BRP Superpowers

[Lloyd Dupont]

Anyone using Superpower from BRP? 
I am redoing my monster for MoM, and when they have superpower - typically angels, demons, djinns and their ilk - trying to use BRP superpowers... unlike Mythras superpower which are... reasonable? BRP power seems unbounded and also not quite clear sometimes.... I guess much is left at the GM discretion?

For a particular example: Armor
Base Range: Self
Duration: Always active, or 10 combat rounds
Character Point Cost: 1 per level per type
Power Point Cost: None, or 1 per level per 10 combat rounds
Each level provides 1 point of armor against a particular type of attack. 

so... is it free to cast or not? why not use the free version? Also no particular limit... I could go all in and give my angel 20 Kinetic Armor?

I thought it was 1 point for level 1, 2 points for level 2... for a total of say, 21 for Armor 6, but that seems to fly in the face of other like Invisibility, also cost 1 per level. Which I think mean 10 points to buy for size 10, not 55..., i.e. 6 point to buy Armor 6.

Anyway what's your experience and home rules with superpowers?

Edited December 13, 2024 by Lloyd Dupont

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Anyway what's your experience and home rules with superpowers?

I've played (quite a lot) with Superworld (in Worlds of Wonder box, then Superworld box), but not since.

My personal feeling is that BRP is not adapted for Supers games (except perhaps the lower levels).

[DreadDomain]

I find the superpower sections in BRP a bit hard to follow and point costs not necessarily well balanced. When it comes to a power construction system, it falls short of other available system. By the way, I believe this works better as a basis: 

 

[DreadDomain]

9 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Anyway, what's your experience and home rules with superpowers?

Sorry, I did not answer your question in the end. I have very little experience playing with BRP's superpowers because in almost all attempts, I couldn't pass the stage of creating characters with it. Most of the time it leads to questions and issues that made me use another system instead (mainly Champions). However, I really want at some point successfully playing Super BRP. I am not sure I would end up using UGE for that and might use Unified Powers (linked above), or Destined or Elder Godlike (not easy to find nowadays).

Darn, now I've got the urge to create a few characters in all of these systems.

Edited December 14, 2024 by DreadDomain

[Lloyd Dupont]

1 hour ago, DreadDomain said:

Sorry, I did not answer your question in the end. I have very little experience playing with BRP's superpowers because in almost all attempts, I couldn't pass the stage of creating characters with it. Most of the time it leads to questions and issues that made me use another system instead (mainly Champions). However, I really want at some point successfully playing Super BRP. I am not sure I would end up using UGE for that and might use Unified Powers (linked above), or Destined or Elder Godlike (not easy to find nowadays).

Darn, now I've got the urge to create a few characters in all of these systems.

Destined look super goood.

I only have one complaint (not from playing it, by reading it, oh and also use it in my untested - much - yet far, creating my MoM monsters, is the Blast (aka Energy Projection) power. It doesn't quite work well IHMO when use with non human character with very high characteristics...

[DreadDomain]

58 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Destined look super goood.

I only have one complaint (not from playing it, by reading it, oh and also use it in my untested - much - yet far, creating my MoM monsters, is the Blast (aka Energy Projection) power. It doesn't quite work well IHMO when use with non human character with very high characteristics...

I have created quite a few characters in Destined here: 

I like how it works but as you can see in the thread, I ended up tweaking it and stretching it into much higher power territory. If you use it for lower power characters (Spider-Man at the top end), I think it works well as is.

Of the 4 power systems above, I would probably choose Destined or Unified Powers, then Elder Godlike and UGE would be last. I would need to dust off Superworld to assess where it would fit but it would definitely be above UGE.

 

 

[Lloyd Dupont]

2 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

I have created quite a few characters in Destined here: 

I like how it works but as you can see in the thread, I ended up tweaking it and stretching it into much higher power territory. If you use it for lower power characters (Spider-Man at the top end), I think it works well as is.

Of the 4 power systems above, I would probably choose Destined or Unified Powers, then Elder Godlike and UGE would be last. I would need to dust off Superworld to assess where it would fit but it would definitely be above UGE.

 

 

mmm.... I checked out and can't see the changes...

anyway "my personal pet peeves" is the monster with superpower in my stories would mostly be demon lords, angels, djinns, efreets.. and most have a POW beyond 20... But I guess I can simply not extrapolate the effect tables beyond 22 (where most stop) and keep it as is... I guess that will work ^_^

 

[Atgxtg]

20 hours ago, Kloster said:

I've played (quite a lot) with Superworld (in Worlds of Wonder box, then Superworld box), but not since.

