Uses of Art skill in RQG

[glarkhag]

I've had players ask what's the point of art. I've also heard people ask this question in the real world context to be fair.

Art as a skill can sometimes be seen by modern people as an aesthetic "nice to have" for adventurers but it's worth considering that in some real world traditions it holds an important cultural place in divinity and spirituality.   Art can be used in clothing (be that everyday or ritual) and other day to day implements to remind us of our spiritual and divine obligations, and duties and purpose.

I think art can become particularly useful to adventurers when used in ritual context and particularly in Heroquesting. The use of clothing, masks and other props to help ritual participants channel spirits and the divine or to help bring myths into mind are things that can, mechanically speaking, augment a ritual.  Characters need to make or buy these things and I think there is an opportunity to use the Art skill to represent the crafter's ability to capture the essence of the other realms and bring the user closer to the spiritual.

If the benefit of narrative richness doesn't work for them players do love getting bonuses to rolls. So that's the point of art, one of them anyway.

Edited December 24, 2024 by glarkhag
correcting spelling

[Jens]

Art has often showed up in my campaigns, both as player and GM, for a wide range of reasons including-

• As a source of income
• As a gift or sacrificial offering
• As a tattoo (magical or cultural)
• As a forgery, part of a heist or caper
• As a statement piece, social, political, or other
• As a decoration, either worn or in a home

While art and crafting gods have so far gotten short shrift in the Cults books, the mention of Iphigios and his lovey spell Breathe Life into Art also gives a potential mechanical benefit for characters that improve their Art skill.

[glarkhag]

7 minutes ago, Jens said:

Art has often showed up in my campaigns, both as player and GM, for a wide range of reasons including-

• As a source of income
• As a gift or sacrificial offering
• As a tattoo (magical or cultural)
• As a forgery, part of a heist or caper
• As a statement piece, social, political, or other
• As a decoration, either worn or in a home

While art and crafting gods have so far gotten short shrift in the Cults books, the mention of Iphigios and his lovey spell Breathe Life into Art also gives a potential mechanical benefit for characters that improve their Art skill.

yes, all great examples. Extending that...

·        giving prestige and status to individuals or communities (e.g. temples)

·        raising CHA

·        helping with other communication skills by creating an appropriate emotional response (e.g. insult someone or make them angry, make them feel proud, happy, generous, pious…)

·        can be used as funerary goods – again providing prestige to the memory of the deceased

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 12/24/2024 at 3:16 AM, glarkhag said:

yes, all great examples. Extending that...

·        giving prestige and status to individuals or communities (e.g. temples)

 

·        raising CHA

 

·        helping with other communication skills by creating an appropriate emotional response (e.g. insult someone or make them angry, make them feel proud, happy, generous, pious…)

 

·        can be used as funerary goods – again providing prestige to the memory of the deceased

 

 

Good thoughts.  So among other uses   Art should be used as an augment to Craft. thus increasing the chance of producing a Masterpiece.

Yes. the craft gods haven't gotten much detail yet.  One who has been written up is Ernalda who is the goddess of weaving, but not much on that aspect of her in her cult writeup.

 

Edited December 25, 2024 by Squaredeal Sten
grammar

[M Helsdon]

In our ancient world, decoration is not merely decorative but expresses religious ideas and practices, as well as status. Whilst many everyday objects are plain and utilitarian (though even a nail head might feature a design), objects of worth, be they personal adornments, weapons, religious paraphernalia, palaces, shrines, or temples, will show the work of talented artisans and artists. Art as we expect it, as merely decorative, will be exceedingly rare. Even an ordinary woven garment is the product of many hours of labor, in a pre-industrial world, so imagine the value of an elaborate tapestry or a cloak worthy of a high priest or king.

[jajagappa]

On 12/24/2024 at 3:22 AM, glarkhag said:

I think art can become particularly useful to adventurers when used in ritual context and particularly in Heroquesting. The use of clothing, masks and other props to help ritual participants channel spirits and the divine or to help bring myths into mind are things that can, mechanically speaking, augment a ritual.  Characters need to make or buy these things and I think there is an opportunity to use the Art skill to represent the crafter's ability to capture the essence of the other realms and bring the user closer to the spiritual.

