked her mother for a gift to protect him on his stead-guardings.

One of his most important myths required that Elmal could see through the illusions of Chaos... perhaps a Detect Truth could manage to find a way in (especially since you've got that Rune sitting there doing nothing anyway...)

Is Bow that important? Especially by the time he's Orlanth's Loyal Thane...

[AlexS]

Count me in as a fellow heretic, @svensson!

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

so no Fire powers

That makes perfect sense for Rune Magic (Elmal being the Cold Little Sun), but for me Yelmalio’s prohibition of fire-related Spirit Magic reads like a geas, and I don’t see Elmal as a geas-giving deity, so I would let the Elmali learn Ignite, Firearrow and Fireblade (Jeff mentions ‘Fireball’, but I don’t think that ever got imported to RQG from D&D so will assume he meant ‘Fireblade’).

14 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

A section on why Yelmalio has gifts and geases, and Elmal doesn't, would be appropriate

I agree, because (as hinted above) I think that is one of the key differences between the two. My take is that the Yelmalio cult added the gifts and geases to its repertoire amidst the Daysenerus-worship that gave rise to the Sun Dome Temples under the Bright Empire – the same time when it became a vehicle for importing Pelandan/Pelorian hoplite warfare techniques to the lands of Orlanthi hill barbarians and Praxian nomads. 

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

Spot Hidden

Assuming this is another D&D-inspired typo and Jeff meant to say ‘Scan’, I like it – this is a skill that translates Elmal’s vigilance well, as well as leaning into the Fire/Sky Rune associated sense of sight.

Where I think @svensson has nailed it, though, is in strengthening Elmal’s horse-associations beyond what Jeff has included – though I wouldn’t go as far as giving him the Beast Rune. I totally agree with giving Elmali Herd as a skill in addition to Ride (Horse); we are talking about famous horse-breeders here (the Runegate Triaty, the Dundealos, the Aranwyth… even the Pol Joni IMG) and Herd is the skill that reflects that.

I don’t think they get the Herd skill from Eiritha, though – there aren’t any myths that I know of to support an association with the Herd Mother, but there are plenty to support an association with Redaylde, and as @Joerg puts it,

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Beren and Redaylde are to the Elmal Cult what Durev and Orane are to Orlanth and Ernalda

So I don’t see why Herd couldn’t have come from Beren and Redaylde (or indeed Hyalor and Hippoi) instead of Eiritha.

The bottom line is that even though I wouldn’t adopt it without some tweaks, I like @svensson‘s heretical take because it gives us a viable cult choice for adventurers from a ‘horse Orlanthi’ background, which is what I’m pretty certain Greg was nodding to when he called them ‘Light Orlanthi’ – I read his insistence in the WF15 text that ‘light’ refers to their equipment not their religious affinity as typically tongue in cheek.

Without Fire-related Rune Magic the Elmali are underpowered when compared to Orlanth worshippers (or the Grazer version of Yelm – they are much closer to Kargzant than to the Sun Horse himself), but that’s completely OK because they are a minority cult, important in the borderlands but marginalised elsewhere in Sartar. They have a niche social role as horse-breeding mounted rangers and live mostly in rough country that requires them to be tough, self-reliant and highly mobile – and this makes them an attractive adventurer archetype for anyone who has ever watched a Western or read a Larry McMurtry novel.

[Shiningbrow]

9 minutes ago, AlexS said:

so I would let the Elmali learn ... , Firearrow and Fireblade

I presume that means that they aren't forbidden, not that the cult actually teaches them. After all, you can learn any spirit magic spell (that's not a cult secret, or forbidden) just by finding a teacher.

Edited November 6 by Shiningbrow

[svensson]

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

Too many runes for such a low percentage cult, IMO. 

The opposed rune character traits would make rune lords of Elmal with strong Beast rather anti-social, like Yinkin or Odayla. Is that intentional?

I like your Rune Lords only approach, but that rather increases the gap between old Elmal worship and conversion to Monrogh's syncretic deity.

