BRP Initiative discussion

[Renfield]

I have completed my first BRP game and all of its rules.  (A few more powers to write up, but thats just extras).  

I made a few custom rules, but not much. 

One thing that came up is the matter of combat and Initiative. 

The game I cam creating is a real-world setting, so normal guns, knives, and fists as primary (ignore the magic comment above for now, lol).  So the game is deadly in so much as "a single gunshot and you are likely going down, either from pain, blood loss or just flat dead."   who acts first often wins the fight....  but also...    Knife stabs and punches kicks can go in swings and roundabouts, same with grappling to pin or knockout.  

And I want the opinions of BRP fans and players, so i have a better idea of what folks tend to enjoy most in general, and also in BRP specifically.   (Do you have high expectations for Initiative in BRP games to all be the same or very similar?) 

 

• What if there were no initiative?   Enemies always go first, then players go in any order amongst themselves they want.  And special options in game can allow for a player to 'gain the initiative' and go first. 

 

• What if Initiative was strictly "take it in turns"?   Player goes and choses next enemy, then enemy goes and chooses next player, then other player, then other baddie. etc etc  (in the case of uneven numbers, well, the remainder folks just go in any order.  So if the baddies are 7 and player characters are 3, then after 3 players and baddies go, all the remaining baddies go, then new round starts.) 

 

• What if Initiative was 1d10+DEX bonus, and rolled only once at start of first round?   But this come with a caveat that the GM could call for re-rolls at start of any round if the circumstances or scene changed enough in some way.  (like went from car chase to foot chase for example) 

  

Edited November 27 by Renfield

[g33k]

My preference is for only slight randomness; a d10 is IMHO too much, frequently overwhelming all other inputs to the process.

I do like SOME randomness... I might add 1d3-1 (0-1-2) or 1d3-1d3 (-2 to +2, bell-curving to 0 as most-common) or some similar mechanism.

I think skill should matter at least as much as raw DEX -- more-skilled fighters will usually see (and take) an earlier opportunity than less-skilled ones.

You may want to look at what's called "popcorn initiative" it's a very interesting (and player-engaging) process.

I'm still formulating my own take, for  a game I have in the works...

Edited November 27 by g33k

[Simulacrum]

DEX rank can give you a lot of differentiation, a bigger die can be a leveller (or the reverse). Without a die adjustment someone has to live with always being last while their fellow PC is always first. I was using Mythras Average INT and DEX (less variation) + 1d10, I thought too swingy, so am now using average INT and DEX + 1d6. 

Per Mythras also using Actions, so multiple attacks per round possible, but Actions also have to cover your defence so no -30% each parry. If you use them all for attacks or other proactive actions, I am applying a -6 initiative spacer for each subsequent action. Working fine so far

 

 

[Renfield]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

My preference is for only slight randomness; a d10 is IMHO too much, frequently overwhelming all other inputs to the process.

You may want to look at what's called "popcorn initiative" it's a very interesting (and player-engaging) process.
 

Oh, yeah.. 1d10 is likely too swingy.  Though I do want a little bit.  Maybe 1d5 then....   Since most DEX bonuses seem to be +1 to +3 commonly, that seems to give higher Dex folks more often the lead, but not always... 

 

Oh yeah!  Popcorn init!  That is where I was going with "Take it in turns".  I just forgot the "last player picks who goes first next round."  

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, Renfield said:

• What if there were no initiative?   Enemies always go first, then players go in any order amongst themselves they want.  And special options in game can allow for a player to 'gain the initiative' and go first. 

Then you'd get a much higher death toll among the PCs. One of the differences between BRP and most class & level games that use initiative is that a opponent can often be taken out of the fight with one attack. So if the bad guys go first then the players are always at a significant disadvantage. It's not like D&D where characters can shurg off a 10 or 20 point hit and keep fighting. 

 

4 hours ago, Renfield said:

• What if Initiative was strictly "take it in turns"?   Player goes and choses next enemy, then enemy goes and chooses next player, then other player, then other baddie. etc etc  (in the case of uneven numbers, well, the remainder folks just go in any order.  So if the baddies are 7 and player characters are 3, then after 3 players and baddies go, all the remaining baddies go, then new round starts.) 

Then initiative is mostly a matter of luck. It doesn't matter how skilled or fast someone is. That might be okay for some games, but it seems odd if te qucik elf always ends up going last. Maybe it would be better to draw chits from a bowl?