I think the boxed set of Superowrld has the best Superpower rules in any BRP game and would go to that rather than use the version in BRP. Plus the Superworld rules were modfied to make them work better for comic book heroes as opposed to the normal deadliness of BRP.

IMO that's sort of the case with most of what's in the BGB or UGE. The original sources are usually more comprehensive and better suited toward their purposes so why not use them instead, if you have them?

20 hours ago, Kloster said:

My personal feeling is that BRP is not adapted for Supers games (except perhaps the lower levels).

I agree that BRP isn't well adapted to Superheros. Part of the problem is that with all the different forms of attack, it is too easy to run into someone with an attack you have no defense against, and just get slaughtered.

So if the Heater shows up, and zaps Tank Man (30 point kinetic armor) with a 3D6 heat beam. Tank Man's goose is cooked.

I was thinking of houseruling a fix for this where armor costs doubles but provides half protection to other forms of attack. That way a new form of attack doesn't tear though a group of PCs.

 

[RosenMcStern]

On 12/14/2024 at 3:46 AM, Lloyd Dupont said:

I only have one complaint (not from playing it, by reading it, oh and also use it in my untested - much - yet far, creating my MoM monsters, is the Blast (aka Energy Projection) power. It doesn't quite work well IHMO when use with non human character with very high characteristics...

Red Moon Rising is a setting where the main heroes have the ability to shoot blasts of elemental energy. It features battles where magicians block each other's discharges with their own elemental powers:

https://redmoonrising.org/comic/page-294/

https://redmoonrising.org/comic/page-302/

The rules for elemental magic are well tested, and can be ported easily to BRP. Unfortunately the game is not yet available to the public as the Kickstarter is not yet completely fulfilled, but... a couple of individuals down there in Queensland have received the PDF. Maybe you could ask them?

[Kloster]

20 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I think the boxed set of Superowrld has the best Superpower rules in any BRP game

Fully agreed.

20 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Plus the Superworld rules were modfied to make them work better for comic book heroes as opposed to the normal deadliness of BRP.

Same.

20 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Part of the problem is that with all the different forms of attack, it is too easy to run into someone with an attack you have no defense against, and just get slaughtered.

It is only a small part of the problem. For me, one other (with Superworld boxed set) is that you can create a character with some big powers that have a cost of 0 (zero!) by taking 6 limitations of -1/6th.

Another is the non existence of non lethal damage (totally non genre).

[Kloster]

20 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I was thinking of houseruling a fix for this where armor costs doubles but provides half protection to other forms of attack. That way a new form of attack doesn't tear though a group of PCs.

Champions (the Hero system has been built upon Champions, a Superhero game), you have only 3 type of attack: Physical, Energy and Mental (let's forget the separation of Resistant and non Resistant for now). What makes a difference is the special effect: An arrow is not a bullet or a choke hold, but all 3 are physical (in that case, killing) attack and a punch is a normal physical attack. You thus can have only 3 types of defense that cost roughly half the cost of the attack they protect. That way, you still may have completely no protection versus 1 type of attack, but it would be your concept.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

It is only a small part of the problem. For me, one other (with Superworld boxed set) is that you can create a character with some big powers that have a cost of 0 (zero!) by taking 6 limitations of -1/6th.

Whoa! I've got to double check that loophole! Not until after coffee though. That one's worthy of Murphy's Rules.

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

Another is the non existence of non lethal damage (totally non genre).

Bingo. And that is what the Superworld Boxed Set addressed. So as long as the opponents were at a reasonable level character death was rare.  So the Hulk doesn't kill Iron Man or Captain America, just knocks them unconscious and maybe cracks rib, just like in the comics.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

Champions (the Hero system has been built upon Champions, a Superhero game), you have only 3 type of attack: Physical, Energy and Mental (let's forget the separation of Resistant and non Resistant for now). What makes a difference is the special effect: An arrow is not a bullet or a choke hold, but all 3 are physical (in that case, killing) attack and a punch is a normal physical attack. You thus can have only 3 types of defense that cost roughly half the cost of the attack they protect. That way, you still may have completely no protection versus 1 type of attack, but it would be your concept.

