Question about binding a Summoned Elemental

[Quintin]

Hi everyone

I'm relatively new to BRP.

This question came to me from a player and I am uncertain how to answer it. So I was hopeing the collective experience in this forum might help me decide how to rule this.

There is no description within the "Summon Elemental" Sorcery on how such a binding would work. The only guidance I have found so far was the binding in the "Summon Demon" Sorcery. But the "Summon Demon" Sorcery also entails learning the true name of a demon and due to learning this, being able to send it back to its home plane and calling it back.

Do you think having bound an elemental, a summoner should be able to send the elemental to its home plane and call it back in a similar manner as with the bound demon? Or is there more material on binding in the newest edition of BRP I might have overlooked?

[Ravenheart87]

The sorcery spells are a bit messed up in BRP. I recommend getting Magic World's Advanced Sorcery book, which has proper rules for summoning demons and elementals - and proper MP costs.

[Quintin]

4 hours ago, Ravenheart87 said:

The sorcery spells are a bit messed up in BRP. I recommend getting Magic World's Advanced Sorcery book, which has proper rules for summoning demons and elementals - and proper MP costs.

Thank you for the advice. I will look into it. Though having to buy another book just so I can use the material in the one I already bought is a bit frustrating.

[Saki]

27 minutes ago, Quintin said:

Though having to buy another book just so I can use the material in the one I already bought is a bit frustrating.

This seems to be a consistent theme across the BRP and Runequest lines.

[Atgxtg]

Another way to handle binding, from Strombringer, is to just consider it an option at the end of a summing. The elemental can be bound if the summoner beats it in a POW vs. POW roll, but if set free if he fails.

1 hour ago, Quintin said:

Thank you for the advice. I will look into it. Though having to buy another book just so I can use the material in the one I already bought is a bit frustrating.

Yes.

Te thing is the BRP rulebook (bot the Big Gold Book version and the newer UGE) was cobbled together with various bits from previous RPGs released by Chaosium years ago. So it is less of a RPG and more of a tookit for the system. Back in 2008 when the BGB came out it was well recieved as many of the games it was based on were long out of print, and the had rules spread out over multiple supplements. So to fans of old CHasoium RPGs such as RuneQuest, Stormbringer, and Worlds of Wonder, the new BRP book was a blessing.

As a stand alone RPG it leave a lot to be desired. Since the rules were taken from various other RPGs they do not all work well with each other, and this lead to compatiblity issues.. Then rules were changed or added and that lead to more problems. Now to someone who has access to some of the older stuff, the solutions to most of the problems are usually easy. In fact most of the problems don't exist for those people because they already know what was designed to work together and what wasn't.  The rules are over complicated, contradictory, and even dysfunctional in places. Now again, back in 2008 this wasn't an issue as anyone who was interesting in BRP probably already owned one or more of it's parent games and could fall back on those for the answers to any problems.

But now we are seeing a lot of new gamers (hurray!) who pick up the UGE as their first BRP book, and it's got a rather tough learning curve. The rules are over complicated by optional rules, contradictory, and in some places dysfunctional. It's a great toolkit, but a terrible introduction. It's not entirely Chaoisum fault either, as they were planning on going in a different direction but had to rush this out in response to HASBRO/WOtC alienating the D&D fanbase, and fans looking for alternatives.

 

But I'd recommend buying/trying just about any other BRP game, before the BGB/UGE. Preferable one of the older games, as they seem to have fewer issues.  

 

 

[Quintin]

13 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

But I'd recommend buying/trying just about any other BRP game, before the BGB/UGE. Preferable one of the older games, as they seem to have fewer issues.  

Can you recomend anything in particular, where I can have modern soldiers explore a Fantasy world?

Well I guess the Player that posed the initial question is from the fantasy world. I'm just a bit worried that having the ability to call an elemental, which is immune to non magical damage, might be a tad to powerful. I was alright with the summoning, as it takes a couple of rounds and therefore requires preparation.

While I still intend to take a look at that Advanced Sorcery, I might just homebrew elementals that do not have the immunity as a simple solution.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Quintin said:

Can you recomend anything in particular, where I can have modern soldiers explore a Fantasy world?

Not off hand. What I suggest would be to grab a fantasy RPG and then just port over modern weapons stats.

