6th Ed Pendragon : Confused by combat Matrix

[WindyHoof47]

On page 133 of the core, can anyone please explain what the n/a results actually mean ?

I'm asking because the results for fail on both combatants is 'neither suffer any damage ' 

Is n/a then not the same as 'neither suffer any damage ' ?

What is the difference between n/a & combatants lose ?

Thanks in anticipation

 

 

 

[Walts]

I have the Starter Set, which has the following layout (ie no N/A listed?)

... but I'll assume it's the same table? If so, the "N/A" ("-") cross ref situations can never happen?

For example, you can never have a Character with a Success and the Opponent with a Critical Success, and so on for all the other "-" or "N/A" cross references.

Hope that makes sense! .:. Walts

[Morien]

9 minutes ago, Walts said:

For example, you can never have a Character with a Success and the Opponent with a Critical Success, and so on for all the other "-" or "N/A" cross references.

Exactly this.

If your opponent gets a Critical Success, your Success gets downgraded to a Partial Success. Hence, Critical Success vs. Success is Not Applicable (N/A).

Same with Partial Success vs. Failure/Fumble. In order to get a Partial success you have to roll a success that is worse than your opponent's, so you can't get that result if the opponent rolled a failure/fumble instead.

[WindyHoof47]

Appreciate your responses. I'm a bit of a slow learner with some rules!  

It's very similar to the RQ matrix

[Mugen]

I don't see the point with downgrading successes.

What is the benefit ?

[Morien]

2 minutes ago, Mugen said:

I don't see the point with downgrading successes.

What is the benefit ?

Because that is how they are defined.

A partial success is a success but your opponent has a better (higher value) success. Crits count as 20.

Thus if your skill is 20 and you roll 18, and I with my skill 10 roll 10 (a critical so value 20), your roll downgrades to a partial success because 18<20.

[WindyHoof47]

Once again forgive my lack of  comprehension Morien but why does a crit count as 20?  Isn't a 20 a fumble ? 

Really struggling with this!  

[Morien]

32 minutes ago, WindyHoof47 said:

Once again forgive my lack of  comprehension Morien but why does a crit count as 20?  Isn't a 20 a fumble ? 

Really struggling with this!  

Sorry, what I meant was: a critical counts as a "success of a value of 20" for the comparison purposes.

So if your skill is 19, and my skill is 20(+5), you roll a 19 (a critical) and I roll 18+5 = 23 (also a critical), they both count as 20s, and hence it is a crit-crit tie, 20=20.

Or if your skill is 10 and you roll a 10, a critical, and with my skill of 20 roll a 19 (success, but not a critical), your critical roll counts as a 20 in the "which one is a better success" and thus wins over my 19 (non-critical): 20 is greater than 19. And hence degrading my success to a mere partial success.

I think this may be a bit of a holdover to earlier editions which didn't have a result matrix like the 6th edition (it had similar results, but it wasn't represented as the matrix), and hence it was necessary to clarify that ANY critical would beat ANY mere success regardless of the actual roll value, whilst being equal to any other critical.

Did I manage to explain it? 🙂

Edited December 30, 2024 by Morien

[WindyHoof47]

Thanks for your response : the thing that is vexing me is on the combat matrix  : a critical vrs a success = N.A ?

I was under the impression that a critical result beats all results unless opponent scores a critical

 

[Morien]

17 minutes ago, WindyHoof47 said:

Thanks for your response : the thing that is vexing me is on the combat matrix  : a critical vrs a success = N.A ?

I was under the impression that a critical result beats all results unless opponent scores a critical

 

N/A = Not Applicable. In other words, this is an impossible result, it does not exist, you cannot end up with that result.

This is because of the way a success and a partial success are defined.

A success is a successful roll that is BETTER than your opponent's roll. Since no success is better than a critical success, they get downgraded to a partial success (i.e. you succeeded in your roll, but the opponent's roll was better).

Let's assume your skill is 15 and my skill is 20. I roll 13, you roll 14. We both succeeded in our rolls, but since it was an opposed contest, we need to compare the results. Since yours was 14, and 14 is higher than 13, yours is a success and my 13 is a mere partial success, since it is a worse success than yours. Hence, you would find the correct result at Success-Partial Success (or Partial Success - Success).

Now, if you rolled a 15, a critical success, and I rolled 18, a success. Since criticals (comparison value 20) always beat normal successes, my success is not as good as your critical sucess, and thus again my 18 is a mere partial success. Thus, the correct Matrix result is "Critical - Partial Success". You literally cannot get a "Critical - Success" since a success never beats a critical and hence always gets downgraded to a partial success.

Did that help?

Edited December 30, 2024 by Morien

[WindyHoof47]

Yes it did help. Thanks for your patience and your elucidation! 

[Morien]

Happy to help! 🙂