It is nice for when you want someone in particular to go first- say the guy standing next to the door. Probably not so good in a quick draw situation.

4 hours ago, Renfield said:

 

• What if Initiative was 1d10+DEX bonus, and rolled only once at start of first round?   But this come with a caveat that the GM could call for re-rolls at start of any round if the circumstances or scene changed enough in some way.  (like went from car chase to foot chase for example) 

  

Then you're just alternating turns. Not necessarily bad. The size of the die compared to the DEX bonus will be cruiclal to how much effort the players will put into this. If it's mostly random then they won't really bother to optimize this. If the DEX bonus is singfincant, then you might see a lot of high DEX PCs, either by design or by attrition. Again going first is a significant advantage in BRP games.

 

A few of other methods to the mix...

 

• RuneQuest, and the Big Gold Book version of BRP used a Strike Rank system tat counted up from 0 to 10 (or 12) that sequenced events. It was nice in that everything you did has a cost in Strike Ranks, so what you did, what weapon you used, how large your reach was, and how fast you were all factored in. It handled magic and missile weapons too. So the bad guy probably couldn't run across the room and hit you with an axe before you could fire off a quick shot or spell.
• Ringworld used a similar Impulse system that was similar to strike ranks, but didn't use combat rounds. So if it took 7 impulses for an attack you could do it on impulse 7, 14, 21, etc. 
• Pendragon doesn't really use initiative at all. Instead combat is treated as an opposed action with the winner inflicting damage on the loser. The loser gets his shield protection if his roll was under his skill. Pendragon does use DEX o see who goes first in some rare cases, where it might matter (like if you are trying to intercept a monster before it gets to a defenseless character), but it is usually just opposed rolls.
• I did a house system where Initiative was determined by an opposed skill roll. You added 1 to your skill score for each 1 cm on reach of you weapon. So if you had a sword with a 1 meter reach you added 100 to your skill for the roll. We had a little table with reach for each weapon and you could trade off skill for reach and vice versa (1 skill for 2 reach). 

Edited November 28 by Atgxtg

[Renfield]

Thank you for adding those others!   

So in my game, most attacks are by guns or by grapple.  (and spells which are often ranged, but again, lets set spells aside). 

So this is much more like a old west game, where you may not be quick to draw, but it really is about "who shoots first".  (ignoring circumstantial stuff like utter surprise and darkness etc etc) 

 

"You (3 player characters) are in a warehouse. You have your pistol out.  You are trying to get to the main office.  You come across the main room which you must cross, but it has 7 guards patrolling around, milling about, chatting it up, etc.  They are armed with pistols or shotguns which are somewhat at the ready.   You try to sneak, but fumble the roll, its a shootout now..." 

Is there a clever way of setting this up for "Taking the Initiative" ??

Like maybe.... 

- All Enemies go first, but at a -10% penalty you can get a shot off first? 

- Spend a point of "Resolve" or "Stress" or roll "Passion", to make a Skill roll to distract the guards from your position, then if successful, get to shoot first?

- Everyone gets 10 Init points +Dex bonus.   You can spend X Init points to Attack for damage, or to Distract and steal N Init points from a target.  Highest Init points goes next...

 

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, Renfield said:

Is there a clever way of setting this up for "Taking the Initiative" ??

There are ways to handle that; here are a few:

1) The James Bond RPG used to use a DRAW roll to handle that. Both combatants would "draw" against each other and roll 1D6 plus modifiers for the character's Speed rating (form 0 to 3), the weapon's DRAW modifier (pistols were +0, SMGs about -2, rifles about -4, but it varied by a point or two either way for specific models), plus any other modifiers if the weapon was actually in it's holster (typically a -2 modifier). High roll went first, and tied were re-rolled without any modifiers. The system handled multiple vs. one encounters with the same mechanics, and you could get into multiple draws in a fight or even in the same round in someone new entered the area. The whole thing was designed so that an PC with a handgun would usually get the shot off before an NPC wielding an assault rifle. So if a PC waled into a room and two guards tried to swing their AK-47s at him, he could DRAW against both of them and possible shoot them before they filled him full of bullets. BTW, this was really simple, and worked really good for an old west fast draw showdown. We even added modifiers for hip firing.

