How Canon is Lords of Terror?

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

I'm sure that recently I read that it is only semi canon? I assume that the stuff directly from CoT is official and the rest, not so much?

Can anyone clarify this, please? Pref someone from Chaosium?

Thanks for your time.

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

I'm sure that recently I read that it is only semi canon? I assume that the stuff directly from CoT is official and the rest, not so much?

Can anyone clarify this, please? Pref someone from Chaosium?

It's an update of Cults of Terror but some of the cults and many of the characters are kinda overdone.  Ironically the Cults of Terror cults that most needed a revamp didn't get much of a treatment in Lords of Terror.

[svensson]

Well, it's canon till they change it, which they have sort-of begun with the new write-up on Illumination in The Lunar Way.

But you can change it too... YGMV and all that.

Personally, I liked a lot of RQ3's Lords of Terror, especially the NPCs. I'll grant you that the Scorpion Queen Humakti was a little over the top, but it's no worse than a lot of other stuff. You know, like a broo Thanatari that somehow sneaked his way from Carmania to the Vulture Country without ever being discovered and never using up one of his Thanatar heads...

And I loved the Ralzakark and Mistress The Last write-ups.

Edited November 15 by svensson

[EricW]

6 hours ago, svensson said:

Well, it's canon till they change it, which they have sort-of begun with the new write-up on Illumination in The Lunar Way.

But you can change it too... YGMV and all that.

Personally, I liked a lot of RQ3's Lords of Terror, especially the NPCs. I'll grant you that the Scorpion Queen Humakti was a little over the top, but it's no worse than a lot of other stuff. You know, like a broo Thanatari that somehow sneaked his way from Carmania to the Vulture Country without ever being discovered and never using up one of his Thanatar heads...

And I loved the Ralzakark and Mistress The Last write-ups.

I actually liked the Scorpion Queen - because of illumination she adapted easily to no longer being human and took her new responsibilities seriously. Her easy acceptance that using venom was compatible with her Humakti values because it was natural. 

Yet for all that she was an utter abomination, a glimpse into the confusion and contradiction which must have reigned in the Bright Empire.

Edited November 15 by EricW

[David Scott]

On 11/15/2024 at 12:07 AM, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

I'm sure that recently I read that it is only semi canon? I assume that the stuff directly from CoT is official and the rest, not so much?

Can anyone clarify this, please? Pref someone from Chaosium?

Thanks for your time.

This is my non-Chaosium hat...

Look at:

• Gloranthan Canon
• Jeff’s Canonical Corpus

Basically this means that it's 95% good, and where superseded use the updated references (GtG, etc). Remember it's from 30 years ago so when in doubt treat it as a deprecated publication, as use what you want. See the LoT contents, it has the links to relevant cults and texts.

For the cult NPCs just convert them as you wish. Use the RQG rules to replace the disease, illumination rules etc.

Cults (if you don't have Lords of Terror), see also the cults on the Well of Daliath as it has pointers to the most recent versions and info.

Primal Chaos - No one's a member, the cult just gives a single use spell, the most recent write up is in the Lunar Way 127.
Malia - Use the RQG Bestiary, Cults of Glorantha Preview, or Cults of Terror.
Bagog - Use Cults of Glorantha Preview, or Cults of Terror.
Thed - Use the RQG Bestiary, Cults of Glorantha Preview, or Cults of Terror.
Vivamort - Use Cults of Glorantha Preview, or Cults of Terror.
Krjalk - Use Cults of Glorantha Preview.
Thanatar - Use Cults of Glorantha Preview, or Cults of Terror.
Pocharngo - Use Cults of Glorantha Preview
Krarsht - Use Cults of Glorantha Preview, or Cults of Terror.

Other cults (these are all short or base mentions)

Cacodemon - Use Cults of Glorantha Preview, or Griffin Mountain
Chalana Arroy - Use Lightbringers
Dorasta - In Earth Goddesses, Pelora page 92
Gloomshark - Use Cults of Glorantha Preview
Humakt - Use Lightbringers
Hungry Jack - Spirit cult, so use as is.
Ikadz - Associate cults: Danfive Xaron, Yara Aranis. See the Lunar Way for single spell
Korbog - Use as is, it's an inconsequential cult
Kyger Litor - Use Cults of Glorantha Preview or any other version you've got.
Lemure - Use as is, it's an inconsequential cult. Treat the spirit abilities are a rare chaos spirit ability.
Magra - Use as is, it's an inconsequential cult.
Sidana - Use as is, it's an inconsequential cult.
Telmor - Use the RQG Bestiary, or Cults of Glorantha Preview.
Tyram - Use Cults of Glorantha Preview
Urain - Don't use, there is no cult as described in LoT -  see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-bad-rain/
Vakalta - Use as is, it's an inconsequential cult.

