Shield skills

[Tupper]

In the core rulebook, the shield skill says that each size of shield is its own skill, so presumably you have skill in small, medium, and large shields (all of which have base skill 15%).  However, in the weapons and equipment book, spiked and bladed shields are listed with a base of 5%, and small bronze shields have a base of 10%.  What's going on?  Should different types of shields (bronze, spiked, bladed, etc) be separate skills?  And why are spiked/bladed/bronze shields so hard to learn to use compared to regular ones?

[soltakss]

49 minutes ago, Tupper said:

Should different types of shields (bronze, spiked, bladed, etc) be separate skills?  And why are spiked/bladed/bronze shields so hard to learn to use compared to regular ones?

Those require different techniques to use than normal shields, as they need different movements that are not the same as for traditional parrying. I am not sure about bronze shields, they should be the same as normal shields.

[Geoff R Evil]

From what I remember the core rule book had errors regarding shields, and the arms and equipment guide was meant to be the definitive version.

what a shield is made of should not make a difference to starting skill levels. 

[Scotty]

14 hours ago, Tupper said:

In the core rulebook, the shield skill says that each size of shield is its own skill, so presumably you have skill in small, medium, and large shields (all of which have base skill 15%).

Yes, per the core rules 216-218:

• Small Hide (8C) or Wood (4L) 15%
• Medium Hide (14C), Wicker (1L), or Wood (12L)15%
• Large Hide, Wicker (25C), or Wood (40L) 15%

14 hours ago, Tupper said:

However, in the weapons and equipment book, spiked and bladed shields are listed with a base of 5%,

Yes, they are weighted differently, and are harder to manipulate (more unwieldy). 

Note:

• there are no large spiked or medium or large bladed shields.
• small bladed and spiked shields have a higher required STR.

Note the costs compared to Hide, Wicker, or Wood

• Small Spiked Shield (25L)
• Small Bladed Shield (10L)
• Medium Spiked Shield (30L)

14 hours ago, Tupper said:

and small bronze shields have a base of 10%. 

Heavier. Double the ENC of a small Hide or Wooden shield.

• Note there are no medium or large bronze shields.

Note the cost compared to Hide, Wicker, or Wood

• Small Bronze Shield (40L)

14 hours ago, Tupper said:

What's going on?  Should different types of shields (bronze, spiked, bladed, etc) be separate skills?

Yes. They aren't available in the core rules, so just add it to the blank line under shields.

Note that extra large wicker shields are also unwieldy, and so have a 10% 

14 hours ago, Tupper said:

And why are spiked/bladed/bronze shields so hard to learn to use compared to regular ones?

Mainly due to the weight distribution.

Note that while the base starting value is lower, training will cost is the same as any other weapon skill (professional - see RQG 417)

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Note there are no medium or large bronze shields.

What about enchanted copper shields?

I imagine the Gorites would have those, and since copper has a lower ENC than bronze, I can see them making use of it.

[radmonger]

19 hours ago, soltakss said:

I am not sure about bronze shields, they should be the same as normal shields.

The general rule seems to be that anything different enough to have different base stats is a different skill. 

The interesting thing to me, looking at that table properly for the first time, is that there is no medium bronze shield. Looking into it, it seems ancient hoplite-style shields were not actually solid bronze, but a wooden core with thin bronze plating.  I guess functionally, these would be a superior version of a wooden shield.

The same would apply to enchanted copper, or any other material that ended up within spitting distance of 1 ENC.

 

[Scotty]

20 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

What about enchanted copper shields?

I imagine the Gorites would have those, and since copper has a lower ENC than bronze, I can see them making use of it.

Note that per EG 53: Axe Maidens receive a complete suit of enchanted copper armor and a copper axe from their temple. They don't receive a shield and the cult doesn't train shield either. Their special Copper Enchantment would not affect the ENC of a copper shield (as it would be the same as a bronze shield). The hammered copper armor rule would not not apply to copper shields.

[Tupper]

@Scotty Thanks for the clarification.  That all makes perfect sense now!

[Shiningbrow]

On 11/26/2024 at 5:27 PM, Scotty said:

They don't receive a shield and the cult doesn't train shield either.

OK, fine.

 

On 11/26/2024 at 5:27 PM, Scotty said:

Their special Copper Enchantment would not affect the ENC of a copper shield (as it would be the same as a bronze shield). The hammered copper armor rule would not not apply to copper shields.

This is odd... why would it affect full plate, but not a shield??

[Beoferret]

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

This is odd... why would it affect full plate, but not a shield??

Maybe because they're expected/encouraged to use two-handed axes? Thus, a shield would be non-standard equipment. That's my guess.

[Jens]

14 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

why would it affect full plate, but not a shield?

Apart from ceremonial shields and the odd tiny buckler, all metal shields were not used historically as they'd be far too heavy. Instead wood or leather shields might have a metal boss or edging. The amount of metal used in those shields was not very much, and the bulk of the ENC of a shield is the size, not necessarily the weight- the minor savings from an enchanted copper rim or boss wouldn't noticeably change the ENC. 

[Shiningbrow]

17 hours ago, Beoferret said:

Maybe because they're expected/encouraged to use two-handed axes? Thus, a shield would be non-standard equipment. That's my guess.

Yes, definitely... (although, since they also have 1H axe as a skill, shield makes sense as well).

However, my point was about why the copper enchantment doesn't/wouldn't have the same magical effect on a shield as it does on the armour.

 

16 hours ago, Jens said:

the minor savings from an enchanted copper rim or boss wouldn't noticeably change the ENC. 

So, a full Enchanted copper shield could be very handy if it can reduce that ENC (remembering that it's an  option for Masterwork Items (W&E p10)

[davecake]

On 12/1/2024 at 4:30 AM, Beoferret said:

Maybe because they're expected/encouraged to use two-handed axes? Thus, a shield would be non-standard equipment.

Babeester Gor worshippers are expected/encouraged to use BOTH one and two handed axes, not one or the other. Axe Maidens (Rune Lords) are required to be masters of both. While they aren't explicitly trained in using shields, besides being expected to master 1H axes they also have access to the best shield enhancing magic in the game (Earth Shield) so they aren't exactly discouraged. Though I imagine some of them work on their off hand Axe skill instead, all the better when they go Berserk.