Some Questions Regarding Creating Magic Items

[LivingTriskele]

The wording between pages 158 to 161 regarding the creation of Magic Items is a little confusing. 

First of all, 1 point of Permanent POW per spell must be invested in the item, PLUS 1 point of Permanent POW per level of spell. I just want to clarify—if I invest one level of a spell into an item it costs 2 POW (one for the spell and one for the level of the spell). If I invest two levels of a spell into an item it costs 3 POW (one for the spell and two for the levels of that respective spell). That’s how it reads but it seems to me that it would make more sense to just cost 1 point of Permanent POW per level of spell (which I’m guessing is not correct). I just want to make sure the more expensive interpretation above is correct.

A magic item can hold up to double its maximum power points.

The item’s hit points limit the number of power points it can store. As it takes damage, the maximum power points it can store are reduced. 

Does this mean that if an item has a SIZ of 5 (and therefore 5 hit points), it can store up 10 power points? If its hit points drop to 4, its maximum power points drop to 8?

Thanks in advanced for any clarification given.
 

[Mugen]

I only have the free pdf version of the rules, so I'm not sure if I am refering to the same page as you.

I could find 2 sections about magic items.

• Starting Equipment with Powers ;
• Equipment with Powers 

There's no real consistancy problem between both rules and you could consider the second one is an extension of the first one. Even though, if taken litterally, the POW cost you mention is about starting magic items, and not part of an item creation rule.

But problem is, in other sections of the book, items Hit Points are independent from their SIZ. For instance, a Battle Axe as a SIZ of 1, but 15 Hit Points. A Great Axe has SIZ 2, and also 15 Hit Points. That would make weapons either awful magic items, or excellent ones, depending on which value you use.

Edited Saturday at 12:16 PM by Mugen

[Atgxtg]

12 hours ago, LivingTriskele said:

The wording between pages 158 to 161 regarding the creation of Magic Items is a little confusing. 

First of all, 1 point of Permanent POW per spell must be invested in the item, PLUS 1 point of Permanent POW per level of spell. I just want to clarify—if I invest one level of a spell into an item it costs 2 POW (one for the spell and one for the level of the spell). If I invest two levels of a spell into an item it costs 3 POW (one for the spell and two for the levels of that respective spell). That’s how it reads but it seems to me that it would make more sense to just cost 1 point of Permanent POW per level of spell (which I’m guessing is not correct). I just want to make sure the more expensive interpretation above is correct.

I'm seeing 1 POW per spell, plus per spell level capacity the item can use. 

 

I agree that the other method would make more sense, but the magic item rules in the UGE are unique to it, not from some previous BRP game. 

 

12 hours ago, LivingTriskele said:

A magic item can hold up to double its maximum power points.

Yup. So if your item cost 3 POW to make it can hold 6 POW points. 

12 hours ago, LivingTriskele said:

The item’s hit points limit the number of power points it can store. As it takes damage, the maximum power points it can store are reduced. 

Yup.At least as far as damage taken reduces capacity. 

12 hours ago, LivingTriskele said:

Does this mean that if an item has a SIZ of 5 (and therefore 5 hit points), it can store up 10 power points? If its hit points drop to 4, its maximum power points drop to 8?

No,yes, maybe.

First off, the easy bit...

SIZ and POW points are not necessarily linked. Per the last paragraph on page 159:

The item has a power point capacity equal to your character’s normal power point total after the magic item is created, or the SIZ of the item.

So the SIZ could be independent of the POW cost. This would probably only matter in the case of large items with only minor enchantments. Say a wizard put 4 levels of a  protective spell (1 spell, 4 levesl = 5 POW) on a castle gate (SIZ 20) thn it could store power points equal to the wizard's POW or the gate SIZ 20. Probably the higher of, since the lower of would eliminate the possibility of making  any useful small magic items that could store POW.

The 1 SIZ= 1 hit point rule is really for items that otherwise wouldn't have a hit point value listed, such as clothing or bits of jewelry., and not intentded for ehcanted swords, shields and such.

 

Now the hard bit...

 page 161 possibly contradictions the POW storage limits page 158 by saying:

A magic item can hold up to double its maximum power points. These extra power points vanish as they do with a player character.

But to me that looks like a temporary boost. 