I think it's useful to note/consider that Art is a Communication skill (not Manipulation), so it can be seen not just as a vehicle to make fine clothing, masks, etc. but that it speaks to the essence of a character, element, power, deity, etc. This can certainly be used to augment other abilities but also in "conversing" with the divine in a "language" they understand beyond "speaking". If you challenge Yelm to a poetry contest, use Art. If you challenge Cragspider to a weaving contest that encapsulates the world, use Art. 

[glarkhag]

On 12/25/2024 at 7:22 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Good thoughts.  So among other uses   Art should be used as an augment to Craft. thus increasing the chance of producing a Masterpiece.

Yes. the craft gods haven't gotten much detail yet.  One who has been written up is Ernalda who is the goddess of weaving, but not much on that aspect of her in her cult writeup.

 

I think it is less tangible than that. Art is a very tricky topic to codify.

Imagine a portrait. 

Craft (paint) is used to produce something that looks like the person.

It might be of photographic quality. A technical masterpiece. But is it art? That's a rhetorical question folks. I really don't want to get into a "what is art debate" on here...

For me the important part of the art skill description is about emotional reaction to it. 

does the portrait intimidate the viewer? Do you fall in love with the subject? Does it bring you closer to God through artistic devices? Does it channel spirituality and bring your mind closer to the state needed for meditation or discorporation? 

does it calm you or rouse your passions? 

 

[glarkhag]

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I think it's useful to note/consider that Art is a Communication skill (not Manipulation), so it can be seen not just as a vehicle to make fine clothing, masks, etc. but that it speaks to the essence of a character, element, power, deity, etc. This can certainly be used to augment other abilities but also in "conversing" with the divine in a "language" they understand beyond "speaking". If you challenge Yelm to a poetry contest, use Art. If you challenge Cragspider to a weaving contest that encapsulates the world, use Art. 

I use sing and weave in both those types of situations. Even if the weaving was being interpreted through dance or song during the ritual it's the understanding of it as a fundamental experience that is the essence. I think there is a place to use art as an augmentation although I would probably lean more towards dance/sing skills, maybe act. As you say a communication skill to express it. Equally you could augment the other way round: communication augmented by manipulation. 

In the case of poetry, sing is already the cited skill for that and as a communication skill is good to go on it's own. Song is a powerful medium and there are hints that it's full magical power is yet to be revealed (in rules terms). 

Is art the window to the soul? The gate to the other realms? The expression of divine action? I guess we'll have to wait for the mythical GM book to find out.... 

[Squaredeal Sten]

So where and how would a Gloranthan learn / study  Art?  I have been thinking that there are no schools of art, but one might go to a place like Wilmskirk and apprentice to study with the best craftsmen, those who display Art in their products.  Similarly if you want to develop Art in singing, you might find either a renowned choral director in the Great temples, (perhaps in Nochet. but depending on cult it might also be at Shaker Temple.) Or apprentice with a famous entertainer, after joining the cult of Donandar.  

I can see that there might be adventure seeds in those paths.  Which might or might not be relevant to the artistic field of endeavor.  For example after coming to Wilmskirk, the Adventurer might defend the master craftsman. Or fall  into  an adventure when journeying to deliver a finished piece or to paint a mural or sculpt a statue in a distant temple or palace.  

I do see difficulty in doing this with a grab bag of numerous arbitrarily conceived characters.  How is an Uz who cannot see most colors going to have a common purpose with the apprentice painters?   How is the Humakti going to have a common purpose with the artist who celebrates Life (Ernalda or Uleria)?  Much less difficulty if the GM limits character choice for the campaign, or if you have only one or two players who fit together.  

Edited December 27, 2024 by Squaredeal Sten
bad typing

[Joerg]

Thinking about art propagation in the Renaissance, prominent material artists would establish workshops rather than school, using their understudies to provide the background or side characters for their bigger works, or to take care of less important orders.

