All Myths are True

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 10/23/2024 at 3:20 PM, Alex said:

If someone else proves something apparently contradictory as true-for-them, it doesn't necessarily -- and indeed in thr first instance is pretty unlikely to -- mean that it'd negate the FHQ's take and proof for herself, and for her people.

Gloranthan Myth as modern day politics?

"All myths are true", when taken literally, not symbolically, leads to madness...

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Gloranthan Myth as modern day politics?

"All myths are true", when taken literally, not symbolically, leads to madness...

"All myths are true" is not the same as "all stories are true". That's a VERY important distinction in Glorantha. All myths - that is stories of the gods or spirits that have been experienced or witness - are true. Orlanth killed Yelm - we all experience that every day, and the initiates of Orlanth (and Yelm) can see it in greater detail. That's not just a story, it is something experienced and witnessed. It is true, even if some of the stories of it contradict each other in minor details.

There is an underlying structure to Gloranthan mythology that is revealed by individual myths. If I tell the myth that Orlanth killed the Emperor part of Yelm - and that Yelm himself then self-destructed in shock and horror at the deed - that can be true. But so is the myth that Orlanth slew Yelm with Death. So is the myth that Orlanth was just one of several deeds that participated in the deed (admittedly the one who administered the final killing blow) - as are the myths that Orlanth acted alone. All of these are consistent with the core structure of the God Time and all are true.

But if I tell a story how Yelm killed Orlanth, that story is not something anyone can experience or witness, except through Illusion (which after all is the art of temporary reality).  That's a fiction, not a myth. If it were true, there would be no setting of the Sun, and the world would be without seasons or Time.

 

[Eff]

46 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Gloranthan Myth as modern day politics?

"All myths are true", when taken literally, not symbolically, leads to madness...

It certainly does. For example, it can cause you to believe that it is visibly obvious that the Sun rises and sets because of the weather, rather than that being a kind of paradigmatic assumption derived from other knowledge. But of course, myths in their strictest and narrowest sense are stories of origins- "how did this come to be?"

And in that way they frequently attempt to explain "why", rather than "how", which makes their truthfulness somewhat secondary. Does the wind shove the Sun down into Hell each night? Or is it that refusing to be generous and to share your wealth with your kin is what nearly destroyed the world? Is it that rulers only have the right to rule because of their ongoing actions, their willingness to work to provide justice and fairness for the people? Is it that vengeance and retribution are understandable desires but will ultimately kill you if you give in to them? 

Maybe it's that becoming fully a person, fully grown, able to stand on your own, means being able to stand apart from your family with friends by your side.

[Alex]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

"All myths are true", when taken literally, not symbolically, leads to madness...

What's worse, to a whole shedload of runemagic!

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, Eff said:

Does the wind shove the Sun down into Hell each night?

If you look at Godtime, the Sun Emperor gets slain at noon, and the afternoon is the dismembered Bijiif descending into Hell while Antirius is supposed to stay in the noon position. All that rising from the east stuff shouldn't happen at all, although Black Dendara sort of carved that route for her ashpile husband in Hell. If there is any Storm agency in the diurnal cycle, it is hidden and mystical. (Really, if there was, the cycle would be a hell of a lot less reliable.)

[Alex]

On 10/26/2024 at 7:50 AM, Joerg said:

If you look at Godtime, the Sun Emperor gets slain at noon, and the afternoon is the dismembered Bijiif descending into Hell while Antirius is supposed to stay in the noon position. All that rising from the east stuff shouldn't happen at all, although Black Dendara sort of carved that route for her ashpile husband in Hell.

That's very much the "Solara Tempora" understanding of Time, which granted is likely very much the dominant one post the Unity Council.  (And even moreso post GLers, and even even more post-RQG, and its retrenchment to more of a The True Turn Towards Truth approach, for likely overall sensible playability purposes.)  But for an old-school Yelmic perspective it's all in the same "YS" continuum, so no big deal, right?

On 10/26/2024 at 7:50 AM, Joerg said:

If there is any Storm agency in the diurnal cycle, it is hidden and mystical. (Really, if there was, the cycle would be a hell of a lot less reliable.)

I think one can say that Storm 'acts' to cause the rising and setting -- though I think it's seen as killing and resurrecting, not as blowing the sun around like a blow-football exercise.  And the entire nature of the Compromise -- at least per the dominant understanding, as above -- is that the gods in general have no agency as such at all.  They lack Free Will, as a concept or indeed a gamestat.  Or if you prefer, they could exercise choice...  but the result would be a giant chaos gash in the cosmos, so they do not.

One might regard this as having been brought about by negotiations somewhat like a scene from a Douglas Adams script.  "i insist on regular Emperor-slaying!"  "Very well, you barbarian brute, if you must!  But only if you're very regular indeed -- I insist on precise punctuality.  Buserian, show him the timetable."