 

My personal preference, and previous BRP game history

Would be to take SIZ out of the POW storage equation entirely, since it it probably won't be a factor for most items, and might just lead to a lot of undesirable behavior by spellcasters, namely enchanting large statues, boulders or cliff faces to use as massive storage batteries. As a GM I really don't want a wizard to build his tower on top of the Rock Gibraltar and spend 2 POW to enchant it to store hundreds or thousands  of POW points, so I'd shut that door.

But then I'd probably go back to an earlier BRP game for item creation (something like 1D6 storage per point of POW) rather than what's in the UGE to prevent wizards from easily making lots of minor (2 POW) items than can store the wizard's POW. 

 

12 hours ago, LivingTriskele said:

Thanks in advanced for any clarification given.
 

Hope this helps.

Edited Saturday at 04:23 PM by Atgxtg

[LivingTriskele]

Thank you both. This is all very helpful. I think I’m just going to compare the rules between UGE and the Big Gold Book and ultimately extrapolate and create my own system.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, LivingTriskele said:

Thank you both. This is all very helpful. I think I’m just going to compare the rules between UGE and the Big Gold Book and ultimately extrapolate and create my own system.

That's probably your best move, unless you have another game to fall back on.

IMO a lot of the BRP rules are sloppy. With the Big Gold Book this was somewhat understandable as it combined rules from many games that were not designed to work with each other, added new stuff on top of that, and incorporated the work on multiple authors. The UGE is probably worse, partly because it was a last minute change in direction rushed out to capitalize on the demise of OGL before someone else snatched up all the disillusioned D&D players, and partly due to some of the rules within relying on other rules that were removed for licencing purposes. Much of what remains contradicts other rules. 

[LivingTriskele]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. In my heart, I still love the game system. Just wish issues like this had been made more clear.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, LivingTriskele said:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I think it's sort of tacitly acknowledged.

Back when the BGB came out we all knew there were problems with it, but we didn't mind so much because the game actually came out (the fear of it going up in a puff of vapor was real, and most of us had previous BRP games to run and could mix n' match what we wanted.

With the UGE people are happy that's it an open licence and that third parties can produce content without the heavy licensing costs of the past that were driving third parties to other games, such as Mythras. In fact many of the people who supported BRP  initially are now more involved with Mythras or Revolution.

1 hour ago, LivingTriskele said:

 

In my heart, I still love the game system. Just wish issues like this had been made more clear.

Well, they sort of were, to the old timers. But that was back in 2008, when the BGB wasn't most players first BRP game.

It's just that BRP isn't all that great as an introductory game for the BRP game system. Pretty much any other BRP game Chaosium is better for new GMs, because they can focus on one setting.. Fewer rules, less confusing rules, fewer variant rules and options to decide between. RQ, Magic World, CoC, Stormbringer, are all better systems to start from. Then add and adapt the bits you like from the BGB/UGE.

But if someone is trying to write something to sell, they can't quite do that. 

Edited Saturday at 07:25 PM by Atgxtg

[LivingTriskele]

That's my problem. I'm trying finish this thing I started for the Design Challenge. Since it made it to the top ten, I feel obligated to myself to see it through. I want to present concise, clearly defined rules for the creation of clockwork wonders. I thought I'd just be able to explain the rules that UGE has to offer, but it's really not that simple. I'll do my best to make my rules as close to canon as possible, but it's looking like customization will be unavoidable. 

[Atgxtg]

9 hours ago, LivingTriskele said:

That's my problem. I'm trying finish this thing I started for the Design Challenge. Since it made it to the top ten, I feel obligated to myself to see it through. I want to present concise, clearly defined rules for the creation of clockwork wonders. I thought I'd just be able to explain the rules that UGE has to offer, but it's really not that simple. I'll do my best to make my rules as close to canon as possible, but it's looking like customization will be unavoidable. 

Yeah, that was what it was looking like. Good Luck.

These things seem to follow a pattern of having one version of the rules on one page, and then another set of somewhat contradictory rules elsewhere. Typically made worse by new rules or changes to older rules that cause additional problems. The older rules are very interconnected and interdependent, so changing something is bound to have consequences. 

The new rules seem to make an item that can be used as a stand alone device, with it's own skill score(?), that use the POW points in the item rather than the character (although the character can spend POW into the item to recharge it, which just seems to make things more complicated than they needed to be, and up the magic on hand considerably, since every item will be storing the creators POW (or more for high SIZ). The permanently active items are pretty nasty too. 

 

Ultimately I think you'll just have to decide between whatever conflicting rules you run across.