Beren and Redaylde are to the Elmal Cult what Durev and Orane are to Orlanth and Ernalda, the demigod avatars shaping their deity.

And somewhere in that (and the Yelmalio cult) might be Hyalor, the descendant of Yamsur.

 

Just gonna point out that Pavis, a City God with a far narrower focus than Elmal, has four runes... Earth Man Stasis and Harmony.

Edited November 6 by svensson

[svensson]

On the subject of 'why Yelmalio has Gifts and Geasa and Elmal doesn't'....

Several reasons come to mind:

- The gifts and geasa of the Yelmalio cult are intended to make worshipers more like Yelmalio as a better son to and servant of Yelm. Elmali don't believe that Elmal is a son or servant of Orlanth. They believe that Elmal is a freely sworn man who follows Orlanth because of Orlanth's virtues. He is the socio-religious model of the Honorable Thane, not the more restrictive servant role.

- The Sun Schism took most of Elmal's priesthood into Yelmalio's 'camp' so to speak. This means that the Yelmalions took most of the mystics with them. The Elmal loyalists simply don't have the personnel to be the all-encompassing cult of all warrior males that Yelmalio is, so the Storm loyalists are focusing on the practical side of their god's worship: defense, horsemanship, archery, and providing some minor access to Fire powers.

- Lastly, as the writer I respect the minor role Elmal has in the Storm pantheon. Humakt has more influence and a larger presence in Sartar society than Elmal. That being the case, I felt that it would be no more appropriate for Elmal to have gifts and geasa than it would Eurmal to have them. Although I have to admit that a list of Eurmal geasa would be entertaining reading 😆

Edited November 6 by svensson

[Jeff]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Given his important role in Defending the Stead for Orlanth,  shield is a skill as almost essential along with the (1h) spear. Going along with this, I think he'd also have access to Earth Shield... (or something similar)

Which brings me to Redalda... Ernalda's daughter... which *may* allow access to this spell as an Associate (or, Ernalda could be a direct Associate, as you have for Orlanth anyway). She could have asked her mother for a gift to protect him on his stead-guardings.

One of his most important myths required that Elmal could see through the illusions of Chaos... perhaps a Detect Truth could manage to find a way in (especially since you've got that Rune sitting there doing nothing anyway...)

Is Bow that important? Especially by the time he's Orlanth's Loyal Thane...

Defending the Stead is a "King of Dragon Pass-ism". The Dawn Age myth was that Elmal defended the remnant peoples of Dragon Passs (humans, elves, gold wheel dancers, etc.) from the Darkness long after the other gods disappeared. Elmal was defeated, robbed, and gravely wounded, but he continued to fight against the Darkness until the stars returned to the sky. 

The other elements of that story were created for the needs of that computer game. 

[Geoff R Evil]

Not sure how strong the beast rune should be for Elmal. I even find it strange a steadfast warrior has the movement and change rune as well. In fact possibly there are arguments for stasis over movement? As the immovable defender.

also detect truth is not a spirit magic spell and I don’t think elmal gets it as a rune spell. Oath I can see though.

I am not an elmal pro or agin person, never used the cult, but just based on known lore I feel there is I balance in this cult as it stands. 

[Alex]

If you want a residual but nerfed Elmal -- whether because of the cult's now extreme smallness, or because it was always a second-string organisational shambles -- one approach would be to split it up into several smaller cults.  Maybe as separate deities (Redalda, etc) or maybe just as overlapping shrines and minor temples with not-wholly-compatible rites and memberships.  That way each individual centre ends up as less of an alphabet soup of runes.

[radmonger]

Yelmalio, Defender of the Stead, 

Amongst Orlanthi, a common name for this aspect of Yelmalio is Elmal. Followers rarely correct those who use that name, though they know it is wrong. Yelmalio is the Son of the Son, not the Sun itself.

Following the death of Yelm, his son Yelmalio wandered far and wide from the Imperial Palace where he was born. During that wandering he made many friends and allies, who taught him many tricks of fighting, protection and survival.