Performing arts outside of regular temple rites are part of the cult of Donandar and friends, whether musicians, dancers, actors or storytellers.

Architecture, engineering and city planning would probably fall into the activities of the libraries.

[French Desperate WindChild]

As @Joerg said, studying should not be the solution, that should be working with a master, in the same way that an apprentice shaman and the shaman

 

I imagine, in addition of "art" gods and workshops,  that you may raise your art in any great temple (and some smaller) just if you  (or your priest) dedicate your initiate time, and probably more, in sculpting, painting, singing, etc... Of course you would need some "model" because if you work with the old grouchy archivist, you may learn some knowledge but no talent enabling emotion for a lot of peaple

[radmonger]

Quick half-baked theory; membership in the cult of Iphigos the Artist, associated with Hwarin Dalthippa, is considerd by Lunars to exempt the artist from the traditional craft guild monoplies. They can, for example, create and sell pottery, but only if it is a true work of art, not a functional container. Lunar propagandas makes much of how this is a triumph of the human spirit over the static ways of the old gods.

As a result, if when using the occupational downtime income rules, they recive twice as much on a successful roll, and nothing on a failure.

Edited December 28, 2024 by radmonger

[svensson]

To the OP:

I'm assuming you're speaking of 'art' rather than 'craft'.... mosaics, statues, paintings and perhaps literature rather than embroidery, jewelry and arms.

Art inspires, educates, and elevates. Without art civilization has no point. A civilization may be defended by its arms, but it is defined by the art it leaves for posterity. There is a reason we are far, far more impressed by Ancient Rome and China than we are with the Mongolian Empire. Civilizations that leave a body of art and literature are remembered, while those that don't are sidetracked to academia.

I once did a paper in college on the basic foundation of Western democracy was not Athenian Greece, but the Althings and wapentakken of Scandinavia. I had to protest my grade to the department because my teacher said I couldn't prove that althings were 'democratic' because they left no written law.

 

[M Helsdon]

8 hours ago, svensson said:

There is a reason we are far, far more impressed by Ancient Rome and China than we are with the Mongolian Empire.

Um, Genghis (and Sheng) would like a word.

If you look at many pieces of European Renaissance art, there are Mongol elements present - textiles, scripts, garments. The Mongols transmitted artistic elements across Eurasia, from Europe to China, and back, and added their own elements. Across their khanates the khans were as much patrons of the arts as any western prince. I suspect, as with your althing difficulties, it's more a case of familiarity than absence. Why, you can even see the Mongol influence in modern RuneQuest art, as Katrin Dirim's work shows the influence of Turkish, Persian, Mughal miniature paintings, all derived from the court art of the Mongol Khanates.

I imagine that in Glorantha, the Pentans and especially the Red Hair caravans have a major influence on Pelorian art, bringing designs and styles from Kralorela.

Art, without craft, cannot exist. The two are closely entwined, and the modern distinction between the two was far less pronounced in the past. Art was more an indication of the level of excellence and skill.  

Edited December 28, 2024 by M Helsdon

[svensson]

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Um, Genghis (and Sheng) would like a word.

If you look at many pieces of European Renaissance art, there are Mongol elements present - textiles, scripts, garments. The Mongols transmitted artistic elements across Eurasia, from Europe to China, and back, and added their own elements. Across their khanates the khans were as much patrons of the arts as any western prince. I suspect, as with your althing difficulties, it's more a case of familiarity than absence. Why, you can even see the Mongol influence in modern RuneQuest art, as Katrin Dirim's work shows the influence of Turkish, Persian, Mughal miniature paintings, all derived from the court art of the Mongol Khanates.

I imagine that in Glorantha, the Pentans and especially the Red Hair caravans have a major influence on Pelorian art, bringing designs and styles from Kralorela.

Art, without craft, cannot exist. The two are closely entwined, and the modern distinction between the two was far less pronounced in the past. Art was more an indication of the level of excellence and skill.  