[PaulJW]

On 10/25/2024 at 7:20 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

"All myths are true", when taken literally, not symbolically, leads to madness...

Perhaps it might be better to say "All myths contain truth".  By that I mean that myths may or may not reflect a precise telling of a literally true series of factual events.  Rather that they contain significant truths concerning the nature of things.  In other words, they tell a story that is reflective of an important truth (albeit, potentially, just one perspective on an important truth).  That 'truth' has significance - both spiritually and, often, in terms of cultural identity, in terms of defining oneself, and in attaining a perspective on your world that makes some kind of sense.

[Alex]

On 10/30/2024 at 10:34 AM, PaulJW said:

Perhaps it might be better to say "All myths contain truth".  By that I mean that myths may or may not reflect a precise telling of a literally true series of factual events.  Rather that they contain significant truths concerning the nature of things.

Yes, that's probably a reasonable statement of the 'religious truth' or the 'psychological truth' as we'd see it in the modern secular-dominated world.  But hey-hey-hey look, we're RPGnerding here!  Thus by "myths" we really mean, to crudely paraphrase Jeff's excellent and nuanced earlier answer, "stories you can get rune magic from".  And what do we mean, to wax Hitchhiker's again, by "are true"?  Well, if you look at the concrete examples @davecake and I were discussing, it's things like "If i do Divination, what does the deity say?", "if i'm an initiate of <X> and I pitch up at a temple of <Y>, do I fully participate in the mysteries?", and "what magic does <Z> grant?"

So in other words , this postmodernist commie liberal froth-sounding statement "all myths are true" is basically just saying, that all stories that give you rune magic are, in a shocking plot twist, stories that give you rune magic.  And on that bombshell!

BTW, even if you want a completely reductive explanation -- not just this "it's complicated"/"a numinous and ineffable mystery" stuff -- I don't think that's at all hard to reconcile with Chaosium's statements on the matter.  (Or indeed to what I said that got this somewhat oblique response.)  But as I don't really want that, I'm happy to skip those, at least for this post.

[John Biles]

5 hours ago, Alex said:

 

So in other words , this postmodernist commie liberal froth-sounding statement "all myths are true" is basically just saying, that all stories that give you rune magic are, in a shocking plot twist, stories that give you rune magic.  And on that bombshell!
 

I'm gong to disagree.

What 'all myths are true' means is that there are contradictory myths in the Godtime, even ones which actively deny or just ignore each other's premises.

The Green Age is a critical part of the evolution of the age of myths in Peloria and Dragon Pass.  In the Eastern Islands, no such concept exists and you have a system of 'World Cycles'.

The Invisible God is central to the evolution of everything for the Westerners, and most people in Dragon Pass have no idea who that is, or assume it's Eurmal up to no good.

The Great Compromise was enabled by this.

Without it, the gods could not have united to save the world.

Not every possible truth exists in the Godtime, but there are a lot of contradictory ones.

 

 

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, Alex said:

“All myths are true” is basically just saying, that all stories that give you rune magic are, in a shocking plot twist, stories that give you rune magic.

2 hours ago, John Biles said:

What “all myths are true” means is that there are contradictory myths in the Godtime, even ones which actively deny or just ignore each other’s premises.

This is the crux of it. Either we say “‘true’ doesn’t mean true” just so we can carry on saying “all myths are true” or we say “no, ‘true’ means true, else why bother?” (There are disagreements within the disjuncts as well as between them.)

But if a myth is supposed to be an event in God Time (as well as the story recounting that event), then of course the God Time does not “contain contradictions” — that is the story asserting that the event happened and the story asserting that it did not are not both true; the event didn’t both happen (somewhere at some time) and fail to happen (anywhere at any time). ¬(p ∧ ¬p)

Spoiler

In one city on one day, one might find two productions of Medea — one in which she departs in her dragon-drawn chariot and one in which she does not — but there is no contradiction in that.

Perhaps it is raining in Spain today but not in London, but we don’t then say, “It is raining and it is not raining — contradictions everywhere!”

So why do we persist in this “contradictions are true” nonsense, when no one has the slightest idea what it means? Is it just that “true” is a prestige word even for those who care nothing for what is true and what is not? “My truth.” “Alternative facts.” Isn’t there enough of that IRL? No need to drag it into game worlds. What is to be gained by it that we wouldn’t get from a simple “no one knows which of these myths is true — perhaps neither is true”?

[AndreJarosch]

12 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

This is the crux of it. Either we say “‘true’ doesn’t mean true” just so we can carry on saying “all myths are true” or we say “no, ‘true’ means true, else why bother?” (There are disagreements within the disjuncts as well as between them.)