 

2) The 1st edition of Sanguine's Usagi Yojimbo RPG had an initiative system (Actually several similar systems) where you would roll to see if characters were  caught off guard (reeling), were reactive, or had focus. Those with focus could not only act, but could spent their focus to interrupt another character. It could even get to the point where characters could interrupt other characters only to be interrupted themselves.

But.. the game also had a counterattack option. If you were attacked you could counter-attack and make an opposed roll to try to hit them before they hit you. You could do this once per round (there were ways to get additional counter attacks), and if successful your attack was resolved before you'd resolve thiers. So you could drop someone before they hit you. But, if they were still up after your attack their hit got resolved.  

3) FASA's Star Trek RPG had a system where yous spend action points to do things during a round. Some actions allowed you to  interrupt another character to do something. For instace is a Kligon was taking an aimed shot at you with his disuptor, you could interrupt him to do a snap shot and shoot first, but at a reduced percentage..  In play many firefights would turn into most of the characters interrupting each other to take rushed shots (and often miss). 

 

For BPR you might just want to let a character spend a hero point to bump their DEX rank by 5 or 10 points, or use an opposed roll of some sort.

 

Edited November 29 by Atgxtg

[Lloyd Dupont]

7 hours ago, Renfield said:

Is there a clever way of setting this up for "Taking the Initiative" ??

I just had a thought.

When one surprise the enemy with an ambush, the obviously "have the initiative" (in the conventional sense), and get a free round of unparryable attack.

Couldn't they also get, say a +10 initiative?

EDIT, thought about it some more, nevermind, not a good idea! ^_^

Edited November 29 by Lloyd Dupont

[Renfield]

19 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

2) The 1st edition of Sanguine's Usagi Yojimbo RPG had an initiative system (Actually several similar systems) where you would roll to see if characters were  caught off guard (reeling), were reactive, or had focus. Those with focus could not only act, but could spent their focus to interrupt another character. It could even get to the point where characters could interrupt other characters only to be interrupted themselves.

But.. the game also had a counterattack option. If you were attacked you could counter-attack and make an opposed roll to try to hit them before they hit you. You could do this once per round (there were ways to get additional counter attacks), and if successful your attack was resolved before you'd resolve thiers. So you could drop someone before they hit you. But, if they were still up after your attack their hit got resolved.  

I didn't think much about a "Reaction" part of a game round.  But I suppose that does play into things as it can offset the advantage from "i always go first" .   

What limitations or problems did game have from doing Initiative and Reactions this way? 

 

 

Edited November 29 by Renfield

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Renfield said:

I didn't go much in the "Reaction" part of a game round.  But I suppose that does play into things as it can offset the advantage from "i always go first" .   

What limitations or problems did game have from doing Initiative and Reactions this way? 

Well, for the most part initiative wasn't a big deal, unless you got caught off guard, since you could counter-attack, and strike them first. And, depending on your weapon, and what training you had,  you could "keep" your counter attack with a critical success (think special success in BRP terms) to use again later in the round. So initiative was must less important than being good. Low ability and high intitive mostly mean't you died faster. A really skilled character could, in theory, take out a dozen opponents in one round with a lot of counter attacks. It wasn't very unlikely, but it was possible, especially against mooks. 

But UY had a lot of little tweaks and special cases due to the gifts (similar to D&D feats but better), since you had to consider just what combinations of gifts you opponent had. If you weren't careful you could step right into a bad combination.

For instance, I once wrote up a sohei (warrior monk) character who had a lot of empty hand/unarmed combat gifts. If I had played  up his unarmed combat abilities,  no one in their right mind would want to get in close with him, and instead fight at sword's reach.  So, I picked up a spear (a long reach weapon) and took a gift where I could lunge at people, strike them while at long range, then retreat away. I figured that after a couple of rounds of getting poked by a guy who stayed out of range most foes would get annoyed enough to charge me, where I could use a gift to disarm a charging opponent, and then take them apart in a unarmed fight. 

That wasn't just how my character worked either. You had to be careful with any skilled opponent since it was possible to put together some killer combos. What gifts the opponent knew was just as important as how skilled they were, or how high their Agility was. So you might spend some time in combat trying to figure out what gifts (and fighting style) an opponent knew before you committed, just to avoid walking into a nasty combo. The various combat styles/schools consisted on requite skill and attribute ratings plus gifts, so you could learn how to fight someone based on their school. If you were skilled enough you could even create your own school. 

[Mugen]

Another Initiative method I like is from White Wolf's Streer Fighter.

