Uses of Art skill in RQG

[M Helsdon]

50 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

Yes.I am moved by other children's art. Ever been to a children's cancer ward and seen the art there?  

It's moving, but it is not art as described in the skill.

50 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

Grammar and other aspects of language must exist in Read/Write skill beyond just knowing how to write the characters because you can be 100% in R/W Auld Wyrmish but as a human only speak it at 25% max. 

As an Empire of Wyrms Friends construct, so whatever grammar is there, is from the human's native language.

50 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

Punctuation is an essential part of written language. 

Except it isn't. Limited punctuation appears in early writing appears at most as breaks between words and to denote the end of a section (and not all 'alphabetic' scripts had vowels). Later, Greek playwrights used marks to indicate pauses and sentence stops. Most ancient text appeared as scriptio continua 'continuous script' which makes it quite hard to read now. What we recognise as punctuation started to develop with the introduction of the printing press - it's fairly modern.

Edited December 29, 2024 by M Helsdon

[glarkhag]

3 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

It's moving, but it is not art as described in the skill.

it "communicates an idea".

3 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

As an Empire of Wyrms Friends construct, so whatever grammar is there, is from the human's native language.

That's an interesting idea. Which native language? Old Pavic or literally the native language of whoever wrote it? In either case if the reader is unfamiliar with that native language they are at a disadvantage in understanding then?

3 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Except it isn't. Limited punctuation appears in early writing as breaks between words and to denote the end of a section. Later, Greek playwrights used marks to indicate pauses and sentence stops. Most text appeared as scriptio continua 'continuous script' which makes it quite hard to read now. What we recognise as punctuation started to develop with the introduction of the printing press - it's fairly modern.

Ok fair enough.

That doesn't alter the fact that you can have a language you can read and understand and not speak and that is the main point I am trying to draw out. 

Out of interest how do you handle languages in play?  Is reading comprehension limited to spoken language skill level?

[M Helsdon]

17 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

That's an interesting idea. Which native language? Old Pavic or literally the native language of whoever wrote it? In either case if the reader is unfamiliar with that native language they are at a disadvantage in understanding then?

I'd say Old Pavic....

17 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

That doesn't alter the fact that you can have a language you can read and understand and not speak and that is the main point I am trying to draw out. 

I used to be fairly fluent in a RISC Machine Code. Definitely a language, but I couldn't really speak it.

It's a bit like Mesopotamian scribes writing in Sumerian long after it had ceased to be a living spoken language.

17 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

Out of interest how do you handle languages in play?  Is reading comprehension limited to spoken language skill level?

As I understand it in human languages. An example I remember is two PCs trying to discuss an NPC standing within earshot.

PC A, speaking in Old Pavic: I think she is a Storm Bull. I had him write it down and roll.

PC B also rolled. What he received was: Windy Cow I ken she.

Neither were very good at Old Pavic.... None of the PCs were scribes or scholars. I don't recall them reading anything.

Edited December 29, 2024 by M Helsdon

[g33k]

I think this idea might make for a very interesting JC offering...  An adventure centering an "Art" skill, etc.

Perhaps -- if no PC has an apt skill -- a rival / frenemy NPC whose fine-art offering (to Temple / local Rex / etc) finds more favor than their "basic batch" of coin-and-armaments, or other exemplars of why they'd want to develop such skills.

Edited December 31, 2024 by g33k

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 12/29/2024 at 4:24 AM, M Helsdon said:

See the Skill description: Art is the creation of images or objects such as painting and sculpture. It measures the artist’s ability to communicate an idea, such as beauty, divinity, grace, etc., as well as the artist’s technical skill. This skill is used in media as diverse as pottery, bronze, gold, marble, silver, stone, terracotta, wall paintings, and more.

Art is a Communication skill, Craft a Manipulation skill.

I suspect that both skills need to be successful to create a piece of art.

Literature is a different skill, probably requiring a high language skill - read/write might be useful, but an author of quality will have a scribe secretary to write things down for them.

By calling the RQG description to our attention, you have convinced me that the Art skill in RQG is for production of material objects, so now I would exclude singing and other music (and its relatives poetry and literature, which appear to have been one concept in the RW bronze age).

But I would definitely use Art as an augment to a Craft, or maybe use Craft as an augment to Art, for any 3-dimensional object no matter whether the material object is metal, stone, wood, or pottery.  Perhaps I would just let painting a mural stand on its own.  Perhaps I wouldn't do so if the artist is painting pottery like those high quality Athenian amphorae.

