Question about improving skills over 100%

[Deepest_Lore]

Hello everyone. My long running RQ:G game is going well. So well in fact that my players are starting to into natural skill values over 100%. But with this comes a question. the example given on page 416 of RQ:G about Vishi Dunn increasing his Spirit Combat skill has be a bit confused. Is the players skill category modifier subtracted from it's unmodified natural value and the resulting number the target for improving? Or is the probability of improvement always set to 100% and then the skill category modifier subtracted from that?

To put it another way if a player has say small shield skill at 110 unmodified natural skill value, with a 20% modifier in the appropriate skill category is their probabiuity of seccusiong a small shield improvement check 110%-20% for a total of 90%?

[Deepest_Lore]

Hello, my RQ game is going well. So well my players are starting to get natural skill values over 100%. But now I have a question about improving them over 100%. On page 461 of RG:Q  the example about Vishi Dunn improving his Spirit Combat skill over a hundred as me confused. Is his probability of improvement calculated by subtracting his natural skill value from his category modifier or by subtracting his natural skill value form a flat 100%? I ask because the example is little too close in terms of numbers to where i could see it being a typo.

Put another way: Is a player with a natural 110% in Small Shields and a 20% modifier in the appropriate skill category calculating their chances of getting a skill improvement check by subtracting their natural skill of 110% from their category modifier of 20%? Thus equaling 90% (110%-20%=90%)? Or is the chance arrived at by subtracting their category modifier from a flat 100%? Thus in this scenario making it 80%  (100%-20%=80%)

Thanks!

Edit: Double post by mistake. I thought it had deleted the first post and re typed it.

Edited November 9 by Deepest_Lore
Clarification.

[Ludo Bagman]

You roll a D100 and add your modifier, and every result of 100 or higher leads to an improvement. That's why high modifiers are needed to improve your skill above 100%.

If the character has +10% (like Vishi Dunn), a roll of 90 or higher is needed, so the chance of improvement is actually 11%.

If the character has +20% (like in your example), a roll of 80 or higher is needed, so the chance of improvement is 21%.

If the character has no modifier or a negative modifier, only the 100 in the D100 roll leads to an improvement (according to my reading of the rule), so the chance of improvement is only 1%.

Edited November 7 by Ludo Bagman

[Jens]

You roll percentile dice, and then add the category modifier to the roll. If the final result is greater than the skill, or 100 or more, the skill improves. This means that with a modifier of 20% you succeed on a roll of 80 or more, even if your skill is well over 100%.

[PhilHibbs]

On 11/7/2024 at 7:39 AM, Ludo Bagman said:

If the character has no modifier or a negative modifier, only the 100 in the D100 roll leads to an improvement (according to my reading of the rule), so the chance of improvement is only 1%.

Negative modifiers make it impossible to go over 100%.

*EDIT* I'm wrong. A natural 00 always increases.

Edited November 9 by PhilHibbs

[Kloster]

On 11/7/2024 at 9:54 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Negative modifiers make it impossible to go over 100%

An unmodified roll of 100 always give an experience raise (RQG P416: Further, if the adventurer has a negative skills category modifier, they cannot improve much beyond 100% in any of the skills within that category without extraordinary effort, though a result of 100 always merits improvement.)

Edited November 9 by Kloster
remove extraneous <CR>

[Aurelius]

I don't understand ... because I don't know what people mean with skill here, but just to super clarify...

 - My actual chance to hit an enemy in battle is 90%. 
 - That means my skill is 90? 
 - If my skill group modifier is +10.... I have to roll 81+ with the dice to increase my skill?

(And some people will write 80 in their character sheets and others write 90).

Right?

[Shiningbrow]

10 minutes ago, Aurelius said:

I don't understand ... because I don't know what people mean with skill here, but just to super clarify...

 - My actual chance to hit an enemy in battle is 90%. 
 - That means my skill is 90? 
 - If my skill group modifier is +10.... I have to roll 81+ with the dice to increase my skill?

(And some people will write 80 in their character sheets and others write 90).

Right?

Correct...

some people do this.... others do it that..... 😛

(also meaning - you certainly aren't the first person to be confused by this)

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Aurelius said:

I don't understand ... because I don't know what people mean with skill here, but just to super clarify...

 - My actual chance to hit an enemy in battle is 90%. 
 - That means my skill is 90? 
 - If my skill group modifier is +10.... I have to roll 81+ with the dice to increase my skill?

(And some people will write 80 in their character sheets and others write 90).

There are two approaches, and it depends on an interpretation of whether skill includes or does not include the category bonus.

Option 1: the skill level is the skill % + the category bonus % (which is what you've reflected here)

• Actual chance to hit (skill level) is 90%.
• Skill level = Weapon skill @80% + Manipulation bonus @+10%
• To gain experience, you roll and add the category bonus.
• The result must be above the Skill level. I.e. you need 81+ in order for the bonus to put you higher than 90%. 