SNIP

So why do we persist in this “contradictions are true” nonsense, when no one has the slightest idea what it means? Is it just that “true” is a prestige word even for those who care nothing for what is true and what is not? “My truth.” “Alternative facts.” Isn’t there enough of that IRL? No need to drag it into game worlds. What is to be gained by it that we wouldn’t get from a simple “no one knows which of these myths is true — perhaps neither is true”?

For the gods tiny details, which seem to be important to humans, makes no difference. 

Humakt is Orlanths brother: true 

Humakt is the non-storm death/fighting aspekt when Umath broke into aspects, as Orlanth is the weather/storm aspekt of him: true

Humakt is the sword Orlanth used: true 

In a cosmological sense it doesn´t make a difference, it only does in the mind of humans that have to put gods, their powers etc. in categories, and make human like. 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

This is the crux of it. Either we say “‘true’ doesn’t mean true” just so we can carry on saying “all myths are true” or we say “no, ‘true’ means true, else why bother?” (There are disagreements within the disjuncts as well as between them.)

But if a myth is supposed to be an event in God Time (as well as the story recounting that event), then of course the God Time does not “contain contradictions” — that is the story asserting that the event happened and the story asserting that it did not are not both true; the event didn’t both happen (somewhere at some time) and fail to happen (anywhere at any time). ¬(p ∧ ¬p)

  Reveal hidden contents

In one city on one day, one might find two productions of Medea — one in which she departs in her dragon-drawn chariot and one in which she does not — but there is no contradiction in that.

Perhaps it is raining in Spain today but not in London, but we don’t then say, “It is raining and it is not raining — contradictions everywhere!”

So why do we persist in this “contradictions are true” nonsense, when no one has the slightest idea what it means? Is it just that “true” is a prestige word even for those who care nothing for what is true and what is not? “My truth.” “Alternative facts.” Isn’t there enough of that IRL? No need to drag it into game worlds. What is to be gained by it that we wouldn’t get from a simple “no one knows which of these myths is true — perhaps neither is true”?

I suspect part of the problem here is you are looking at myths as being either facts or simple stories, rather than experiences of the God Time. Those experiences are real and true. Contrary to years of fan speculation, you cannot simply make stuff up or simply impose your will on the God Time. There is an architecture and structure to it. So I experience Orlanth killing Yelm with Death - that experience, that myth, is true. But you might experience Yelm's outrage and self-disintegration because a gaggle of Rebel Gods killed Murharzarm with Death - that experience, that myth, is true. Both myths, despite their many small contradictions, are true and both show something important and powerful in Glorantha.

[svensson]

Myths are NEVER empirically 'true'.

Myths are parables, the stories worshipers tell each other to emphasize the virtues of their beliefs. The whole point of HeroQuesting is to interact with Godtime myths and gain an understanding of the underlying cosmological truths of the stories. The closest a myth ever gets to being 'true' is, as the RQ Rumors Table puts it,

'Mostly true with substantial misinformation or untrue elements'

But that's way better than 'Too terrible to contemplate', isn't it? 🙃

Edited November 5, 2024 by svensson

[Eff]

Of course, one difficulty with "myths are experiences of the godtime" is that it doesn't really offer much for playing with mythology as force that affects the temporal world. On the one hand, myths are purely experiential and subjective, and so interacting with them cannot offer any more information about the world outside of the participant's head. Thus, mythology in play cannot be interacted with in order to learn things or resolve questions. 

But on the other hand, myths adhere to an immutable structure, and cannot be made to deviate from that structure, and so interacting with them cannot produce a change in the mythology and any kind of change in the world from that. Thus, mythology in play cannot be interacted with in order to effect changes on the material world.

So what, then, is the point of interacting with mythology in play?

[Ali the Helering]

Knowing my areas of interest, a lecturer in the Hebrew Scriptures asked me: "The Ark Narrative; truth or myth?"

I replied "Myth, and therefore true."  He applauded.

[jajagappa]

45 minutes ago, Eff said:

So what, then, is the point of interacting with mythology in play?

I think this is a topic to spin off into a new thread as we've wandered off into the Godtime and away from Dragon Pass.

 

[Alex]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I think this is a topic to spin off into a new thread as we've wandered off into the Godtime and away from Dragon Pass.

I think we're about three spinoff tangents deep at this point.

[Jeff]

8 hours ago, svensson said:

Myths are NEVER empirically 'true'.

Myths are parables, the stories worshipers tell each other to emphasize the virtues of their beliefs. The whole point of HeroQuesting is to interact with Godtime myths and gain an understanding of the underlying cosmological truths of the stories. The closest a myth ever gets to being 'true' is, as the RQ Rumors Table puts it,

'Mostly true with substantial misinformation or untrue elements'

But that's way better than 'Too terrible to contemplate', isn't it? 🙃

I'd suggest reading Greg's forward to the Mythology book to get a better feel for what the authors (Greg and I) think makes a myth true.