Magic World is the obvious choice for the FRPG these days, not because it's better than the rest, but because it's available. Strombringer/Elric! was probably the best game for summoning, but sorcerers were very high powered, and the game is no longer available. MAgic World with Advanced Sorcery is probably as close as you can get to Strombringer, and might even be better in some ways.

 

For the modern weapon stats you can use the stats from the UGE (since you already have it) but better stats are in the Call of Cthulhu line. I especially recommend the Investigator Weapon series of supplements (probably Volume 2 Modern Day for your needs) fromSixtystone Press  for Firearm stats. THey are probably the best firearm stats available for BRP. But the stats from the UGE are okay. Plus you can google firearm stats for Call of Cthulu to get the basics.

1 hour ago, Quintin said:

Well I guess the Player that posed the initial question is from the fantasy world. I'm just a bit worried that having the ability to call an elemental, which is immune to non magical damage, might be a tad to powerful. I was alright with the summoning, as it takes a couple of rounds and therefore requires preparation.

Yeah, that was usually the problem when mixing that type of magic into a low magic setting. Those who had such magic had the potential to run roughshod over those who didn't. You're going to have that to some degree no matter what magic you use. Even something an innocuous as Heal 1 can have a major impact if one side has it and the other does not. 

You can counterbalance that somewhat with technology and with being careful with how much magic you let in and how powerful you let it be.

1 hour ago, Quintin said:

While I still intend to take a look at that Advanced Sorcery,

Advanced Sorcery is for Magic World, but like all BRP supplments is mostly (90%?) compatible with the UGE. That is you should be able to follow everything in it, but you might have to tweak a couple of things to make it work.

Advanced Sorcery covers several magic systems (mostly from previous games) and holds up much better than the magic in the UGE, in part because that's all is has to do is cover the magic systems. 

1 hour ago, Quintin said:

 

 

I might just homebrew elementals that do not have the immunity as a simple solution.

That might help if you can justify it.

One thing that might help is that elemental could be vulnerable to the appropriate natural elements. For instance dumping a bucket of water on an fire elemental might extinguish it, as could dumping a pile of dirt on it, or even a strong wind. The trick would be in using enough. If I were to run that I'd use opposing SIZ (or STR for wind) on the resistance table, or have the natural stuff do damage based on SIZ. 

Another trick you could use is assume that whatever magic used to bring hte PCs to the magical world infuses tem with some residual magical energy and that their weapons count as magic. At least until the energy fades away (say in POW days/weeks/hours, whatever you want). That way they get some time to adapt, and might be able to reset their buffer by going back home.

 

In my own experience we did have some troubles like this with elemental in Stormbringer. Another PC stepped into a argument/insult match between two sorcerers and had a fire elemental sent after him for the effort. My character was surprised that the other PC mouthed off to the (Pan Tangian) sorcerer, and I was curious to see what the other PC had up his sleeve to deal with the elemental, but he had nothing and just ran around on fire screaming. Eventually, my sorcerer sent a water elemental to stop it (mutual annihilation) just to show the other sorcerer that I could do it. But otherwise, it would have been a terminal problem for the other PC. And in you're wondering, there  there was an in game reason why I didn't care much in another PC got barbecued. 

 

[Quintin]

Thanks again for the advice on additional reading material. I'll make sure to consult it.

13 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

That might help if you can justify it.

I don't know of a written rule or law, that an elementals body, especially in the realm of the living, needs to only interact with magic.

One way to go about it would be elemtentals needing to have some kind of mortal body to exist in realms other than their own in the first place.

Or they need such a body to be able to interact with anything that is not magical in nature themselves.

13 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

One thing that might help is that elemental could be vulnerable to the appropriate natural elements. For instance dumping a bucket of water on an fire elemental might extinguish it, as could dumping a pile of dirt on it, or even a strong wind. The trick would be in using enough. If I were to run that I'd use opposing SIZ (or STR for wind) on the resistance table, or have the natural stuff do damage based on SIZ. 

Or something like that would work too.

13 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Another trick you could use is assume that whatever magic used to bring hte PCs to the magical world infuses tem with some residual magical energy and that their weapons count as magic. At least until the energy fades away (say in POW days/weeks/hours, whatever you want). That way they get some time to adapt, and might be able to reset their buffer by going back home.