On those travels, he met Orlanth, the Storm King. In the way of such stories, initially they fought, but later joined forces to drive off hostile demons of Darkness and Cold. In return, Yelmalio pledged eternal friendship and loyalty. They exchanged shields to seal this pact.

When Orlanth left to resurrect the Sun, his loyal thane Yelmalio was appointed to guard Orlanth's stead. Subcult members know that Yelmalio, after long faithful servide and overcoming many hardships, ultimately broke his pledge of loyalty. Ernalda seduced him, and urged him to claim rule in his own right. Initiates solemnly vow to never do the same.

Temples

The sole temple following this subcult is the Yelmalio temple in Runegate, in Colymar lands. This is a tribally-sponsored temple that trains patrollers for the Colymar clans and their allies, and scouts for the Colymar warband.

Many Yelmalio clan shrines in Sartar and neighbouring lands could be considered to follow this subcult. Though with a shrine, or site, it is hard to make a firm distinction between one subcult and another..

Ranks

Lay, initiate and godtalker as standard. There are no full priests who formally follow this subcult, though two of the priests at the Ruengate temple are sympathetic to it.

The subcult also supports Rune Lords, known as Sun Thanes, who serve as clan champions or in the retinue of tribal kings. Sun Lords may never permanently marry Ernalda initiates. They must end any such marriage on becoming a Sun Thane. This disqualifies them from chiefdom or kingship under the Orlanth Rex rites, although some have served as temporary clan leaders in times of war.

Relation to Other Subcults

The subcult accepts that Yelmalio of the Sun Dome is the true expression of what Yelmalio actually did before Time. They simply hold that what he did represents a moral failure, one they aspire not to fall to. 
Sun Domers consider them young and foolish, destined to either die young or wise up. So far they have not been proven wrong. They are happy to recruit scouts for their own Templar regiments from co-worshippers amongst the surrounding tribes. As in Prax, they rarely enforce strict doctrinal purity on such auxiliaries

Compatible Occupations

warrior (light cavalry): serving member, or veteran, of the Colymar tribal warband or Sun Dome Temple
noble : Horse Thane, patroller and clan diplomat

Magic

Spirit: Coordination(2), Farsee(var), Lightwall(4), Mobility (1), Protection (var)
Forbidden: Lantern
Common: all
Yelmalio: Cats Eye, Cload Clear, Sun Bright, Vision
Orlanth: Shield
Vinga: Fearless
Aldrya: Heal Body
Redaylda: Speak to Horse

The subcult does not grant gifts or enforce geases.
 

Skills

Starting Skills: Ride +15, Orate +10, Scan +20, Cult Lore (Yelmalio) +15, Worship (Yelmalio) +20, Meditate +5
Free: Cult Lore (Yelmalio), Worship (Yelmalio)
Favored: Ride, Sing, 1H Spear, Javelin, Scan

Notes 

All spells are in Red Book of Magic, Elmal and Redaylda are in the Prosopedia.

All Sun Lords publically pledge to undertake a quest to the Hill of Gold in Vanch. Those who fail to do so within a few years of attaining the status are considered to lack in self confidence, and likely lose the loyalty of any men they comman. Historically, most of those who have gone have not returned. And those who have, did so as Light Sons of Yelmalio of the Sun Dome. Neverthess, the subcult mainmtains the belief that one day the right candidate will do better, returning as a hero.

One common theory is that the potential hero must first acquire mastery of Yelmalio's fiery aspect. knowledge of which has been lost at some point during the wars of the Second Age.

[SDLeary]

11 hours ago, Jeff said:

The other elements of that story were created for the needs of that computer game.

I believe that Greg assisted David with the background, or so the story goes.

SDLeary

[svensson]

16 hours ago, Jeff said:

Defending the Stead is a "King of Dragon Pass-ism". The Dawn Age myth was that Elmal defended the remnant peoples of Dragon Passs (humans, elves, gold wheel dancers, etc.) from the Darkness long after the other gods disappeared. Elmal was defeated, robbed, and gravely wounded, but he continued to fight against the Darkness until the stars returned to the sky. 