Yes, but HERO system is just much more forgiving across the board.  There is the default resistances to damage and difference between normal damage and killing damage, and the innate resistance to the former. If the Hulk get's lucky and clips Spider-Man then Spidey will probably be stunned, maybe unconscious, and probably suffered a broken bone or two (which he will complaint about during every fight for the next six issues or so), but he probably won't die. Even if knocked to 0 Body Spikey is dying but not dead yet.

Superheroes aside, just shooting an average person with a .45 will yield noticeably different results. In HERO, 2d6-1 will hurt, but not stop the character, unless you are using hit locations and strike the vitals or head.  In BRP 1D10+2 will probably (70%)  be a major wound with an even higher chance of disabling a hit location. And that's before factoring in for impales and critical. 

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Superheroes aside, just shooting an average person with a .45 will yield noticeably different results. In HERO, 2d6-1 will hurt, but not stop the character, unless you are using hit locations and strike the vitals or head.  In BRP 1D10+2 will probably (70%)  be a major wound with an even higher chance of disabling a hit location. And that's before factoring in for impales and critical.

For Hero (whatever version) 2D6-1 KA means an average of 6 BOD and 16 STUN, which means, without armor, target stunned (looses next action) and more than half of body and 3/4 of STUN are lost, not counting hit locations. Probability of loosing all STUN is around 30%.

But you're drifting, because if I think Hero is better for Super games (in part because built on a Super game), BRP is better for non super (because in part it is built from a non super game), and your .45 is specifically in the street level game.

[Lloyd Dupont]

6 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

Red Moon Rising is a setting where the main heroes have the ability to shoot blasts of elemental energy. It features battles where magicians block each other's discharges with their own elemental powers:

https://redmoonrising.org/comic/page-294/

https://redmoonrising.org/comic/page-302/

The rules for elemental magic are well tested, and can be ported easily to BRP. Unfortunately the game is not yet available to the public as the Kickstarter is not yet completely fulfilled, but... a couple of individuals down there in Queensland have received the PDF. Maybe you could ask them?

red moon rising story looks cool 🙂

ha! Contrary to popular belief, I dunno all the QLD players ^_^

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

For Hero (whatever version) 2D6-1 KA means an average of 6 BOD and 16 STUN, which means, without armor, target stunned (looses next action) and more than half of body and 3/4 of STUN are lost, not counting hit locations. Probability of loosing all STUN is around 30%.

Yeah but in BRP they average a major wound or disabled location. 

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

But you're drifting, because if I think Hero is better for Super games (in part because built on a Super game), BRP is better for non super (because in part it is built from a non super game), and your .45 is specifically in the street level game.

Exactly. I'm just illustrating the "whys"  of it.

Basically the gritty, more deadly combat favored by BRP games is a bad fit for most Superhero settings. 

[Saki]

If superheroes work so poorly in BRP I wish there'd been some more substantial revision between Big Gold Book and UGE. 🫤

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Saki said:

If superheroes work so poorly in BRP I wish there'd been some more substantial revision between Big Gold Book and UGE. 🫤

"work so poorly"?
I guess Obi-Wan might say, "from a certain point of view" -- https://www.wildcardsworld.com/the-first-wild-cards-day-or-the-game-that-ate-my-life/
(an essay on Superworld, from GRRM (he of Game of Thrones; that RPG went on to launch the "Wild Cards" shared-universe novels and short-stories)

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Saki said:

If superheroes work so poorly in BRP I wish there'd been some more substantial revision between Big Gold Book and UGE. 🫤

But if they did that then BRP wouldn't have worked good for something else. It's a question of trade offs. Game systems that do Superheroes good tend to lack lethal combat, and so mightnot give you the right experience for a fantasy setting or gritty detective game. 

The thing is good Superhero RPGs have rules that are designed to handle Superheroes, or lat east  were customized and adapted to Superheroes. That's true for any genre or style of play. RPG rules are't really one size fits all. They have to be tailored to fit different settings.Chaosiums stand alone RPGs generally did/do that.

The BGB and UGE were not designed as stand lone RPGs to cover a specfic setting or genre, they are a toolkit with bits cobbled together from previous BRP games that were never intended to work together, especially the various Powers. When the BGB came out, all of us BRP fans knew that. We alos knew that if we needed a fix for something in the BGB we could go to the parent game, or sibling game for it. I know that if Port over a few things from Superworld it works better. But then I also know of a few Superhero RPGs that work better than Superworld.

