Janak Who?

[gumboots_smithy]

So, i've been reading through "Cults of Runequest mythology" and on page 41 theres a piece titled "death and the soul".

It describes the passage from life to death and the various trials ands judgements the soul faces on its way.

At one point there is a bridge made of bone that spans a vast chasm. janak stands here and uses a long stick to knock perjurers into the depths below.

However we get no other information about him at all. I own all the current line of Runequest books and found nothing. Have i missed something ?

or if not can we expect to get more details in upcoming books. If anyone knows more about janak i'd appreciate if you'd share with me.

 

 

 

[jajagappa]

55 minutes ago, gumboots_smithy said:

At one point there is a bridge made of bone that spans a vast chasm. janak stands here and uses a long stick to knock perjurers into the depths below.

However we get no other information about him at all. I own all the current line of Runequest books and found nothing. Have i missed something ?

You'll first find Janak, I believe, in King of Sartar, though it's pretty much the same text.

The most extended text on him is in the HeroQuest work Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes (p.346-7):

"Suddenly the heroes are startled by an incredible din of crashing metal on metal! Beyond the Path of Silence is a deep gorge. At the bottom flows a river of turning swords, locked in an eternal battle without any combatants. It is obvious that any who fall down into that River of Swords will be sliced into pieces, and periodically severed arms, legs, torsos, and heads bob in the violent current. The Path continues parallel to the River, until it reaches a great bridge made out of a million bones. At the center of the bridge stands a giant skeleton holding aloft an immense bone staff. As the Dead file by the skeleton, it ignores many of them but others it knocks off the bridge with its bone staff, into the chasm below. The heroes’ guide explains: “The giant is Janak, a Gatekeeper of the Underworld. He is charged with keeping perjurers, oathbreakers and those who violate hospitality from crossing the Bridge.”"

"Janak and the Perjurers Bridge: Janak tries to knock any hero who has committed perjury (or any other violations of an oath) off the bridge. Discuss the matter with your players. Have any of the heroes violated an oath? Did the heroes violate their oath of hospitality when they stole the Hands? If the answer is no, then this should be a contest of Moderate Difficulty against an appropriate ability (Truth Rune, Clan keyword, Honorable, and so on). If the answer is yes, it is Nearly Impossible to avoid being knocked into the River. Frame the contest creatively; the heroes may try everything from a legal argument to a combat with Janak! Provide Situational Modifiers as appropriate."

Basically, Janak is simply one of the Underworld threshold guardians, in this case the path towards Havan Vor, the City of Judgment where Daka Fal judges the Dead. Janak is the Guardian over the River of Swords and serves a similar purpose to that of Jeset the Ferryman who grants passage across the River Styx (which one you encounter is really dependent on your quest). 

Janak is only important if you happen to have a quest through Hell where you need to get beyond the Hellish wastelands of the Ash/Black Plains through which the Path of Silence winds and to the City of Judgment.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, gumboots_smithy said:

can we expect to get more details in upcoming books

I love this. Odds are good you are the first person who has ever asked and so this is your chance to begin a unique adventure with him. Maybe he has a spell to teach that inflicts POW damage on those with low Truth scores . . . if only someone felt motivated to befriend him and hear his tale, swing that stick a little on his behalf.

[David Scott]

There's an image of Janak in the OOP Eleven Lights, knocking people off into the River of Swords.

In world mythology there are many examples of such bridges over chasms where those that don't fulfil the requirements of continuing, fall into some kind of hell. There's often a guardian (or loads with different roles). Janak feels very much like Móðguðr on the Gjöll Bridge from Norse mythology, but is likely a mashup in Greg's mind of others from mythology, with the name pulled from Hindu mythology.

[jajagappa]

40 minutes ago, David Scott said:

In world mythology there are many examples of such bridges over chasms where those that don't fulfil the requirements of continuing, fall into some kind of hell.

"Stop, who would cross the Bridge of Death
Must answer me these questions three, 'ere the other side he see."

40 minutes ago, David Scott said:

knocking people off into the River of Swords

Another brief point made in Eleven Lights (p.122) is that if this station is part of some specific Heroquest, then failure here casts the adventurer out of the quest.

"A PC who is knocked into the River of Swords eventually finds himself out of the heroquest. He will have a Consequence of Defeat from his wounds in the River of Swords that require special healing at a Chalana Arroy cult temple or similar great magic." (The loss might well be to a Rune or a Passion, even Reputation, rather than to HP or characteristics - and might well physically mark the character in some recognizable way as an oathbreaker.)

50 minutes ago, David Scott said:

There's an image of Janak

This reminded me there is another image of Janak in the Guide to Glorantha p.122 as part of the Lightbringer's Quest. You can see a pair of adventurers just starting across the bridge while Janak judges them. As is the way of myth, Janak's size (and the exact structure of the bridge) is undoubtedly variable but always terrifying.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, scott-martin said:

if only someone felt motivated to befriend him and hear his tale, swing that stick a little on his behalf.