That is a nice Idea, not what I am concerned about, since the players already got some homebrew magic allowing them to fire of elemental bullets. I'm more worried about my NPC's being ineffectual unless they have magic, raising the danger of the campaign by too much too early.

13 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

And in you're wondering, there  there was an in game reason why I didn't care much in another PC got barbecued.

Nice :D

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, Quintin said:

Thanks again for the advice on additional reading material. I'll make sure to consult it.

You're welcome. Don't go crazy. There is a lot of BRP stuff out there, and even more that isn't out there , anymore. It's just that any of BRP parent systems will have tigher, easier to use rules than the UGE. 

We kind of need a BRP core ruleset. Something without all the options.

7 hours ago, Quintin said:

I don't know of a written rule or law, that an elementals body, especially in the realm of the living, needs to only interact with magic.

Usually it's assumed that elements need their element. It more like they are a manifestation of the element that has sentience and thus access to magic, not the reverse.

7 hours ago, Quintin said:

One way to go about it would be elemtentals needing to have some kind of mortal body to exist in realms other than their own in the first place.

Yes. That would be the element that it inhabits. For instance if you wanted to summon a fire elemental you would need to give it a flame to inhabit or maybe just something to burn. It would be a nice paradigm to work with, but it would require casters to have access to said element. 

7 hours ago, Quintin said:

Or they need such a body to be able to interact with anything that is not magical in nature themselves.

Okay, But I think for what you want, they would need to have cohesion. For instance a sword can't hurt or otherwise damage water, but tossing a cut of water into the blender and putting it high can get the water to foam up, and maybe break up a water elemental?  If you want to go that route, you could give elementals Armor Points (somehow based on their SIZ) and let lots of damage break them up.

7 hours ago, Quintin said:

Or something like that would work too.

That is a nice Idea, not what I am concerned about, since the players already got some homebrew magic allowing them to fire of elemental bullets. I'm more worried about my NPC's being ineffectual unless they have magic, raising the danger of the campaign by too much too early.

Well that depends on what sort of defense the PCs have. In most BRP games, characters are always vulnerable to attacks. Even a lowly dagger can kill most characters with the right rolls and options. Magic usually has limits based on the POW the character have, so you can wear them down over time. Just what sort of weapon and armor discrepancies do you have going on?

. 

7 hours ago, Quintin said:

Nice 😄

No, the character was Melnibonean, and they are about as far from nice as you can get.

[Mugen]

I think the answer depends on how you see elementals' nature.

Are they just another type of demon ? That is, sentient extraplanar beings with specific character traits, behaviour and appearance, but with powers solely related to their element ?

Or are they just impersonal manifestations of that element, where each elemental is identical to another one of the same element and size ? Are there Fire dogs, birds, humans, horses, or just one kind of sentient flame ?

They don't even have to be extra-planar beings, and just be spirits that inhabit matter and "awakened" by magicians.

I can think of at least 5 different systems based on BRP and close equivalents, each with different answers. Elric of Melniboné (Mongoose's version of that setting) didn't even had permanent binding. You made pacts with Demons or Elementals, and you had to spend MPs to make those last.

Myhras even differentiated elementals and elemental spirits.

Edited December 19, 2024 by Mugen

[Quintin]

18 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Well that depends on what sort of defense the PCs have. In most BRP games, characters are always vulnerable to attacks. Even a lowly dagger can kill most characters with the right rolls and options. Magic usually has limits based on the POW the character have, so you can wear them down over time. Just what sort of weapon and armor discrepancies do you have going on?

 

It's a Stargate setup. Thats why my players chose the P90 as their standard weapon. But they do have Grenades and plastic explosives. As for armor they are wearing bullet proof vests and heavy clothing for the most part. Though they do now want to pull too much attraction to their weaponry as people of this world would be very interessted in aquiring these weapons. Their Modern armor has been magicaly modified to look like normal Armor by a lonesome wizard in space that has a stargate in his cellar and is teaching them the magic (elemental magic which is homebrew and basicaly allows you to wield an element as you see fit as long as you have the PP) they know.

The NPC's of the world are reduced to mideval Weapons and armor. Allthough I have integrated mutations and superpowers to some extend. Wielders of those are very rare and have not yet been properly introduced, although that is going to change soon. There is magic and sorcery as well as psychic powers, again more of a rare thing though.