The other elements of that story were created for the needs of that computer game. 

With respect, @Jeff, on one hand we're calling an aspect of the game a 'game-ism' and on the other we're celebrating the content and anniversary of that same game.

The story of Elmal as presented in KoDP is one of the major inspirations for my version of the Elmal Heresy. I'm fully aware that this is a IMGU thing, but basic tale [and the other myth-quests in KoDP] are a major influence on RQG. I think it would be worthwhile to consider adopting them wholesale. Any discrepancies can simply be called a misinterpretation of the events of Godtime and left at that.

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, svensson said:

With respect, @Jeff, on one hand we're calling an aspect of the game a 'game-ism' and on the other we're celebrating the content and anniversary of that same game.

The story of Elmal as presented in KoDP is one of the major inspirations for my version of the Elmal Heresy. I'm fully aware that this is a IMGU thing, but basic tale [and the other myth-quests in KoDP] are a major influence on RQG. I think it would be worthwhile to consider adopting them wholesale. Any discrepancies can simply be called a misinterpretation of the events of Godtime and left at that.

So for RuneQuest - and this is the RuneQuest forum after all - KoDP was not a particular major influence on the design of RQG.  When we were writing the original RQG core rules, Greg and I did not considered the stories developed for King of Dragon Pass to be a part of "Greg Stafford's Glorantha".  King of Dragon Pass is  - on its own terms - a noncanonical setting. No Sartar, no Saronil, no New Pavis, no Monrogh, no Yelmalio, no Tarkalor, no Lunar Occupation, and no Hero Wars. It is a "What If?" setting. That's not a criticism of KoDP (it is an excellent and unique computer game), but a Dragon Pass without those things is not at all the Dragon Pass of RQ.

 

[Joerg]

30 minutes ago, Jeff said:

King of Dragon Pass is  - on its own terms - a noncanonical setting. No Sartar,

That's the long game, which is if not canonical at least not counter-canonical, up to the point where your clan's tribal King sets off to unite the tribes, and a city is built by someone who was not Sartar (or Wilms). The game ends with the coronation as King of Dragon Pass, which means that there is no way that 

34 minutes ago, Jeff said:

no Saronil, no New Pavis, no Monrogh, no Yelmalio, no Tarkalor, no Lunar Occupation, and no Hero Wars.

even becomes an issue.

 

I think that RQG is highly unlikely to provide any more information on Elmal than a paragraph or three in the upcoming Yelmalio cult and the existing information in the Locaem description in Pegasus Plateau. There won't be official gaming material for the time from Saronil's to Jarosar's reigns (beginning Elmali unrest to betrayal of the Prince) as the plan seems to be to cover the upcoming Hero Wars.

Ultimately, every game of Dragon Pass is non-canonical in its outcome, as is every game taking an active influence on the events of the Hero Wars.

[Jeff]

40 minutes ago, Joerg said:

That's the long game, which is if not canonical at least not counter-canonical, up to the point where your clan's tribal King sets off to unite the tribes, and a city is built by someone who was not Sartar (or Wilms). The game ends with the coronation as King of Dragon Pass, which means that there is no way that 

even becomes an issue.

 

I think that RQG is highly unlikely to provide any more information on Elmal than a paragraph or three in the upcoming Yelmalio cult and the existing information in the Locaem description in Pegasus Plateau. There won't be official gaming material for the time from Saronil's to Jarosar's reigns (beginning Elmali unrest to betrayal of the Prince) as the plan seems to be to cover the upcoming Hero Wars.

Ultimately, every game of Dragon Pass is non-canonical in its outcome, as is every game taking an active influence on the events of the Hero Wars.

The point of departure in KoDP is hundreds of years before the default start of RQ. The point of departure for major event in most Hero Wars era games seems to be around 1630 or so or several years in the future. 

