Sources of Illumination

[kalidor]

Hello there,

Question for the loremasters and Keepers of  the Chaosium

One of my players saw a Puppeteers drama and succeeded with her roll. So she got her Illumination skill.

Question: should she keep separated skills for different sources. Nysalorean, Puppeteers, Draconic...

Thanks

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Hello there,

Question for the loremasters and Keepers of  the Chaosium

One of my players saw a Puppeteers drama and succeeded with her roll. So she got her Illumination skill.

Question: should she keep separated skills for different sources. Nysalorean, Puppeteers, Draconic...

You could if you want to.  The only published material that touches on the topic - the Puzzle Canal scenario in the Big Rubble - didn't stipulate keeping it separate.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, kalidor said:

Question: should she keep separated skills for different sources. Nysalorean, Puppeteers, Draconic …

I wouldn’t bother, but do keep track of which illumination “tricks” she can use the one percentage to attempt. She might acquire different tricks (illumination abilities) from subsequent exposure to the different traditions.

Illumination is about escaping false prisons and punching through paper barriers, so wilful Balkanization seems to go against the spirit of it. (Well, to me, anyway. 😉)

[Alex]

1 hour ago, kalidor said:

Question for the loremasters and Keepers of  the ChaosQuestion: should she keep separated skills for different sources. Nysalorean, Puppeteers, Draconic...

Game-mechanically, there's no reason to..  Even of one thinks that Draconic Realization, Sevening, and whatever kool-aid the Puppies are smoking are cosmologically and mystically distinct, there's only one set of rules available for any of them, so might as well meex zem ehp een uh beeg bucke' weef a deble 'elping of pâté.

OTOH if it tickles you and/or the player concerned to track them separately, you can equally well did that, and only add them odd for purposes actually making the roll.  Then you can even reverse-engineer from that which of them was the key insight that did the trick!  I think I'd probably do that, personally.

[Aurelius]

I haven't read the booklet, but it'd take a really good roll in fast-talk to convince me that puppeteer troupe had an access to a form of illumination other than Nysalor. 

[ROOTless]

... and where can I read more about the puppeteer troupe, please?

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, ROOTless said:

... and where can I read more about the puppeteer troupe, please?

There isn't much. Lands of RuneQuest: Dragon Pass has their game stats on p.139, and several mentions throughout the book.

They are mentioned in the Cult of Donandar, p.75 of Earth Goddesses has a subchapter dedicated to them.

The Puppeteers first show up in White Bear and Red Moon as a military unit that can spawn illusionary armies, exchange places with those armies, and can be allied by those who can tell their illusions apart from the actual troupe. (Illusionary army counters are distributed to typical places where they would show up, such as the Smoking Ruins, and emissaries roll whether the Puppeteers are present. If they are, the puppeteers join the side of the emissary, and they can spawn those illusionary armies in the Exotic Magic phase.)

The story about Sarotar (Saronil's son) and Arkilia (a noblewoman of House Norinel in Nochet, daughter of the ruling queen) had an epilogue where Arkilia's daughter by Sarotar ran away with the Puppeteers after having spent her childhood in House Norinel.

The Puppeteers famously were able to ignore the Deathline and the Crossline during the Inhuman Occupation. Whether they did so by changing place with illusionary armies is unknown.

 

[kalidor]

51 minutes ago, ROOTless said:

... and where can I read more about the puppeteer troupe, please?

Earth goddesses Page 75.  Miscellaneus Notes section, fourth paragraph.

[mfbrandi]

6 hours ago, ROOTless said:

where can I read more about the puppeteer troupe, please?

13th Age Glorantha has a few pages on the troupe (pp. 303–308) but some of that is non-RQ rules stuff and one page is art you’ve probably seen before, so not enough to justify purchase on its own.

[soltakss]

On 11/10/2024 at 9:19 AM, kalidor said:

One of my players saw a Puppeteers drama and succeeded with her roll. So she got her Illumination skill.

Question: should she keep separated skills for different sources. Nysalorean, Puppeteers, Draconic...