 

 

 

 

[Atgxtg]

20 minutes ago, g33k said:

"work so poorly"?
I guess Obi-Wan might say, "from a certain point of view" -- https://www.wildcardsworld.com/the-first-wild-cards-day-or-the-game-that-ate-my-life/
(an essay on Superworld, from GRRM (he of Game of Thrones; that RPG went on to launch the "Wild Cards" shared-universe novels and short-stories)

Yeah. But they were using the Superworld boxed set, not the UGE or even Worlds of Wonder.

Even so,  Wildcards isn't a typical four color comic book setting. It's almost as if they started playing and the world adapted to how the powers worked in game. Case in point the example of a Superstrong character who gets knocked back when hit by a speeding car makes perfect sense in Superworld where you'd compare damage to SIZ on the resistance table.

Too bad the Wildcards RPG supplements were for GURPS.

[g33k]

1 minute ago, Atgxtg said:

...

Too bad the Wildcards RPG supplements were for GURPS.

IIRC, the "Wild Cards" setting has been through 3-4 different gamesystems.
I was hoping Chaosium could lure it back with a new edition of Superworld, but Steve passed away 😢 before he could get that project very far advanced.

[AndreJarosch]

2 hours ago, Saki said:

If superheroes work so poorly in BRP I wish there'd been some more substantial revision between Big Gold Book and UGE. 🫤

Play Street Level (Batman, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, regular X-Men) type of Superheroes. 
Don´t expect a d100 system to work without flaws for highter power kind of superheroes (Dr. Strange, higher X-Men, or Superman, Captain Marvel). 

Use "Higher Starting Characteristics" Option (p. 10). 
Use "Increased Personal Skill Points" (p. 16)
Use "Superhuman" Power level for PC superheroes and certain Boss Level Vilains, Epic for non-Boss-Level Villains, Heroic for normal villains, and Normal for anyone else. 
Don´t use Hit locations. 
 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

IIRC, the "Wild Cards" setting has been through 3-4 different gamesystems.
I was hoping Chaosium could lure it back with a new edition of Superworld, but Steve passed away 😢 before he could get that project very far advanced.

I think it would be in much the same boat as Thieves World, Strombringer or Ringworld. Liscining issues aside, it's a franchise that was big in the 1980s-1990s. No so much today.

[Atgxtg]

56 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

Play Street Level (Batman, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, regular X-Men) type of Superheroes. 
Don´t expect a d100 system to work without flaws for highter power kind of superheroes (Dr. Strange, higher X-Men, or Superman, Captain Marvel). 

It's not all that great at Street level without some serious tweaks. Basically, in BRP,  if a bad guy takes a tommy gun to Batman, the caped crusader is in serious trouble of becoming the Bat-stain. BTW, the original DC Heroes RPG made killing attacks a specific action precisely for that reason. So most attacks wouldn't kill.  The Superwolrd boxed set tweaked the hit point and damage rules to do something similar. So it can work, you just have to put more effort into setting it up.

The question is, why?

I mean if someone wants to run a full on four color comic book setting there are much better options to do so. I can think of at least a half dozen RPGs better suited for running Superheroes that BRP or even Superworld. Champions for instance (the game Steve was trying to see if he emulate with Superworld). So I think someone should use BRP for Superheroes only if they have a good reason to. Otherwise use something better suited for it.

The only reason why I would use BRP or even Superworld for superheroes would be if they were better suited for whatever campaign I had in mind. For example, the last time I used Superworld was to play a campaign set  in the Wildcards setting, which is handled remarkably well. In fact it handled it better than GURPS did.  Even with my warped character concept.  

 

P.S. > This isn't a weakness of the BRP rules, just noting what is the best tool for the job. It's why I've often posted that BRP wouldn't be my first choice to run most settings. I wouldn't use the UGE to run a campaign set in Glorantha for the same reason. Every version of RuneQuest does Glorantha better. So does most versions of HeroWars/HeroQuest. It not that BRPG is bad, just that RQ and HQ were designed for Glorantha, and BRP wasn't. In fact to adapt BRP to GLroantha would mean undoing most of what was done to RQ to make it BRP!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

I think it would be in much the same boat as Thieves World, Strombringer or Ringworld. Liscining issues aside, it's a franchise that was big in the 1980s-1990s. No so much today.

I think it'd depend on whether they could loop GRRM back in.
That's a name that's likely to be worth quite a few sales...