I agree with everything you said... but...

The Mongolian Empire does not capture the public the same way Rome, or Greece, or Ch'in China, or the Ottomans do. Perhaps I should have used Attila and Hunnic Empire, but any one of the Great Central Asian Horse Invasions would substitute. Yes, the Huns and the Mongols scared the bejeezus out of their contemporary more sedate societies, but because they left very little beyond grave goods they were consigned to plagues and earthquakes... a manifestation of the Wrath of God. It wasn't until the advent of 20th century search techniques that we really knew anything at all about any of the Steppe Cultures beyond anecdotal mentions from their enemies.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

The Mongolian Empire does not capture the public

Which "public"? An American public that receives very poor history lessons about the world at-large? Or some other public?

[M Helsdon]

10 hours ago, svensson said:

The Mongolian Empire does not capture the public the same way Rome, or Greece, or Ch'in China, or the Ottomans do.

Which public? Travel east from Europe, and you'll find the public are well aware of the impact of the Mongols, including on art.

10 hours ago, svensson said:

Perhaps I should have used Attila and Hunnic Empire, but any one of the Great Central Asian Horse Invasions would substitute.

Hmm, don't say that to the Hungarians....

10 hours ago, svensson said:

t wasn't until the advent of 20th century search techniques that we really knew anything at all about any of the Steppe Cultures beyond anecdotal mentions from their enemies.

Herodotus, Marco Polo, and various Nestorian and Catholic missionaries and writers are amused.

You really need to read about the Scythians, and the impact of the Mongols on art, from Europe to Yuan China.

And the althing is very well documented in many Icelandic sagas, including Njál's Saga, Laxdæla Saga, Eyrbyggja Saga, and Grettir's Saga. All the sagas are well worth reading.

But this isn't really relevant to Glorantha.

Edited December 29, 2024 by M Helsdon

[glarkhag]

11 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Art, without craft, cannot exist. The two are closely entwined, and the modern distinction between the two was far less pronounced in the past. Art was more an indication of the level of excellence and skill.  

But in game terms the distinction is clear, although the application less so. You can have craft without art and you can have art without craft (literature, music). 

And for me the definition of art in game terms is that it creates an emotional reaction. Sure your pottery might have some people painted on it and it's the use of Art skill that turns those pictures into something of meaning, of impact. With craft skill they look like people. With art they make a difference to your state. 

Art for me is not about increasing the quality of the item. Obviously it will increase the value to someone who appreciates the art. But if quality is defined as relating to the technical aspects of the item then art does not enhance quality. 

You can have a master crafted blanket that is merely functional and durable and an apprentice sword that is a work of art. Naturally a master crafted work of art will surpass an apprentice's most of the time. 

You can have someone technically gifted at playing the harp who does not evoke any appreciable emotion when they play. 

Children's paintings are a good example of what I'm trying to express. They might only vaguely look like what they're representing but they can still touch your heart. 

Art is heart.

[M Helsdon]

44 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

 

Art is heart.

See the Skill description: Art is the creation of images or objects such as painting and sculpture. It measures the artist’s ability to communicate an idea, such as beauty, divinity, grace, etc., as well as the artist’s technical skill. This skill is used in media as diverse as pottery, bronze, gold, marble, silver, stone, terracotta, wall paintings, and more.

Art is a Communication skill, Craft a Manipulation skill.

I suspect that both skills need to be successful to create a piece of art.

Literature is a different skill, probably requiring a high language skill - read/write might be useful, but an author of quality will have a scribe secretary to write things down for them.

Edited December 29, 2024 by M Helsdon

[glarkhag]

22 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

See the Skill description: Art is the creation of images or objects such as painting and sculpture. It measures the artist’s ability to communicate an idea, such as beauty, divinity, grace, etc., as well as the artist’s technical skill. This skill is used in media as diverse as pottery, bronze, gold, marble, silver, stone, terracotta, wall paintings, and more.

Art is a Communication skill, Craft a Manipulation skill.