[svensson]

43 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I'd suggest reading Greg's forward to the Mythology book to get a better feel for what the authors (Greg and I) think makes a myth true.

I have read it and that was my distilled thought on it.

But I'll read it again. It's not like I never miss anything on the first pass.

I also think that a lot of my thinking on mythology, parables, and morals is very Joseph Campbell-esque. The Hero Of A Thousand Faces and The Power of Myth, and so on.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

I think we're about three spinoff tangents deep at this point.

You mean the digression of the segue about the interruption of the sidebar?

You know, like we ALWAYS do 😆

[Alex]

1 minute ago, svensson said:

You mean the digression of the segue about the interruption of the sidebar?

You know, like we ALWAYS do 😆

Not so sure about the segue step!  More like handbrake turns at each step...

Though there is a DJ in these parts that has a feature called "the Awesome Seg" where the awesomeness of the 'gue might be...  deliberately questionable!

[Alex]

13 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

But if a myth is supposed to be an event in God Time (as well as the story recounting that event), then of course the God Time does not “contain contradictions” — that is the story asserting that the event happened and the story asserting that it did not are not both true; the event didn’t both happen (somewhere at some time) and fail to happen (anywhere at any time). ¬(p ∧ ¬p)

Let's recall that the 'all myths are true' aphorism was mentioned here as a response to a suggestion of mine about the specific situation in Glorantha regarding the FHQ, Dendera, Ernalda, La-Ungariant, their cults, rites and magic.  i.e. about two handbrake thread turns ago.  Not any sort of Lacanesque or Derridaish statement about the nature of truth, etc, dragging in RW politics, etc.  "Dendera = La-Ungariant ∧ Ernalda = La-Ungariant ∧ ¬(Dendera = Ernalda), ahahahaha, suck it up, STEMlords, cultural relativism FTW!!!" was very much not what I was saying.  (I have a STEMlord union card of my own to keep in good standing, for one thing.)  I specifically was commenting on the "what might happen in the objectively observable by mundane means Everything World of Glorantha" aspects.  End of.

13 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Is it just that “true” is a prestige word even for those who care nothing for what is true and what is not?

Probably, but to be fair, the concept of "truth" also considerably predates new-fangled frameworks like "formal logic" and "science".  If we're gonna get into a debate about what does or doesn't belong in a game about bronze-age myth...  Sure, i was similarly enraged when I read The White Goddess and Graves was busking exactly this sort of nonsense...  but one learns to live with it.  Like road rage, if it's gonna keep happening anyway, better not to let your endocrine system keep getting churned up by it.

13 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

What is to be gained by it that we wouldn’t get from a simple “no one knows which of these myths is true — perhaps neither is true”?

It's not for me to advise Chaosium on their comms, but were they to say that, i'd imagine that'd  also be met with exasperated noises, and followups like "so, it's a YGWV thing -- which is true in the Chaosium house campaign, then?"  And it doesn't really gibe with the existing metamyth.  Short of declaring those post-canonical, too.

Quote

“Which past?”
“Like all of them.”
The dead wept bitter dregs at that, for they were there because all things could not exist at once.

[Ormi Phengaria]

On 11/5/2024 at 4:28 AM, mfbrandi said:

So why do we persist in this “contradictions are true” nonsense, when no one has the slightest idea what it means? Is it just that “true” is a prestige word even for those who care nothing for what is true and what is not? “My truth.” “Alternative facts.” Isn’t there enough of that IRL? No need to drag it into game worlds. What is to be gained by it that we wouldn’t get from a simple “no one knows which of these myths is true — perhaps neither is true”?

If anything, we don't have nearly enough of it IRL, provided you aren't mistaking the diversity of perspectives this represents with simple insincerity.

[PaulJW]

On 11/5/2024 at 3:42 AM, Alex said:

So in other words , this postmodernist commie liberal froth-sounding statement "all myths are true" is basically just saying, that all stories that give you rune magic are, in a shocking plot twist, stories that give you rune magic. 

Except that Malkioni myths are true but they don't give you rune magic.  Therefore whether or not a myth grants rune magic is not the essence of its 'truth' but, rather, just one potential product of it.

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

provided you aren’t mistaking the diversity of perspectives this represents with simple insincerity

• Diversity of perspectives is good.
• I am not saying, “My favourite myth is true, but your favourite myth is false.”
• I am saying that if I said, “My favourite myth is both true and false,” you would probably think I had taken leave of my senses (or was struggling with the language).
• My rash thought was that either the sense of “true” in “all myths are true” needs unpacking (probably resulting in a banal letdown) or that “all myths are true” is nuts (albeit superficially exciting).
• I make no comment on the (fictional) nature or metaphysics of Glorantha, nor of the advancement of science or logic in Glorantha. “All myths are true” is more of a meta thing for us to play with, no?
• I apologise for all the fuss my original comment caused.