Each character has a set of moves (often materialized as cards) among which he choses one at the start of each round. Each move has various attributes : Speed, Range, Damage, WillPower/Ki cost, etc.

Round resolves in ascending Speed order. Any character can interrupt the acting character at any point if his selected move has a higher speed and he's either targetted by him or targets him. He then starts his turn, and plays normally until he's finished or is interrupted by another player. Then, the previous acting character resumes his turn where it was interrupted.

[NickMiddleton]

Combat Awareness skill. Worst rolls declare action first, but resolve last; best rolls declare last, but resolve first. DEX rank resolves ties in category. Character’s who succeed can act as though they rolled one step worse for a bonus on skills; cooperating actors in the same category aware of each other can choose between them who goes first. Everyone has to roll at the start of combat, to get to roll again takes a whole round, or is required if circumstances radically change (a shell lands; a hidden monster reveals itself etc).

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, Mugen said:

Another Initiative method I like is from White Wolf's Street Fighter.

Ooh, that was a good one. A bit complicated with having to stat up all the maneuvers, but it did make you think, especially with combos, or else you wind up dizzied and defeated.

I believe they tried to adapt the system to work with Werewolf, too.

 

[Renfield]

oh! I had an idea!  here is the "Scenario determines the starting action" idea

Let me explain this new idea I just had =

main scenario list (there could be more, but let's keep it brief)
A - "Breakdown" = Negotiation broke down, now everyone in the room is pulling guns, diving for cover, and shooting.
B - "Assault" = Group rolls up on enemy location, sneaks in and then starts firing, first shots are aimed, but after that its a firefight.
C - "Threat" = One person pulls a gun on the other, they argue and the person with the gun goes to fire, while the other hopes to notice the edge, and fall out of the way or reach for the gun to interfere.
D - "Chase" = its a run-and-gun like a car chase or a foot-chase scene.

So maybe, in each scenario different rules are used to determine who acts first (then after that first round, I think I am ok with typical Initiative roll order stuff)

What makes sense for each? I think there is opportunity for cool 'setup' here, which gives more theme/context to the  scenario at hand!

How can I keep it from getting too complex?
 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Renfield said:

oh! I had an idea!  here is the "Scenario determines the starting action" idea

So maybe, in each scenario different rules are used to determine who acts first (then after that first round, I think I am ok with typical Initiative roll order stuff)

You could do that but, IMO that'ts a bad idea. Reasons why:

1) It usually a bad idea to come up with new rules to cover every situation, since there tend to be limitless possible situations, so you will always have to create new rules. Early D&D/AD&D suffered from this.

For instance what if you add a third faction to any of your examples? What if one of the situations is really a set up, and so on. 

1 hour ago, Renfield said:

What makes sense for each? I think there is opportunity for cool 'setup' here, which gives more theme/context to the  scenario at hand!

IMO, what makes sense is to have one method for initiative that can cover all of the situations.

Now most of the examples listed above had rules for ambushes or holding someone at gunpoint. SO you didn't need to reinvent the wheel to cover those situations.

For example, the Bond RPG had a surprise attack rule that bypassed the normal initiative order, if successful, and the normal draw rules made it very difficult to outdraw someone who already had their gun on you (frankly not quite difficult enough by RAW, but the game is biased towards the players, and the GM could apply a circumstantial modifier, and a clever character could arrange for some sort of distraction to get an edge).

RQ could do much the same with the delay cased by changing your action in a round. So if one side was ready to fight and the other wasn't, one side would get the jump on the other due to the strike rank delay for changing actions during the round. 

 

1 hour ago, Renfield said:

How can I keep it from getting too complex?
 

Use one method, and then apply modifiers to make it more flexible. Say a modifier for ambush/surprise. It's the easiest fix. For instance if you applied a -10 DEX rank modifier to anyone ambushed/caught by surprise (maybe -5 if caught partially by surprise) then you would get the same sort of results without making the game overly complex.

Using the Bond game as an example, there are several possible modifiers to a character's draw roll, and they do a good job of covering most situations. Have to pull your weapon of the holster? That's a -2. Weapon in a aping clip holster, well that's worth +1. Weapon is a small and easy to grasp, that's a +1. Character is injured? Well that can apply a -1 to -3 modifier depending on the severity (and perhaps the location). So the system is very simple, but flexible enough to handle just abotu any sitiuation with modifiers. 

But most of the other games do something similar to be flexible too.