No, Illumination is Illumination. The Puppeteers have kept some of Nysalor's Light and shine it on those watching their shows. So, if you walk around the Puzzle Canal, meet Nysalor on the Spirit Plane, answer Nysaloran Riddles, stare at the Glowline wall for too long, engage in debate with a Red Goddess cultist, or whatever, then you increase your Illumination skill.

In our Draconic Enlightenment supplement, on the Jonstown Compendium, we have a Draconic Enlightenment skill that mirrors Illumination but for draconic secrets.

[Alex]

14 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In our Draconic Enlightenment supplement, on the Jonstown Compendium, we have a Draconic Enlightenment skill that mirrors Illumination but for draconic secrets.

Which are game-mechanically equivalent, or distinct?

[soltakss]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

Which are game-mechanically equivalent, or distinct?

Yes! 🙂

[Alex]

24 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Yes! 🙂

*whacks on head to cause cessation of introspection!*

[Geoff R Evil]

Personally, in our game the skill levels are kept separate as we explore what illumination really means in our Glorantha.

This is because how dragons see the world is distinctly different to Nysalor/Gbaji. Additionally Arkati perspectives are subtlety different too, same info, different interpretations.

As for illuminate skills like identify an illuminate, I would suggest sometimes they are separate too, arkat and nysalor can identify one another, but won’t easily recognise a draconian illuminate, but should have a chance, and vice versa.

YGMV

[Harry the Dirty Dog]

On 11/10/2024 at 8:19 PM, kalidor said:

 

Question: should she keep separated skills for different sources. Nysalorean, Puppeteers, Draconic...

I think the question is "how much extra admin do you want your players to have to do and what is the benefit of doing it?"  

Unless your campaign specifically has a background where the difference between Nysalorean, Draconic, Sevening or other types of illumination are relevant, I wouldn't bother.  It would just be extra effort for no real reason.

[Joerg]

The Immanent Mastery skill is definitely separate from any of the regular Illumination skills, but then it also has different rules effects. But in a setting with rivaling paths ot illumination or other mystical powers by short-cut schools, giving each of these schools a separate skill might be the way to do. OTOH, there may be commonalities, so maybe the school skill only comes into play once you surpass a certain level (say 25%).

[Techpriest]

Honestly the source is more flavoring and what powers you have immediate access to. There’s many ways to be Illuminated and many who are Illuminated may not fully realize it, or the implications. A Storm Bull for instance who became Illuminated will no longer fear Chaos after a particularly sanity warping encounter or a Heroquest gone wrong, or lessons from a monk from the east. They might not realize they’re illuminated at first, but may figure it out later and seek out more knowledge. How they’re illuminated matters less than now being illuminated. Not all illuminates will react the same way or possess all the same abilities from the start. 

Think of Illumination as being able to see that the world isn’t as it seems. This knowledge can and does break people. You’re placed now on a path that has many twists and turns and crossroads to it, that others Illuminated before have walked. Some paths are clearer than others - Nysalorian Riddles, Draconic Mysticism, the Solar Monks of Dayzatar, Arkati Lessons, and God-Learner Academics - but your new Illuminate doesn’t need to conform to those at all to use or grow their abilities. Some paths give immediate revelations, like those following Arkat probably learning how to ignore cult restrictions, while others may take time for them (I doubt the Nysalorian Riddles immediately allows someone to spread more riddles without further study). 

Sure, in your Glorantha there can be different schools and specializations of Illumination which are mutually exclusive, but in general they’re all walking in the same direction. Illumination is a spectrum more than a single flaw. Some schools are going to have world views that make some illumination abilities just not viable to them or just never considered.
 

Imagine if you will, a school of Illuminated Humakti. That school may provide a very limited way of looking at illumination but a very interesting one. Life and Death are not to them, absolutes, but part of a greater cycle. To understand Humakt, they must embrace Life, live it, enjoy it within his restrictions, and welcome Death when it comes. They gain the ability to embrace runic opposites, and specialize in this. It’s the only special power outside of removing that automatic fear of Chaos. They can teach this illumination to others - but only the master of this small sect of strange people from Ralios or perhaps Teshnos can do it. Otherwise, they’re all normal Humakti. 