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

By calling the RQG description to our attention, you have convinced me that the Art skill in RQG is for production of material objects, so now I would exclude singing and other music (and its relatives poetry and literature, which appear to have been one concept in the RW bronze age).

I don't believe it excludes its use with Singing, Music, Drama, etc. "Art is the creation of images" - such can be conveyed through such forms. "It measures the artist’s ability to communicate an idea, such as beauty, divinity, grace, etc., as well as the artist’s technical skill." - while the examples are drawn from material objects, that next line ends with "and more". 

[Nozbat]

I’d definitely agree with Jaja, Sten.. in my view singing, music, drama etc are as much art forms as the Sistine Chapel or Praxiteles sculptures 

Do we not consider Shakespeare or Brecht artists? Chopin or Bach? Ruby Murray or Howling Wolf?

The general flow of this thread seems to be that works of art are a combination of RQ RAW skills.. maybe more than two that produce a work of art

@g33k idea of offerings of fine art has a long history in our world.. how many rich people bequeathed religious art for the benefit of their souls to churches, temples, mosques, synagogues, shrines, chapels, etc which we still benefit from. I really like this idea in RQ and think it should be widely applied

[Darius West]

On 12/24/2024 at 7:22 PM, glarkhag said:

I've had players ask what's the point of art. I've also heard people ask this question in the real world context to be fair.

What is the purpose of Art you ask?

Well, Beauty is food for the soul, and Art represents ways in which we have learned to cook that food.

Art is a way to change people's minds, hence it can potentially inspire passions, grow POW, restore MP, refresh RP, but over-exposure will lessen the impact.  For another example, you could potentially hide a Nysalor riddle inside mystical art that needs to be "read" and thus decoded.

Edited January 2 by Darius West

[g33k]

On 1/2/2025 at 12:45 AM, Darius West said:

... it can potentially inspire passions, grow POW, restore MP, refresh RP ...

Perhaps -- if you want "game-mechanical" advantage from Art -- a piece of sufficient quality can enhance POW-gain rolls or etc, as you suggest.

But honestly, I prefer to keep the Art bennies to "intangibles" & Story-based stuff.

[Zebraman1]

Whilst appreciating RAW it is a Communication skill, in the right circumstances I'd also allow Art to be used as a Knowledge skill (probably using the Knowledge modifer) to identify the era a particular piece was made or perhaps who the creator was, and what themes are being presented. Obviously a GM would need to be careful it didn't supercede Homeland Lore skill etc but the skills are high level enough I don't feel too restricted by them anyway.

If Donovan had been an Artist (or a historian) rather than just a collector he might have chosen wisely.

 

Edited January 5 by Zebraman1

[glarkhag]

On 1/3/2025 at 11:34 PM, Zebraman1 said:

Whilst appreciating RAW it is a Language skill, in the right circumstances I'd also allow Art to be used as a Knowledge skill (probably using the Knowledge modifer) to identify the era a particular piece was made or perhaps who the creator was, and what themes are being presented. Obviously a GM would need to be careful it didn't supercede Homeland Lore skill etc but the skills are high level enough I don't feel too restricted by them anyway.

If Donovan had been an Artist (or a historian) rather than just a collector he might have chosen wisely.

 

I have an Art Lore skill for that, used by a merchant to trade in art works but also to identify clues in adventures. 

But in the interest of preventing skill sprawl incorporating it in the communication skill makes sense. 

[Darius West]

On 1/4/2025 at 9:16 AM, g33k said:

But honestly, I prefer to keep the Art bennies to "intangibles" & Story-based stuff.

If you do that, art has no real use, and no power.

Edited January 7 by Darius West

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

If you do that, art has no real use, and no power.

No power??!?
Tell that to the favorite of the clan Rex ...

[Darius West]

On 1/8/2025 at 4:31 AM, g33k said:

No power??!?
Tell that to the favorite of the clan Rex ...

Sure, there is no mechanism to show that art has power to move and inspire, ergo, it has no power. 

[glarkhag]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Sure, there is no mechanism to show that art has power to move and inspire, ergo, it has no power. 

It could be used to augment influence skills. It could augment or incite passions.

[Darius West]

On 1/9/2025 at 9:08 PM, glarkhag said:

It could be used to augment influence skills. It could augment or incite passions.

It can potentially do more than that as well.  BUMP.  Great art is a magical item, and should be treated as such imo.