And then there is lots of Monsters in that world of course, most of it is homebrew as BRP:UGE gives you only so much to work with.

So there definitely are enemies that can handle an elemental, even if it has invulnerability to nonmagical damage. My concern is more, that those enemies for the most part are rare and not interessted in the PCs yet. Another concern is that the PC with the ability to summon elementals would become a prime target for enemies with braincells.

 

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

I think the answer depends on how you see elementals' nature.

Are they just another type of demon ? That is, sentient extraplanar beings with specific character traits, behaviour and appearance, but with powers solely related to their element ?

Or are they just impersonal manifestations of that element, where each elemental is identical to another one of the same element and size ? Are there Fire dogs, birds, humans, horses, or just one kind of sentient flame ?

They don't even have to be extra-planar beings, and just be spirits that inhabit matter and "awakened" by magicians.

I can think of at least 5 different systems based on BRP and close equivalents, each with different answers. Elric of Melniboné (Mongoose's version of that setting) didn't even had permanent binding. You made pacts with Demons or Elementals, and you had to spend MPs to make those last.

Myhras even differentiated elementals and elemental spirits.

I have established that there are realms for the elements. Though I had planned on those not being traversable for people. Taking the realm of fire as an example, I like the Idea that there is only one fire, which is the realm of fire. if there is a way opening from the realm of fire to the peoples realm, parts of that one fire slip through, or in the case of summoning are pulled through.

Extending on the Ideas juggled with @Atgxtg, those parts would need to be manifested with some kind of body, as fire dies without something to burn, water sinks into the ground, wind disperses and earth crumbles otherwise.

I think there is some potential in a, in my setting ultimately false, theory of the creation of the world, with parts of these elements crumbling into space, although that would just be a theory some NPC's would persue and far from the truth.

In acctuality the nature of the material word forces the sentience of the elements into a material body. Which would disprove the theory I just mentioned, which again I like since the theory is false in my setting. To build the body the element would need to use its own power.

Here again a nice chance to integrate the spirit aspect you mentioned, as an elemental that is too weak to build its own body, might become exactly that, but with little to no way to directly influence the material world.

Now if you had someone be able to collect those spirit and force them into a living body... I did not know before I started this threat, how much I want a fire deer to wreak havoc.

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, Quintin said:

 

It's a Stargate setup.... Their Modern armor has been magicaly modified to look like normal Armor by a lonesome wizard in space that has a stargate in his cellar and is teaching them the magic (elemental magic which is homebrew and basicaly allows you to wield an element as you see fit as long as you have the PP) they know.

The NPC's of the world are reduced to mideval Weapons and armor. ....

I trimmed it down to keep the post small. Based on the above then I don't think you have to much to worry about.

• First off modern body armor isn't invulnerable to medieval weapons. Quite the opposite. Most ballistic armor isn't all that good against anything other than bullets. 
• Secondly, ballistic armor is designed to break up to absorb the impact (much like a car's bumper), and most vests are rated for three hits, and then they start to degrade in protection (as if you could reduce the AV ratings).. Some of the high end ones can take six hits before degrading. 

So spears and arrows should be dangerous enough to keep the players honest.

Oh, and they probably don't need a wizard to enchant their armor to look "normal". The ballistic shirts would look very normal, and the heavier vests and such with inserted ceramic plates aren't all that much different that brigadine, a form of medieval armor where they sandwich metal plates between two layers of cloth or leather. It BRP terms it would be similar to mail, but only average cost since they used to scavenge the plates from old suits of armor. It often got misidentified as the non-existent "studded" armor . because of the "rivets that held it together.  So medieval people wouldn't find the armor all that surprising, or even good, since the ceramic bits break when hit.

It's the compact "prodds" that are going to everyone attention. They are a lot easier to use, faster, and more deadly than the lead throwing weapons the medieval people have. And those 5.7mm rounds for the P90 are good at penetrating armor. Even the standard jacked round is semi ammo piecing, and can go through a Class IIA vest. The SS190 are armor piercing and can get through a IIIA vest. (I was working on the Five-Seven last night for another RPG so the data is fresh in my head)

BTW, let me know if you want game stats for the Five-Seven or the P90. The UGE only has generic stats.