Maybe when one of them starts wandering out of that sect they start finding out they have the ability to sense other Illuminates by pure chance. Maybe not. 

This is to me what makes Illumination a fun tool as a game master. Handle it how you want. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

29 minutes ago, Techpriest said:

Think of Illumination as being able to see that the world isn’t as it seems.

however ... is there any reason that illuminates see all the "same world" ?  Is there any reason that illuminates see even the "true" world and not another perspective than common people see ?

I mean, it is "just" a higher level of (mis)understanding. But is there only one level higher than common ?

 

Note that I m not saying one illumination is higher level than another one.

I have no issue to see arkati and nysalor as the same world with different morale value. But a draconic illuminate seems to me far away from a lunar illuminate.

both draconic and nysalorean may share some "powers" (like no fear of chaos) but their perspective seem to me so different

 

I may be wrong, I have no culture, experience about what is called illumination.

[EricW]

On 11/27/2024 at 2:35 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

however ... is there any reason that illuminates see all the "same world" ?  Is there any reason that illuminates see even the "true" world and not another perspective than common people see ?

I mean, it is "just" a higher level of (mis)understanding. But is there only one level higher than common ?

 

Note that I m not saying one illumination is higher level than another one.

I have no issue to see arkati and nysalor as the same world with different morale value. But a draconic illuminate seems to me far away from a lunar illuminate.

both draconic and nysalorean may share some "powers" (like no fear of chaos) but their perspective seem to me so different

 

I may be wrong, I have no culture, experience about what is called illumination.

There are differences in outlook (e.g. Lunar use of Sevening to try to promote a particular illuminated outlook, as opposed to occlusion). But anything which helps illuminate new understandings about the world surely contributes to the odds of achieving illumination.

HOWEVER, contributions from different sources might make the final outlook of the illuminate more unpredictable. So for example, a Lunar who receives insights from non Lunar sources likely increases the odds that their illuminated outlook will diverge from the outlook which is the goal of various Lunar schools of illumination. 

Edited November 29 by EricW

[davecake]

It is perfectly possible to have multiple Illumination skills for the different philosophies, and usable for various Illumination powers. The big issue for some I think would be does it have the intrinsic link to the Moon Rune described in the Lunar Book, where it starts at Moon/5 (Magic bonus) and can be augmented with the Moon Rune. I'm happy with this as an intrinsic property of the Moon Rune myself. 

The practical argument against is that its adding skills for limited game utility. It is a complication that adds bookkeeping, and doesn't (to me) add much to the game. 

And personally I think Illumination is Illumination, and all paths are different routes to the same place - if Illumination is about the unity of everything and knowledge of the deep truth underlying the world, well its got to be the same. And Illumination is a fundamental transformation of the self, rather than something that is consciously transmissible. I think of becoming Illuminated as like becoming a shaman - how you get to that point will have implications for some of your first abilities, but ultimately the core change is the same. And just as becoming a shaman is a transformation of self that allows you to access the deeper secrets of animism, becoming an Illuminate is a core transformation that allows you to access the deeper secrets of mysticism. I think this means that the Sense Illumination ability works on other traditions (though you could certainly have bonuses or penalties if you are unfamiliar with the other Illuminants tradition). 

This doesn't mean the differences between the different philosophies are unimportant - they have very different ways by which you approach Illumination and teach it, and  different abilities you are likely to learn initially, or that you can learn theoretically. Nysalor Riddles are IMO unique to Nysalor (and allow teaching Illumination FAR faster - Eastern traditions are clear that before Nysalor, increasing your Illumination skill took a very long time (for the oldest traditions, often more than a human lifetime) and essentially consisted of years of meditation). And there may be special magic you can learn that requires Illumination, but builds on other magic (eg Red Goddess magic), and that can't simply be learnt by getting better at Illumination, but requires other methods. 