Option 2: the skill level is the skill % (this is what I've always used in my games as my game sessions don't occur frequently enough to be an issue)

• Actual chance to hit (skill level) is 90%
• Skill level = Weapon skill @80% + Manipulation bonus @+10%
• To gain experience, you roll and add the category bonus.
• The result must be above the Weapon skill (excluding the bonus). I.e. you need 71+ in order for the bonus to put you higher than 80%

If you're running games weekly and checking experience after each session, you probably want option 1 so that PC's don't advance too quickly (but you will max out sooner). If you're running games less frequently or only checking experience once per season, you may prefer Option 2.

[PhilHibbs]

8 hours ago, Aurelius said:

I don't understand ... because I don't know what people mean with skill here, but just to super clarify...

 - My actual chance to hit an enemy in battle is 90%. 
 - That means my skill is 90? 
 - If my skill group modifier is +10.... I have to roll 81+ with the dice to increase my skill?

(And some people will write 80 in their character sheets and others write 90).

Right?

Correct. As far as the rules are concerned, your skill ALWAYS includes the modifier. Base + culture + occupation + cult + choices + category modifier + experience = current skill.

Roll to increase by rolling dice, add category modifier, and if you get over your skill or over 99 you get an increase. A natural 00 always increases if category modifier is negative.

Some people write down their skill WITHOUT category modifier, the benefit being that if your characteristics change (POW going up and down, mostly) then you don't need to rub out and rewrite an entire category of skill values. When rolling to increase, you roll over the numeber written down on the sheet, or if your skill is very high then within your category modifier of 100 (i.e. 90 or more if your cat mod is +10). This is mathematically the same.

Some people double-dip on the modifier, by writing down the skill without modifier, then rolling and adding the modifier to increase. That leads to much faster skill progression, which is fine as a house rule if that's what your group wants.

Edited November 9 by PhilHibbs

[Aurelius]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

If you're running games weekly and checking experience after each session, you probably want option 1 so that PC's don't advance too quickly (but you will max out sooner). If you're running games less frequently or only checking experience once per season, you may prefer Option 2.

Option 1 is RAW — right?

I like option 2 though. I’ve never ever heard anyone complain that character advancement was too fast in RQ. 

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Option 2: the skill level is the skill % (this is what I've always used in my games as my game sessions don't occur frequently enough to be an issue)

• Actual chance to hit (skill level) is 90%
• Skill level = Weapon skill @80% + Manipulation bonus @+10%
• To gain experience, you roll and add the category bonus.
• The result must be above the Weapon skill (excluding the bonus). I.e. you need 71+ in order for the bonus to put you higher than 80%

This is what I referred to as "double-dipping", right? A much higher chance of increasing skills if you have a bonus.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Aurelius said:

Option 1 is RAW — right?

Here's the RAW wording: 

To make an experience roll, a player rolls D100 for each ability check and then adds the appropriate skills category modifier for that ability to the roll. If the roll, as modified by the appropriate skills category modifier, is higher than the adventurer’s current skill ability, the adventurer improves their rating in that skill.

The text does not state whether "skill ability" includes or excludes the skills category modifier. In fact, it appears to be the only place in the text that uses the term "skill ability". While it may be stated one way or another in the Errata, you can interpret RAW to support either option.

As a GM, I've used Option 2 since RQ2 days and have never found it an issue. 

Edited November 9 by jajagappa

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Here's the RAW wording: 

To make an experience roll, a player rolls D100 for each ability check and then adds the appropriate skills category modifier for that ability to the roll. If the roll, as modified by the appropriate skills category modifier, is higher than the adventurer’s current skill ability, the adventurer improves their rating in that skill.

The text does not state whether "skill ability" includes or excludes the skills category modifier. In fact, it appears to be the only place in the text that uses the term "skill ability". While it may be stated one way or another in the Errata, you can interpret RAW to support either option.

During character creation, you add your category modifier. Nowhere do you ever remove it for any reason. Interpreting “skill ability” as “skill minus category modifier” is inventing a new rule from whole cloth.

[jajagappa]

49 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

During character creation, you add your category modifier. Nowhere do you ever remove it for any reason. Interpreting “skill ability” as “skill minus category modifier” is inventing a new rule from whole cloth.

That's your choice. 

Since I began play with RQ2, the category modifier has always existed independently on the character sheet and is added to the skill when calculating results. 

As it says in RQG, p.57 "Once determined, add the skills category modifiers to the base chances for the skills listed on the adventurer sheet which have a base chance greater than zero."  Since the category modifier can and does change, for me that statement simply means adding the bonus to the skill chance during play (i.e. when rolling results) and is not inventing anything from whole cloth. You can interpret differently.