These Guardians are always looking for a vacation, a little time off to spend with their families and friends. You just have to: 1) take an oath to perform their tasks for them; and 2) figure out once they've headed off how to get them back so you aren't left as the Guardian for eternity.

[gumboots_smithy]

Thanks everyone for the info and sources .I appreciate the help.At least I know he's a giant skeleton now. So that's something at least.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, gumboots_smithy said:

At least I know he's a giant skeleton now. So that's something at least.

That's at least how he has been presented to date (how "witnesses" have experienced him). But the nature of the Underworld is that its appearance aligns with your imagination. Janak is effectively your Conscience - the part of you that challenges all the Lies you've told yourself when you tried to evade or actually broke your Oaths. Most folk likely experience this as a version of Death in its skeletal form. But it could be a hooded/cloaked figure whose face cannot be seen. It could be a monstrous, angry demon whose form is related to your oaths (e.g. if you had an oath of celibacy which you broke, Janak might appear as a cross-legged, ascetic hermit; if you had a geas to never eat meat, Janak might appear as a skinless demon). Or some gigantic version of yourself (the Underworld is always a Personal Hell).

[mfbrandi]

On 1/1/2025 at 3:36 PM, jajagappa said:

Janak is effectively your Conscience — the part of you that challenges all the Lies you've told yourself when you tried to evade or actually broke your Oaths.

• So unrepentant oath breakers — they don’t lie to themselves: they don’t have to, because they are fine with what they have done (and perhaps they don’t see it as a moral issue, at all) — can pass freely? “Bridge guardian? I see no bridge guardian.”
   
• If Janak is someone else’s idea of the conscience I should have had but didn’t, who or what controls how Janak looks to me and why? Do I just find myself falling without sensing anyone or feeling a blow? (I quite like that.)
   
• One could try this on for size: those dying without a conscience° have a one-way ticket to the Void: once dead, they are completely gone, never to return — extinguished! I don’t mean to frame this as a matter of moral worth but of psychology. If the advice of one’s conscience can be morally evaluated, it might stink. Sometimes no internalised “morality” (-> the Void); sometimes not the “right” one (the way their afterlife goes may look odd to others).°° If the afterlife and any reincarnations run according to the dead person’s conscience, then the same “sins” but different conscience/morality might lead to very different outcomes. One in the eye for an objective law of karma. »This is not a recommendation. I am just thinking too loudly … and messily.«

———————————————————
° Not without a bad conscience (need to self-punish) but completely lacking the faculty of moral self-evaluation, so not congratulating themselves on their blamelessness or virtue either.

°° All scare quotes very much meant. 😉

[jajagappa]

21 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

So unrepentant oath breakers — they don’t lie to themselves: they don’t have to, because they are fine with what they have done (and perhaps they don’t see it as a moral issue, at all) — can pass freely? “Bridge guardian? I see no bridge guardian.”

They don't think they lie to themselves, or they are fine with what they did. But they still broke their oaths, and the Underworld knows for the dead oaths come there too.

23 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

If Janak is someone else’s idea of the conscience I should have had but didn’t, who or what controls how Janak looks to me and why? Do I just find myself falling without sensing anyone or feeling a blow? (I quite like that.)

I don't think I'd phrase it that way, unless it's that of Arachne Solara/Glorantha. Perhaps for some it is Invisible, for some it's a monstrous spider demon. What did you Fear when you broke your Oath(s)? And if you had no Fears, why not think it is simply a Bridge to Cross and encounter that which you cannot see.

28 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

One could try this on for size: those dying without a conscience° have a one-way ticket to the Void: once dead, they are completely gone, never to return — extinguished!

Potentially. But there are those guardians such as Jajagappa who come into the Mortal World to bring those who refuse the Path to Hell into the Underworld for Judgment. I personally prefer to drag them first before Daka Fal where they must witness the reality of their life without conscience, and then are either sent into the Pits of Perdition (getting to be the plaything of Ikadz and others), or for some truly sent down the Hellmouth into the Void.

[mfbrandi]

17 hours ago, jajagappa said:

they are fine with what they did. But … the Underworld knows for the dead oaths come there too.

On 1/1/2025 at 3:36 PM, jajagappa said:

Janak is effectively your Conscience

This is the contrast I was trying to tease out: “external” punishment to someone else’s standards: the underworld deities and dead oaths don’t like what you’ve done versus “internal” punishment (self-punishment): you did it, but possibly then you thought — and certainly now you think — you shouldn’t have and are beating yourself up. The conscience someone else says you should have had versus the conscience you actually have. Janak’s appearance: the underworld’s best guess as to what would frighten you versus putting the willies up yourself … perhaps?

17 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I personally prefer to drag them first before Daka Fal where they must witness the reality of their life without conscience, and then are either sent into the Pits of Perdition (getting to be the plaything of Ikadz and others), or for some truly sent down the Hellmouth into the Void.

Some of those without conscience will have been perfectly blameless in their lives (or at least will have done no harm), so presumably we don’t punish them.