But here's another thing - for Greg and I, Elmal was something of the past. The name is an attempt to answer the question "what did the Orlanthi worship as the Sun god before they encountered the Sun worshiping Pelorians?" This mattered to Greg because he was writing a First Age novel, set over a thousand years before Sartar was founded. Greg answered the question, but also said that thanks to Monrogh, Yelmalio is the Sun God of the hills.

David decided to make a computer game based largely on Greg's EPIC draft, with elements of several Pendragon Pass games. He needed a group of playable myths (which work very different from how Greg described hero quests, but worked much better for David's needs). David and Robin developed out Elmal which gave a broader range of potential stories in the computer game. All that is fine - especially since it was perfectly ok if the computer game didn't line up with what later Dragon Pass is supposed to be, because the whole game is based on the assumption that never happens! 

RQ on the other hand, assumes that Dragon Pass was settled in the manner described in the Dragon Pass book, that Sartar and his dynasty have ruled much of Dragon Pass for over a century, and Sartar works quite differently from what you play in KoDP. So among the key different things:

Yelmalio is the main solar deity in Dragon Pass (and in Sartar)

The Cattle Goddess is identified with Eiritha. Storm Bull, with his great holy site at the Block (easily visible from Boldhome), is Orlanth's Chaos-fighting brother.

The Orlanth Rex cult is led by the Sartar Dynasty, who serve as its priests. There are initiates at the city and tribal level, but this all got brought in as Sartar was doing his thing.

Trade and libraries are far far far more important than presented in KoDP.

There is much more influence and interaction with the Holy Country than presented in KoDP.

 

[radmonger]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Yelmalio is the main solar deity in Dragon Pass (and in Sartar)

 

The problem is the current actual written cult description of Yelmalio is entirely incompatible with living in a clan alongside other Sartarites. You can't be the one guy in the millitia holding a pike, when everyone else has spears. And of course people want to play in the same game as everyone else, not distant cousins somewhere offscreen.

I kind of suspect the pronlem is enirely invisible to you, because you know Glorantha so well it is obvious which rules do not apply, where they make no sense. But for new players learning the setting from a cult writeup, they currently have no basis to make those adjustments to what look like literal game rules.

I guess I could be wrong, and the Solar book will correct the issue? If not, I will stick with the subcult above for everyhere in Sartar outside Sun County 

 

 

 

[Jeff]

9 minutes ago, radmonger said:

The problem is the current actual written cult description of Yelmalio is entirely incompatible with living in a clan alongside other Sartarites. You can't be the one guy in the millitia holding a pike, when everyone else has spears. And of course people want to play in the same game as everyone else, not distant cousins somewhere offscreen.

I kind of suspect the pronlem is enirely invisible to you, because you know Glorantha so well it is obvious which rules do not apply, where they make no sense. But for new players learning the setting from a cult writeup, they currently have no basis to make those adjustments to what look like literal game rules.

I guess I could be wrong, and the Solar book will correct the issue? If not, I will stick with the subcult above for everyhere in Sartar outside Sun County 

 

 

 

If you have your campaign centered entirely on the life of a single clan, that tends to restrict cult options. The wider you want the array of playable cults, the broader you should let them go. If you have players that want to play a group that includes Orlanth, Yelmalio, Eurmal, Babeester Gor, and Argan Argar (for example), then base them in Clearwine or surrounding areas. Or in Boldhome. Or in Wilmskirk.  

Alternatively, you might pick a Sartarite clan and have the odd Yelmalion be someone tied by marriage. Or someone who is torn between his loyalty to the tribe and the Sun Dome temple. Alternatively, people hire mercenaries - and Yelmalions are perfectly happy to fight for pay.

Unlike in KoDP, the clans in Sartar have plenty of overlapping interaction. Members of many different clans live in each of the cities, gather at the larger temples (especially the minor cults which are too small for each village to support), and so on.

So if I have a game set among the Varmandi, for example, the main local cults are Orlanth and Ernalda. But there is no reason we might not have a Yelmalion player character associated with the cult at Runegate or Jonstown or the Sun Dome Temple. Similarly we might have a Lhankor Mhy initiate who regularly travels to Jonstown, or an Issaries cultist who does the same.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

The problem is the current actual written cult description of Yelmalio is entirely incompatible with living in a clan alongside other Sartarites. You can't be the one guy in the millitia holding a pike, when everyone else has spears. And of course people want to play in the same game as everyone else, not distant cousins somewhere offscreen.