 

 

4 hours ago, Quintin said:

 Another concern is that the PC with the ability to summon elementals would become a prime target for enemies with braincells.

Maybe, but then so would any PC who pens up with their PDW. I mean anyone who identifies themselves as a greater threat is going to draw more fire. This is why the "squad machingunner" with the B.A.R. or Thompson was usually the primary target in a firefight. Most gamers figure this out when one player seriously outguns the others.and most of the bad guys concentrate their fire on them. 

The players do the same thing, too. Io once played in a game where we would up in a boat chase and the bad guys had a M2 machinegun. Something more than capable of killing all the PCs, and the boat we rode in on, at the same time. Suddenly, my new job became taking head shots on any bad guy who so much as touched the M2.  

4 hours ago, Quintin said:

I have established that there are realms for the elements. Though I had planned on those not being traversable for people. Taking the realm of fire as an example, I like the Idea that there is only one fire, which is the realm of fire. if there is a way opening from the realm of fire to the peoples realm, parts of that one fire slip through, or in the case of summoning are pulled through.

You might want to lok up some of Michael Moorcock's mulitverse stuff. In his multiverse, there are Elemental Rulers, who hold sway over their element (and all the associated elemental). StarGate is pretty much a mulitverse setting, only with high tech gates between worlds rather than sorcerers portals to other planes of existence. But you seem to be bringing the magic back, so it very Elric/Eternal Champion. You setting so far is pretty much what a dimension travelling sorcerer could experience in the Strombringer RPG.

 

4 hours ago, Quintin said:

I think there is some potential in a, in my setting ultimately false, theory of the creation of the world, with parts of these elements crumbling into space, although that would just be a theory some NPC's would persue and far from the truth.

In acctuality the nature of the material word forces the sentience of the elements into a material body. Which would disprove the theory I just mentioned, which again I like since the theory is false in my setting. To build the body the element would need to use its own power.

 

I'd advise against figuring out the truth behind reality unless you have to. I think most GMs over explain the workings of their universe, and I think that detracts from it's believably. In the real world we don't really know all that much about reality. We have tons of theories, and we observe a lot of stuff, but we don't have many of the answers. We don't even know what gravity is.

[Quintin]

In general thank you for the help an the insight. This exchange has next to quenching my worries inspired me in ways I did not see coming (Fire Deer!)

 

23 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I'd advise against figuring out the truth behind reality unless you have to. I think most GMs over explain the workings of their universe, and I think that detracts from it's believably. In the real world we don't really know all that much about reality. We have tons of theories, and we observe a lot of stuff, but we don't have many of the answers. We don't even know what gravity is.

I much agreed on this. Except the "people" behind the creation of this world are central for the campaign and therefore the setting.

 

27 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

You setting so far is pretty much what a dimension travelling sorcerer could experience in the Strombringer RPG.

Some people claim there are no new ideas 😄

 

17 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

BTW, let me know if you want game stats for the Five-Seven or the P90. The UGE only has generic stats.

I bought the investigator weapons, though did not have time to look at them yet. Is that what you are offering? Otherwise I would certainly be interessted.

[Atgxtg]

55 minutes ago, Quintin said:

In general thank you for the help an the insight. This exchange has next to quenching my worries inspired me in ways I did not see coming (Fire Deer!)

Cool, that's what the site is for, right?

55 minutes ago, Quintin said:

I much agreed on this. Except the "people" behind the creation of this world are central for the campaign and therefore the setting.

Yeah, but you probably only need  a fraction of the truth to run the game.

55 minutes ago, Quintin said:

 

Some people claim there are no new ideas 😄

They stole that from me!😂

55 minutes ago, Quintin said:

 

I bought the investigator weapons, though did not have time to look at them yet. Is that what you are offering? Otherwise I would certainly be interessted.

Investigator Weapons, Volume 2  does cover the P90 and Five-Seven and most other modern firearms you'd need for Stargate. So you should be fine.

BTW, despite the show using the P90 with the M9, I'd prefer to have my SMG/PDW and pistol to use the same ammo, so I'd either go P90 and Five-Seven, of M9 and HKP7A1. 

But then, the last time I played a BRP Stargate game, I was trying to get authorization to carry an Atchisson AA-12. 😂

 

Edited December 19, 2024 by Atgxtg