[PhilHibbs]

15 hours ago, jajagappa said:

That's your choice. 

It's a choice how you write it on your sheet.

15 hours ago, jajagappa said:

As it says in RQG, p.57 "Once determined, add the skills category modifiers to the base chances for the skills listed on the adventurer sheet which have a base chance greater than zero."  Since the category modifier can and does change, for me that statement simply means adding the bonus to the skill chance during play (i.e. when rolling results) and is not inventing anything from whole cloth. You can interpret differently.

My point is that the rules are clear that any time a skill value is used, the category modifier is part of the skill. That's not a choice, any deviation from that is a house rule. Which is fine, so long as we are clear about it.

[jajagappa]

17 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

My point is that the rules are clear that any time a skill value is used, the category modifier is part of the skill. That's not a choice, any deviation from that is a house rule. Which is fine, so long as we are clear about it.

That's a semantic interpretation. You read it one way, I read it another. Whether you call it a house rule is immaterial to my games. 

I presented an Option that others can decide to ignore or use that has served me and my players fine over many years.

[PhilHibbs]

40 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

That's a semantic interpretation. You read it one way, I read it another. Whether you call it a house rule is immaterial to my games. 

It's material to this thread, and the question that @Deepest_Lore asked. I don't see where the sematics are. What is the "it" that you read that leads to Option 2?

[jajagappa]

4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

What is the "it" that you read that leads to Option 2?

Already mentioned above: the adventurer’s current skill ability. My reading says that does not include the category modifier.

But at this point, I've stated how I derive it, you've stated how you do. We don't agree so that's not going to help the OP further.

[Shiningbrow]

I think it's fairly obvious - especially in the last few posts from some VERY experienced RQ gamers - that there is a LOT of ambiguity in this. (I'll also say, I'm confused by it as well... and I've also been a gamer since I was a kid... many decades ago... and have played many other RPGs as well).

 

Now, if only there was a way to resolve this ambiguity, say, by clearly defining and separating the usages of a couple of terms...

 

But, oh, no.... that's not possible in this universe... so, woe is us. Perhaps in some other hypothetical universe....

[jajagappa]

28 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I think it's fairly obvious - especially in the last few posts from some VERY experienced RQ gamers - that there is a LOT of ambiguity in this.

Despite the ambiguity/differences, the net result is whether skill advancement occurs slightly faster or slightly slower and disappears once you've reaching 100% ability.

[Alex]

 

[jajagappa]

Quote

Please note that the starter set clarifies this process.

Looks like the ambiguity is resolved there, and that I've effectively branched into a House Rule (but a well-tested one as it's what I've used consistently since the late 80s).

[PhilHibbs]

For comparison, in the RQ2 and RQ3 days, the rules were even more clear.

RQ2 (which used INT instead of category modifier, and reversed the die roll):

Quote

To see if a character has learned from experience, subtract
his current chance to hit from 100. If the character has INT over
average (13-18), add 3 to this result for every point over 12. This
quantity or less must be rolled on D100. A successful roll means
the character’s chance has increased by 5%. ...
...a character’s %
chance of learning from experience (the number his player must
roll or less on D100) can never be less than his INT.

RQ3:

Quote

The experience roll is a D100 die roll. If the result of
an experience roll is higher than the adventurer's cur-
rent percentage for that skill, then the experience roll
succeeds. Add the appropriate skills category modi-
fier to the roll before determining whether the experi-
ence roll succeeded.

...If an adventurer is
100% or better in a skill, his player must roll over 100
on a D100 to succeed at an experience roll - remember
that the adventurer's skills category modifier can
boost the D100 result to over 100.

So the current "100 or more" rule is a change from "over 100" in RQ3. Plus, category modifiers tend to be somewhat higher in RQG, so progression is already faster than it was, in addition to skills starting substantially higher.

I write this not to "flog a dead zebra", but to present context for those considering what rules to adopt in their game.

I would consider Option 2, but it would complicate the process for most of my players, who write their skills including modifier. "Subtract the modifier from your skill, roll the dice, add the modifier to the dice, compare to the number you got earlier", that would have one of my players in tears!

[Alex]

28 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Looks like the ambiguity is resolved there, and that I've effectively branched into a House Rule (but a well-tested one as it's what I've used consistently since the late 80s).

It certainly seems like something that'll be pretty robust to tweaking.  (As has been commented, 'game balance' is at most a very relative concept in RQ -- the game that eventually countered the effects of Axe Trance by...  adding Sword Trance!)  In fact the BRP book especially would ideally cover various options overall for this.  (Faster or slower advancement overall, at the higher end, and so on.)  Of course we also have GM boor for RQ itself upcoming...