As I understand it, Yelmalio's favored weapons are Bow, Javelin, 1H or 2H Spear and Pike. They might even fight as a mounted archer.

A Pike phalanx is a very specialized unit, and outside it, a Yelmalion would prefer to use the other favored weapons, and fight in a manner compatible with their Orlanthi neighbors and kin. There are many situations where a pike phalanx isn't used even by Sun Domers, as it requires a particular terrain to function successfully. If you want to play a worshiper of Yelmalio and a clan has a percentage of his worshipers, then there isn't an issue. 

[g33k]

Idle question -- what's the  minimum number of people to create an effective pike "formation"?

I assume you can get away with just 20 or so -- 3 rows of 6, a couple of reservists to step in as people fall -- to block a 15' gate or other chokepoint (thus ignoring the issue of flanks, rear, etc).

Or do you really need more than 3 ranks... Is 4 ranks the minimum?  5 ranks? And is 6-wide enough for a 15' span?

[M Helsdon]

24 minutes ago, g33k said:

Idle question -- what's the  minimum number of people to create an effective pike "formation"?

A pike phalanx is a battlefield formation, not easily deployed with a small number of troops. It basically depends on the tactical situation, as a pike formation needs other troops on its flanks. 

Historically, a Macedonian phalanx consisted of several battalions, each of 16 files of 16 men, for a total of 256 in each unit. In its earliest form it consisted of ten files of ten men, not unlike Renaissance pike squares.

For an RQG setting, you might assume a smaller unit, with fewer files, but given the length of a sarissa/pikes it might need some hand waving. You'll find Renaissance fighting manuals showing single combat with one of the combatants using a pike, but they are not ideal weapons for this.

Pikes can be used in other ways - as in length they are not unlike the 'ship spears' used to defend a beached ship - and in siege warfare to stab down at attackers.

Edited November 7 by M Helsdon

[g33k]

14 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

...

For an RQG setting, you might assume a smaller unit, with fewer files, but given the length of a sarissa/pikes it might need some hand waving. You'll find Renaissance fighting manuals showing single combat with one of the combatants using a pike, but they are not ideal weapons for this...

Yeah; there's some specialized phalanx rules in RQG... but I don't think I've ever heard of them being used at the table (and I'd frankly expect any such  use to be entirely a "try-out / show-off the rules" effort, not likely to arise organically in PC-oriented play...  Not much of an adventurers' weapon, at all.

That said, I can imagine a non-wandering city/militia/community campaign, where the phalanx actually did become PC-relevant.

Edited November 7 by g33k

[M Helsdon]

18 minutes ago, g33k said:

Yeah; there's some specialized phalanx rules in RQG... but I don't think I've ever heard of them being used at the table (and I'd frankly expect any such  use to be entirely a "try-out / show-off the rules" effort, not likely to arise organically in PC-oriented play...  Not much of an adventurers' weapon, at all.

This is off-I'd topic so I'd just note that the RQG phalanx rules are perhaps intended for when PCs are fighting in a portion of a larger formation or in a very restrictive environment such as a tunnel or a city street. A Yelmalion pike formation is a bit more complex, with the pikemen 'wearing' their shield on their left shoulder whilst they grasp their pike in both hands. Historically a phalanx, be it of Greek hoplites or Sumerian spearmen, typically used spears, though you can also imagine it as a shield wall with the combatants using a variety of weapons, side-by-side.

The restrictive nature of a pike phalanx is why a Yelmalion will have other weapons such as a spear or bow, because you can't go foraging with a 16ft pike. I expect that even in a Sun Dome regiment the Yelmalions train to use the god's other favored weapons. A few Yelmalions in a clan militia will probably use spears and bows.

Edited November 7 by M Helsdon