I would dispute the technical skill part of the description as being sensible. RAW means you could be an artist in any medium with just one skill. Like having a Combat skill covering all weapons.

22 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I suspect that both skills need to be successful to create a piece of art.

Well, only art needs to succeed for it to be art. As per the children's art example. 

22 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Literature is a different skill, probably requiring a high language skill - read/write might be useful, but an author of quality will have a scribe secretary to write things down for them.

I consider Language to be a medium like paint or marble. Being technically good at writing (grammar and spelling) would not automatically make you a great writer in a literary sense. 

[soltakss]

21 hours ago, svensson said:

I'm assuming you're speaking of 'art' rather than 'craft'.... mosaics, statues, paintings and perhaps literature rather than embroidery, jewelry and arms.

Those can all be art. Sure, a plain gold ring probably comes under craft, but a gold ring with an eagle's head with precious stones could be art. Similarly, tapestries or woven rugs can be pieces of art.

13 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

If you look at many pieces of European Renaissance art, there are Mongol elements present - textiles, scripts, garments. The Mongols transmitted artistic elements across Eurasia, from Europe to China, and back, and added their own elements. Across their khanates the khans were as much patrons of the arts as any western prince. I suspect, as with your althing difficulties, it's more a case of familiarity than absence. Why, you can even see the Mongol influence in modern RuneQuest art, as Katrin Dirim's work shows the influence of Turkish, Persian, Mughal miniature paintings, all derived from the court art of the Mongol Khanates.

Yes, in many cases, the art of the Mongol Empire and its successors was better than that of the equivalent medieval European art.

15 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

I consider Language to be a medium like paint or marble. Being technically good at writing (grammar and spelling) would not automatically make you a great writer in a literary sense. 

Agreed, Art should cover epic poetry, for example.

[Agentorange]

I think something Glarkhag said in their original post is pretty central here:
"I think art can become particularly useful to adventurers when used in ritual context and particularly in Heroquesting."

In real earth history we see a lot of prehistoric art representing animals - the Lasalles cave paintings for example. And there has been a lot of speculation that this wasn't just art for arts sake but ritual art, perhaps associated with ensuring the success of a hunt or some such endeavor.

So in Gloranthan terms we could imagine Hsunchen type  tribesmen getting some kind of augment to hunting and associated skills. Maybe the tribal shaman conducts a hunting ritual, part of the ritual involves symbolic ritual recreation of the hunted animal in pictorial form ?

Maybe, a combined art/magic skills success roll is needed to invoke the essence of the animal and  gain the augment

Imagine.........

' the hunters returned wearily to the village, the head hunter Conan the Pescatarian spoke " sadly we were unable to slay badly defined animal with one leg shorter than the other that might have been a deer but could have been a wooly rhino if you looked at it sideways, but we did trade for some crayons  for the shaman....."'

 

 

[M Helsdon]

44 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

I would dispute the technical skill part of the description as being sensible. RAW means you could be an artist in any medium with just one skill. 

That would be why you need the relevant Craft skill.

44 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

Well, only art needs to succeed for it to be art. As per the children's art example. 

Your example doesn't satisfy the criteria as specified in the rules. You may love your children's art for its emotional value, to you, but it is unlikely others will feel any connection with it.

44 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

I consider Language to be a medium like paint or marble. Being technically good at writing (grammar and spelling) would not automatically make you a great writer in a literary sense. 

Writing is writing the characters used to record a language. Grammar would come under Language, whilst standardised spelling is a fairly modern concept; English underwent the Great Vowel Shift between 1400 and 1600–1700 and underwent yet more variation, permitting numerous variants well into the 18th century even with the spread of movable type in the late 15th century, for example, and American spelling varies from British English. Printing fixed English spelling to a degree. In societies using an alphabetic script, reliant on writing by hand, spelling is very variable, often depending on where the scribe was taught. Reading Latin, once you manage to recognise the letters, in the original manuscripts, is quite a task.