Edited November 16 by David Scott
clean up and clarification

[Alex]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Urain - Don't use, this one is plain wrong -  see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-bad-rain/

TBH while maybe it's in the 'don't put it in an MS, we'll only have to take it out' category, the contradictions seem to me on the face of it rather moderate.  Urain's not chaotic but is associated with things that explicitly lead to Chaos.  That seems to be a distinction between the Bad Rain which is one's own flaws and weaknesses that one might have to confront, defeat, reject and purge and the Evil Rain which would be to morally invert such actions and deliberately perpetrate and glory in them.

[David Scott]

15 hours ago, Alex said:

TBH while maybe it's in the 'don't put it in an MS, we'll only have to take it out' category, the contradictions seem to me on the face of it rather moderate.  Urain's not chaotic but is associated with things that explicitly lead to Chaos.  That seems to be a distinction between the Bad Rain which is one's own flaws and weaknesses that one might have to confront, defeat, reject and purge and the Evil Rain which would be to morally invert such actions and deliberately perpetrate and glory in them.

To rephrase. Don't use, there is no cult as described in LoT. However, if you want to use it in your games, go ahead. 

[metcalph]

My comments:

Primal Chaos: I missed the Cults of Terror ability to sacrifice to a chaotic monster to control it (like an elemental).

Malia: the only real niggle I have with this is that Vivamort is an associated cult.  Why?  

Bagog: I've grumbled before that the ability to reincarnate captives forcibly into the cult is far too over the top for what is essentially a dim-witted goddess.  This an't call of cthulhu.  I would have used a page to describe what could be transferred (ie surface memories etc).  I would also have expunged the detail about scorpionfolk being buddies with the Broos.

Thed: I recall some grumbling in the past about the Gifts of Thed being overdone.  The associate cults is a bit silly.  Daka Fal's presence is excised while Ragnaglar gives some goodies despite being long dead and gone.  I would have replaced Cacademon specifically with the Parts of the Devil as per Nomad Gods - thus some broos might know instead the Summon Devil's Hand or Command Dragonsnails, Gorp, Bullshitch and Gas.

Vivamort: Not given a full treatment.  There's really only two issues I have with the Cults of Terror writeup - it hews a bit too closely to conventional vampire lore to such an extent that you are left wondering how Delecti as described in White Bear and Red Moon is doing in the cult.  There's also an absurd spell thief mechanic which comes across as a powergamer's delight and which could be safely excised without making Vampires less scary.

Krjalk's main problem is I think the adjacent treatment it gives to the Hellwood Elves.

Thanatar: Not given the full treatment but cf Shadow on the Borderlands.  Even though it was made far less complicated in cult structure than the original in Cults of Terror - a welcome development - the complexity and some details still seems ato me  bit contrived.  For example two separate cults making a third?  Yeah nah.  I would just have had a third cult based around Darklight (the twisted ghost of the Mistress of the Light of Knowledge) but that's just me.  

Krarsht and Pocharngo I don't have a general problem with.

[AlHazred]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Thanatar: Not given the full treatment but cf Shadow on the Borderlands.  Even though it was made far less complicated in cult structure than the original in Cults of Terror - a welcome development - the complexity and some details still seems ato me  bit contrived.  For example two separate cults making a third?  Yeah nah.  I would just have had a third cult based around Darklight (the twisted ghost of the Mistress of the Light of Knowledge) but that's just me.

I've come to the conclusion Thanatar was a sort of "test run" cult integration by the company that brought you such hits as Caladra & Aurelion (great success!), and Osentalka (... not so much!). So, I actually welcome the complication -- it looks like an unfinished mess, and it should! My take on it is based heavily on Lords of Terror; it still needs work, but I like a lot of the ideas I put in it.

Edited November 16 by AlHazred

[metcalph]

The weakness in the Thanatari cult writeup is really related to the origin of Atyar.  It's worshipped by an Island of Headhunters, which would mean they would have spells like Devour Book rather than Create Head?!?  My own feeling is that Atyar is probably one of the Forty-Two Hidden Temples (Guide p532) with secretive origins.  They made contact with the Isle of the Headhunters and used whatever forbidden lore they had stolen to harmonize the two cults (ie they were two parts of one god).  The semi-united cult spread to Kralorela where the authorities stomped on them.  The survivors fled across the wastes and reach Dragon Pass where they found a native cult of headhunters there ("[...] the god Than (a corruption of Tien) [...] prowling the fens of Snake Pipe Hollow [...]" Cults of Terror p53).  They did the same method they did before with some success but now ended up with what's known as the "multiple heads of John the Baptist" problem.  

A more subtle issue is that the Thanatari aren't really numerous so the idea of one or several cultists making their way across the wastes and having a propitiously undetected and peaceful meet-cute with a similarly psychotic band of headhunters kinda strains probability.  If a Dragon Pass headhunter snicked the head of an (unknown to him) Kralori headhunter *then* the fusion of the two cults becomes more plausible.  
 

 

[EricW]

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

A more subtle issue is that the Thanatari aren't really numerous so the idea of one or several cultists making their way across the wastes and having a propitiously undetected and peaceful meet-cute with a similarly psychotic band of headhunters kinda strains probability.  If a Dragon Pass headhunter snicked the head of an (unknown to him) Kralori headhunter *then* the fusion of the two cults becomes more plausible.  

Perhaps they were drawn by a ritual. An heroquest by a powerful Than leader to seek more information about the lost head could well result in Atyar worshippers turning up in the middle of the ritual. The outcome of a joint attempt to heal their god could well have been the creation of the Thanatar cult. 

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, metcalph said:

meet-cute with … psychotic … headhunters

3 hours ago, EricW said:

Atyar worshippers turning up

Do we need a this-world meeting to generate the new stitched cult? Use the Monrogh playbook: a cultist of Than or Atyar — maddened by the incompleteness of their deity — has a vision “revealing” Than = Atyar; subsequently cultists of Than and of Atyar taking part in their respective devotions across the lozenge start downloading and running the Thanatar meme; only later do the cults unite in meatspace. As I think Metcalph was saying, it matters not at all whether Than and Atyar were parts of one god (the “mythical” Tien), by the magic of syncretism, they are now.

Spoiler

Where do the God Learners, Thanatar, the Seven Mothers, and Monrogh get this magic from? The goddess of the ansible, the mistress of moving while standing still, and the doyenne of the mind meld, of course.

Edited November 17 by mfbrandi
Tien -> Than (Doh!)

[David Scott]

23 hours ago, AlHazred said:

I've come to the conclusion Thanatar was a sort of "test run" cult integration by the company that brought you such hits as Caladra & Aurelion (great success!), and Osentalka (... not so much!). So, I actually welcome the complication -- it looks like an unfinish

Compared with Cults of Prax, where all the cults were written by Stafford and Perrin, the Cults of Terror were written by an array of different authors:

• Primal Chaos By Ken Kaufer
• Mallia By Anders Swenson
• Bagog By Charlie Krank And John Natzke
• Thed By Sandy Petersen
• Vivamort By Sean Summers
• Thanatar By Paul Jaquays
• The Crimson Bat By Rudy Kraft
• Krarsht By John Natzke, Lynn Willis, Charlie Krank
• Nysalor/Gbaji By Greg Stafford

This in my mind explains why the cults are written in a very different style with much more complexity than CoP.

Note that Caladra and Aurelian was written by Charles {Chuck) Huber, which has the same complex over-structuring. The same thing with the original three feathered rivals by Ray Turney, which was fortunately never adopted, (Both originally published in Different Worlds).

Later publications, rather that editing down and streamlining them, either retained their original structure, or added more.

[Soccercalle]

I would probably use Cults of Terror as written. At least if you only use it for NPCs. Chaos cults are probably more "chaotic" than most and few players will observe any differences when the Chaos book is published. 

[soltakss]

On 11/16/2024 at 12:51 PM, AlHazred said:

I've come to the conclusion Thanatar was a sort of "test run" cult integration by the company that brought you such hits as Caladra & Aurelion (great success!), and Osentalka (... not so much!). So, I actually welcome the complication -- it looks like an unfinished mess, and it should! My take on it is based heavily on Lords of Terror; it still needs work, but I like a lot of the ideas I put in it.

That is my take, too. Thanatar was an early God Learner success and led to Caladra & Aurelion, which worked better. 

[metcalph]

31 minutes ago, soltakss said:

That is my take, too. Thanatar was an early God Learner success and led to Caladra & Aurelion, which worked better. 

I OTOH have a long aversion to blaming the God Learners for everything bad.  Considering the Theyalans and the Dara Happans and also Arkat did the same mythic identification on a much larger scale, it's not necessary for the God Learners to create Thanatar.

[Jeff]

I think "canon" gets used in a lot of weird ways on this forum, so I'm going to sidestep the question and just say that Cults of Terror is certainly a solid source on how those Chaos cults work. Obviously it needs some mechanical adjustments, and there might be some stray references to minor details that need mild tweaking, but it is what writers and licensees are given as a reference (unlike History of the Heortling People or other unfinished works). 

Greg disliked the Thanatar cult, and there's a reason you pretty much never see a reference to Thanatar in any of his materials. That being said, Thanatar is a clear fan favorite, and up there with Krarsht and Gbaji as the most popular Chaotic villain. Thanatar was not created by the God Learners, although no doubt there were Jrusteli looking for a shortcut to power that tried to exploit him to get there. 

[svensson]

23 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I think "canon" gets used in a lot of weird ways on this forum, so I'm going to sidestep the question and just say that Cults of Terror is certainly a solid source on how those Chaos cults work. Obviously it needs some mechanical adjustments, and there might be some stray references to minor details that need mild tweaking, but it is what writers and licensees are given as a reference (unlike History of the Heortling People or other unfinished works). 

Greg disliked the Thanatar cult, and there's a reason you pretty much never see a reference to Thanatar in any of his materials. That being said, Thanatar is a clear fan favorite, and up there with Krarsht and Gbaji as the most popular Chaotic villain. Thanatar was not created by the God Learners, although no doubt there were Jrusteli looking for a shortcut to power that tried to exploit him to get there. 

Thanks for the input @Jeff

I personally use the word 'canon' for 'previously published Chaosium [etc.] materials from RQ 2 forwards' and specifically don't include the Mongoose Second Age stuff in there. But as I've said before there are lots of sources, discussions, apocrypha and so on and others have other definitions of the word.

I'm surprised that Greg didn't like Thanatar. I don't know why I'm surprised, I never met him and don't know much about his personal preferences. But I am. IMHO Thantar and Vivamort make suitably terrifying opponents for any party of adventurers. They may not be major players insofar as Grand Chaos Plots go [if any such thing exists in Official Glorantha], but having a headhunter and a vampire hunting you to literally steal your soul and enslave your entire being seems to me to be a perfect can of 'Hero B-Gone' 😆

[Alex]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

I'm surprised that Greg didn't like Thanatar. I don't know why I'm surprised, I never met him and don't know much about his personal preferences.

Can't claim to ever have had a lengthy Thanatar chat with Greg, but this might mean in the 'why I dislike Mostali' sense, that he didn't like the aesthetics of using them as a GM -- or getting garroted by one as a PC -- that the concept of the deity didn't 'fit' in Glorantha at all, or that it was all great stuff except it didn't follow the Universal Cult Format enough.

[EricW]

I've always wondered about the strange distance between Thanatar and the God Learners. I mean the god of knowledge thieves seems a natural fit for a group of hyper competitive sorcerous knowledge thieves. Coming perilously close to reconstructing Tien seems a plausible reason for the catastrophic destruction of the God Learner civilisation.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 11/17/2024 at 7:07 PM, Jeff said:

I think "canon" gets used in a lot of weird ways on this forum, so I'm going to sidestep the question and just say that Cults of Terror is certainly a solid source on how those Chaos cults work. Obviously it needs some mechanical adjustments, and there might be some stray references to minor details that need mild tweaking, but it is what writers and licensees are given as a reference (unlike History of the Heortling People or other unfinished works). 

Greg disliked the Thanatar cult, and there's a reason you pretty much never see a reference to Thanatar in any of his materials. That being said, Thanatar is a clear fan favorite, and up there with Krarsht and Gbaji as the most popular Chaotic villain. Thanatar was not created by the God Learners, although no doubt there were Jrusteli looking for a shortcut to power that tried to exploit him to get there. 

I was thinking about the 'smaller' cults, rather than the reprinted ones and the other stuff.

[Jeff]

15 hours ago, EricW said:

I've always wondered about the strange distance between Thanatar and the God Learners. I mean the god of knowledge thieves seems a natural fit for a group of hyper competitive sorcerous knowledge thieves. Coming perilously close to reconstructing Tien seems a plausible reason for the catastrophic destruction of the God Learner civilisation.

Again, Thanatar is basically a Call of Cthulhu cult that caters to serial killers. Even your most ambitious and amoral research scientist tends to balk at ritually murdering other scientists in a week-long ritual and then wearing his decapitated head. 

Although the Thanatar cult was no doubt active and exploited the opportunities created by the Middle Sea Empire, the God Learners themselves viewed Thanatar as a cult of serial killers right out of Silence of the Lambs.

[Alex]

30 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Even your most ambitious and amoral research scientist tends to balk at ritually murdering other scientists in a week-long ritual and then wearing his decapitated head. 

Lawyers, though...

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, Alex said:

Lawyers, though …

Perhaps that is the secret origin of the barrister’s wig: it used to be a whole head, was gradually whittled down, and is now symbolic horsehair.

[radmonger]

In the case of Lhankhor mhy, surely beard, not wig?