In our East Isles books, I suggested that you have a Tradition Lore, that is pretty much exactly the same as Cult Lore but for a mystical tradition rather than a rune cult, and is used for things like recognising ritual practices, knowing how your tradition might try to learn a particular ability, and so on. Trying to learn an ability from another tradition might first require gaining this skill to a reasonable level - or you might learn additional abilities through heroquest, mystic confrontation, strange encounters with the magic of other traditions, or particular challenges that your own tradition might recommend (the Lunars probably have lots of these, having systematised the use of Illumination powers for gaining magical power in the Lunar College of Magic). 

 

On 11/10/2024 at 8:18 PM, Aurelius said:

haven't read the booklet, but it'd take a really good roll in fast-talk to convince me that puppeteer troupe had an access to a form of illumination other than Nysalor. 

In Earth Goddesses, it explicitly says it is different - 

Quote

Each performance should be treated as a Nysalor Riddle as taught by the Nysalor cult, though this is a different mystical tradition.

 

On 11/26/2024 at 11:55 PM, Techpriest said:

Honestly the source is more flavoring and what powers you have immediate access to.

Yes

I think there should be a list of suggested abilities for various mystic paths, both initial and learnable, and/or method of Illumination. For example the Seven Mothers has both Life and Death and I think it should be very common for Lunars Illuminated by the Sevening Rights to not treat those Runes as Opposed. Some may easily unlock Truth and Illusion as unopposed, or Movement and Stasis (sitting in the Sky, stationary but turning). It would be common for them to learn to conceal their Chaotic nature. 

The Puppeteer Troupe should usually be able to treat Illusion and Truth as no longer Opposed. Perhaps their ability to switch places with their Illusions might unlock treating Movement and Stasis as Unopposed etc. But they are unlikely to teach immunity to Chaos detection. The Eastern traditions are unlikely to teach hiding your Chaotic nature, as Chaos isn't really part of their mythic understanding, but care a lot about Illusion - cults like Thella that teach that Truth can be found within Illumination are common (and maybe related to mystic tradition within the Puppeteer Troupe). 

I also think there are further magical powers that they teach, and this is beyond the commonality of Illumination. The Red Goddess teaches Red Goddess magic, but Dragon magic has to be taught by dragon traditions. 

And probably also big claims about the ultimate superiority - Atrilith vs Durapdur and all that - but we need no rules for that, it's a matter for lore and deep myth. 

On 11/26/2024 at 11:55 PM, Techpriest said:

(I doubt the Nysalorian Riddles immediately allows someone to spread more riddles without further study). 

In the Lunar Way, it seems to take a full seasons study at least? And a point of POW per riddle. 

And as I said, I think the Nysalor path is much quicker at teaching Illumination, and also learning to teach Illumination, than other schools (though noting that Arkatism seems to be derivative of Nysalorism in this way, though perhaps less irresponsible about it). 

On 11/26/2024 at 5:48 PM, Joerg said:

The Immanent Mastery skill is definitely separate from any of the regular Illumination skills, but then it also has different rules effects.

I am pretty sure that Immanent Mastery is considered false mysticism but pretty much everyone else, but its magic sure is useful so the Godunya cult keeps them around. 

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

I am pretty sure that Immanent Mastery is considered false mysticism but pretty much everyone else, but its magic sure is useful so the Godunya cult keeps them around. 

So am I, but History of the Heortling People and Book of Heortling Mythology mention Immanent Mastery as one of several short-cut paths used by the Third Council leaders. Isgangdrang used a similar but different short cut.

Talking to Greg, all that the leaders of the EWF after Obduran could do was to manifest as Great Dragons, entities barely discernible from True Dragons, but still only emanations of their mortal form, like the Dragonewt Ruler magic to summon a dream dragon at maximum boost.

Ingolf did manifest his dragon prematurely, although he was following an orthodox mystical path rather than one of the short cuts. Reognizing his error, he began anew, and had achieved the Kapertine stage of mystical refinement in 1042. Even his partial manifestation of the dragon gave him a seat on the council, though.