The conscienceless who damaged others (as opposed to the selfish who would have cared if only they had stopped to think) will surely be unmoved by being shown the consequences of their actions. If we then have Daka Fal throw them to the torturers, to what end? I doubt that being tortured is morally improving. What punishment does Daka Fal earn for being the sort of not-quite-god who has people tortured? And the living who sacrifice POW to Daka Fal, do they get tortured in their turn for enabling torture?

If we tell a story of punishment after death for sins, it may serve to express disapproval and to teach people what society does not allow. Maybe it will have a good effect, maybe not. However, if we actually implement such a system of punishment, that is another matter — to be evaluated separately.

If there is no pretence that afterlife punishment is just, we can have Daka Fal roll dice to determine the soul’s fate — or throw it to Ikadz only if there is an “r” in the season. Pray you come to judgement in Sea Season and that DF doesn’t call it “Water Season”. 😉

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

This is the contrast I was trying to tease out: “external” punishment to someone else’s standards: the underworld deities and dead oaths don’t like what you’ve done versus “internal” punishment (self-punishment): you did it, but possibly then you thought — and certainly now you think — you shouldn’t have and are beating yourself up.

More detailed than I would worry about.

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

Some of those without conscience will have been perfectly blameless in their lives (or at least will have done no harm), so presumably we don’t punish them.

Are they blameless because they did not know? The ancient Greeks (e.g. the case of Oedipus) would say "no". From an in-game perspective, as a GM I would focus on known oaths and whether broken or not at Janak's Bridge. 

Before Daka Fal, though, I might well raise the specters of those who raise finer points that find the adventurers at fault, but at a place where they can try to summon those who would defend them.

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

If we then have Daka Fal throw them to the torturers, to what end? I doubt that being tortured is morally improving.

Eternal punishment. We don't need to require modern goals of deterrence or rehabilitation. But we could look at it similarly to the Fires of Acheron or the Waters of Lethe - it is a means towards dissolution of the past where the soul substance can then be recycled without anything remaining but the substance itself. (Whereas casting into the Void not only does away with the past but the substance itself.)

[scott-martin]

On 1/4/2025 at 10:20 AM, mfbrandi said:

What punishment does Daka Fal earn for being the sort of not-quite-god who has people tortured?

In my experience this is only a problem for two classes of people: Daka Fal, who is usually not me in the ordinary sense, and those who want to analyze Daka Fal's situation to achieve some experimental heroquest advantage in the underworld. To the extent to which a member of the second class succeeds he or she converges on the first class with possibly unintended consequences . . . side effects may include shamanism. 

This is more or less true for all the gods as directly experienced as opposed to gods as literary characters, which are often imagined as having human traits like regret, hubris, interiority, karma. I don't know who would judge the judge except the judge himself, which is a conflict of interest in most jurisdictions that would require the judge to recuse or appoint a temporary surrogate from outside. It could make quite the tale.

But it ordinarily doesn't come up unless someone extremely extraordinary comes before him and that sort of person tends to have divine intervention or another miraculous escape saved up for these circumstances. For most people the bardo is the bardo, you strap in and try to enjoy the ride until you can't any more. Hell as long as the god within you feels like you need some hell. Heaven as long as you need heaven. If no god shows up to claim you, you're probably some kind of meldek and then the questions revolve around what you actually did with your life. One of the worst things I can imagine in this context is having to watch the Richard Linklater cartoon forever, it just never stops or runs out of stylistic tricks . . . again, more of a trap for careless heroquest types.

Maybe we imagine Daka Fal "happy."

 

 

 

[jajagappa]

41 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I don't know who would judge the judge except the judge himself, which is a conflict of interest in most jurisdictions that would require the judge to recuse or appoint a temporary surrogate from outside. It could make quite the tale.

When Grandfather Mortal Gave Up His Face. 🙂  Or perhaps When Grandfather Mortal Looked in the Mirror?

43 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

But it ordinarily doesn't come up unless someone extremely extraordinary comes before him and that sort of person tends to have divine intervention or another miraculous escape saved up for these circumstances.

The Red Goddess probably the most recent case of someone particularly extraordinary.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

When Grandfather Mortal Gave Up His Face. 🙂  Or perhaps When Grandfather Mortal Looked in the Mirror?

Clearly these are also Trickster tales, for who else would get Grandfather Mortal to do these things! (And of course that means Trickster ends up with the Face of Man, which I suspect he not only has trouble getting rid of, but probably ends up getting killed once again because he's wearing it.)

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I don’t know who would judge the judge except the judge himself, which is a conflict of interest in most jurisdictions

9 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Hell as long as the god within you feels like you need some hell.

So we equivocate: are we being judged by the mirror bearer or the person whose face we see in the mirror? Never quite settle on an answer and put off the awkward questions. (And keep denying — against all evidence? — that Daka Fal, c’est moi.) If someone is handed over to Ikadz, we can say that it may be unjust but that they chose their own punishment. If someone is treated leniently, we can say it was the ruling of an impartial third party.

Of course, we shouldn’t expect any description of the judgement of the dead to entail fairness or justice if it stops short of saying that the judgements are fair or just. Them’s the breaks. