What's the Story of Elmal in Dragon Pass

[Alex]

53 minutes ago, JonathanQuaife said:

The reference to sky here is actually calling out that lowland people (i.e. non-Yemalio worshippers)

I took it to be saying that the 'mountain people' and the 'lowland cultures' were two different groups of Yelmalio worshipers, one associating him primarily with the sun ('as a source of light', i.e. the Winter Sun and so on) and the the other with the Sun Dome.

[Nick Brooke]

Here’s how the Elmal/Yelmalio business is handled in Sandheart: it took 14 words.

[M Helsdon]

11 hours ago, JonathanQuaife said:

...is indeed the quote. Yelmalio (for some, apparently) is "the" sun cult.

That would be a misreading, as in many regions, Yelmalio is the only significant solar cult but that does not mean he is the Sun God. The full cult text makes it clear Yelm is the Sun God, and Yelmalio is his 'son'. For these people it might be suggested that the Sun God is too remote for direct worship, and so he is approached via his son, to whose worshipers he grants certain magics.

14 hours ago, Eff said:

I am interested in using these texts for play.

You can use whatever you want at your table, but that doesn't mean that your use of them should be reflected by the IP owner.

14 hours ago, Eff said:

Therefore, treating them as purely intended to mislead and distract runs counter to using them for play. The Chaosium position, as articulated in this thread, is that these texts are not ones they think should be used for play, making the texts they produce not all that relevant to using these other texts for play, because if I accept them, I am accepting the irrelevancy of the texts for play. 

Nonsense. They are intended to add, depth, color, and nuance. Of course you can use them for play.

14 hours ago, Eff said:

Even if I ignore the ideological presumption of the Chaosium officialized understanding and treat it as something which can be interpreted, then that interpretation would be done in light of the desire to use these texts for play. Which would make any and all statements which make major portions of those texts irrelevant incompatible with the purpose of this activity- using these texts for play. 

I'm sure you are welcome to interpret  material, whether in-world or rulebook, how ever you want at your table. The problem is when people attempt to present their own interpretations and speculations as more valid than those of the IP owner. 

Edited November 25 by M Helsdon

[Scotty]

BRP members, The age old Elmal / Yelmalio debate continues to raise its head on this site (and others) and here we are back again. Please consider your contribution before posting. Please keep your quips to yourself, and trolling the management won't be tolerated. Members are reminded to keep it civil and:

[SDLeary]

7 hours ago, Alex said:

Hrm, the reigns?  Is this the part where the conspirators praise Jeff's warm yellow glow, and present him with regalia of that metal... 🙂

Oops! 🙃

Though now that I’m thinking about it … Sartarsaga presented in a Game Of Thrones manner is certainly something that I would watch! 
 

SDLeary

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

That would be a misreading, as in many regions, Yelmalio is the only significant solar cult but that does not mean he is the Sun God. The full cult text makes it clear Yelm is the Sun God, and Yelmalio is his ‘son’. For these people it might be suggested that the Sun God is too remote for direct worship, and so he is approached via his son

If I put my religious hat° on, I am sure I can find a real-world example of squaring this particular circle:

Spoiler

I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also:
and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him …
he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;
and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
— John 14

The sun god tends to fly apart, but — as major dudes Becker and Fagen remind us — “any minor world that breaks apart falls together again”. We can have centrifugal and centripetal tendencies within and between solar cults and religions. Gloranthans can and will fight over theology, but they can weasel their way to peace if they want to, and so can we. We don’t have to fight over this stuff if we don’t want to.

We could also see the myth of Yelmalio as lone survivor — all the other gods dead — as reflecting an Akhenaten-like experiment in monotheism, and the subsequent tidying up and reining in of the little suns (rival religious conceptions) as part of the re-assertion of polytheism (the return of the repressed).

Spoiler

If the gods had “stopped,” they were incapable of attending the ceremony: their shrines are depicted standing empty. Only the Disc is present, not in the roofless shrines but shining from above, almost mockingly filling the void, and confiscating the other gods’ offerings.
— Donald B. Redford, Akhenaten: New Theories and Old Facts (Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 369, p. 27)

We could, but we don’t have to. Equally, we could see the little suns as the earthly solar emperors. Or we could have the earthly solar emperor as the son and rotate the little sun to the “holy ghost” role.

Spoiler

The mainspring of Akhenaten’s thought was a fixation with his father in the form of the universal dazzling Disc, who for him replaced all the abdicating powers of earth and heaven When all was said and done, naught remained but the father, the son, and radiance.
— Donald B. Redford, Akhenaten: New Theories and Old Facts (Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 369, p. 29)

None of this pretends to scholarship. It is just a game.

—————————————————
° It is not really mine. I “borrowed” it, and it doesn’t fit.

Edited November 25 by mfbrandi
punctuation

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

If I put my religious hat° on, I am sure I can find a real-world example of squaring this particular circle:

It would never catch on.

[Darius West]

On 11/25/2024 at 1:09 AM, Jeff said:

Again you are welcome to have your Glorantha be whatever you want. But as far as the Chaosium editorial team is concerned:

• Elmal was not a Thunder Brother. Elmal did not have fire powers - he was always the Cold Sun. The Orlanthi cult was friendly with the Orlanth cult but they were not associated cults.
• Monrogh saw that Orlanth did defeat the god he called Elmal atop the Hill of Gold.
• Elmal is just another name for Yelmalio. 

Now again you are welcome to reject some or all of that in your Glorantha. But that is how it gets treated in RQ products published by us or our partners. You might want to clarify that you are talking about YOUR Glorantha.

Retconned too far.