Edited December 29, 2024 by M Helsdon

[Nozbat]

I really like this thread.. and agree a lot with what has been said.

This is definitely a topic that has been under-discussed and under-developed and generally because most character creation is focused on combat and survival. 
Art is about communicating something that one sees in a medium of choice. The best art provokes something, usually an emotion. This day last year I stood in front of Kathe Kollwitz’s work in a Berlin museum and was deeply moved. That’s what art does.

In our historical world, art was important. It was in those cave paintings at Lasalles, the Viking poems of war, the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, Chaucer’s tales etc. We see the created object, we have an emotional response and we assign a meaning based on our own history, experience and culture. Much the same in how we interpret the world we live in. For that reason, art is a personal experience. Do you like van Gogh’s paintings? I don’t. But there are millions of people who do and I don’t judge them for that. 

So in our gaming world we have to try and make rules that backfill what we have in RAW. Rather than making things over complex, I’m going to combine skills that allow works of art to be created alongside a physical object, whether it is a piece of writing, a poem, an illuminated manuscript, a tapestry, a song, a sword, a sculpture, a set of epaulettes etc. 

Combine the manipulation skill with the communication skill… or any other that’s appropriate. If it is a ritual-magical process.. combine all the skills or roll them separately.. whatever is your choice

thanks @glarkhag for opening the thread and all the other contributors.. it’s good to have discussions on non-combat things

[glarkhag]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

That would be why you need the relevant Craft skill.

Yes.

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Your example doesn't satisfy the criteria as specified in the rules. You may love your children's art for its emotional value, to you, but it is unlikely others will feel any connection with it.

I am moved by other children's art. Ever been to a children's cancer ward and seen the art there? I agree not everyone is even moved by their own children's though! 😁

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Writing is writing the characters used to record a language. Grammar would come under Language, whilst standardised spelling is a fairly modern concept; English underwent the Great Vowel Shift between 1400 and 1600–1700 and underwent yet more variation, permitting numerous variants well into the 18th century even with the spread of movable type in the late 15th century, for example, and American spelling varies from British English. Printing fixed English spelling to a degree. In societies using an alphabetic script, reliant on writing by hand, spelling is very variable, often depending on where the scribe was taught. Reading Latin, once you manage to recognise the letters, in the original manuscripts, is quite a task.

I find language in RQG quite contentious. It's not consistently represented.

Grammar and other aspects of language must exist in Read/Write skill beyond just knowing how to write the characters because you can be 100% in R/W Auld Wyrmish but as a human only speak it at 25% max. 

Punctuation is an essential part of written language.  We've all surely seen the examples of where incorrect punctuation completely changes the meaning of sentences. And  spelling varies even between UK and US today but with good R/W you'd have familiarity with variations. Also you'd have familiarity with heteronyms abbreviations and other written peculiarities of language not captured in spoken language.

Some languages will have characters that represent words or ideas with no clue as to how they are pronounced (the reading in kanji for example). Theoretically you could have a dead language that no one speaks but can be understood in written form. You know that this squiggle means king but not how to say it out loud in the native language. 

Blissymbols is a relatively modern language that only has written form and was developed specifically that way to cater for people who struggle with traditional language communication. 

R/W would include familiarity with variants in characters. Cursive versus non cursive, cultural and individual variations. Cursive English has a wide variety of ways letters and numbers can be written for example.

And language changes over time. I apply penalties for reading archaic writings to reflect that. 

That said it's perfectly possible to be able to know a script but not understand it. I can read out loud  Cyrillic, hiragana and some Arabic texts but 99% of the time I've no idea what it means. However, it would be possible for me to know that CCCP in Cyrillic means USSR without knowing how to pronounce it (and it is not see see see pee). So I could have some R/W Cyrillic (with understanding) without any Speak Russian or Speak Ukrainian. 

It's unlikely you would learn to write a language you can't speak and I think it would be unusual to learn to write a language you can't speak without also picking up how to speak it at the same time. However, they can be independent and R/W can stand alone as a means of understanding language.