Great Lord Burin and Lorenkargatan the Mile (aka Labrygon) are the known surviving Great Dragon users after the Sun Dragon Emperor of Dara Happa was slain by Karvanyar and (Isgang)Drang by Alakoring. Drang was a Short Cut, no idea whether Labrygon was any more orthodox. Burin is unknown except for his title and maybe some appearance in the Kotor Wars. The Sun Dragon might have been orthodox, but he too seems to have stuck in the Inhuman King equivalent of draconic development.

In the East, Nenduren's Stillness was about realizing Atrilith (Dara Happan EzElVezTay) rather than Mashunasan's Unrealization DurApDur (Dara Happan VezKarVez). Both seem to be orthodox mysticism with ultimate goal of ascension. Then there was Venfornism, an integrative or tantric method that did grant its greatest practitioners ascension.

To repeat my point, with all these rivalling paths and goals I would suggest that using one rule set is the economical way to pursue this, but having different skills for their practices which may lead to different goals might be useful when rivalling mystic paths are a campaign theme.

Although it takes Illumination to combine exclusive Theist paths. What does it take to combine exclusive mystical paths? Does one have to become a Bodhisatva-like existence? Do multiple paths prevent ascension (or even approaching it)?

 

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ingolf did manifest his dragon prematurely

I love this euphemism. “Honestly, this has never happened to me before.” Are there schools of chemical illumination with access to “spiritual SSRIs” to deal with the problem?

Spoiler

Maybe drop the qualification “spiritual”: perhaps drugs that monkey with serotonin are just what wannabe mystics need — and possibly those opposed to the schools of illumination have started to worship their own psychological problems as gods: one can glibly imagine veteran Chaos fighters suffering from depression, anxiety, panic, OCD, or PTSD.

Edited yesterday at 01:40 PM by mfbrandi
eliminated repeated word

[davecake]

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

So am I, but History of the Heortling People and Book of Heortling Mythology mention Immanent Mastery as one of several short-cut paths used by the Third Council leaders. Isgangdrang used a similar but different short cut.

I take 'short cut' as being mostly a polite way of saying 'of very dubious mystic value'. You are trying to get the cool powers without doing the mystic work, and you do, but you don't really get the mystic payoff either. 

 

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

Talking to Greg, all that the leaders of the EWF after Obduran could do was to manifest as Great Dragons, entities barely discernible from True Dragons, but still only emanations of their mortal form, like the Dragonewt Ruler magic to summon a dream dragon at maximum boost.

Yes, you get the cool dragon powers, but you are not truly spiritually liberated. 

 

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

In the East, Nenduren's Stillness was about realizing Atrilith (Dara Happan EzElVezTay) rather than Mashunasan's Unrealization DurApDur (Dara Happan VezKarVez). Both seem to be orthodox mysticism with ultimate goal of ascension.

Indeed, Nenduren and Mashunasan are both variant approaches to orthodox mysticism. And Larn Hasamador too. 

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

Then there was Venfornism, an integrative or tantric method that did grant its greatest practitioners ascension.

Venfornism can be used to ascend, yes - Venforn does. But it does not use Refutation, but merges meditative practices with other magical practices. 

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

To repeat my point, with all these rivalling paths and goals I would suggest that using one rule set is the economical way to pursue this, but having different skills for their practices which may lead to different goals might be useful when rivalling mystic paths are a campaign theme.

I think that is an argument from an entirely abstract theoretical point of view, and it is better to treat the rules questions in a more applied context.

Consider the same argument applied to shamans - hey, hsunchen and Praxian shamans are different paths which lead to different goals, shouldn't that lead to different skills? Well, only if you could define a game need to have them differently. 

I just don't see any great game value in different skills for the specific Illumination skills, when they ultimately lead to the same game effects. It doesn't seem to achieve much, and it obfuscates the idea that the mystic experience is ultimately about oneness and unity. Sure, plenty of different rules for their actually different magical powers. But they are different rules.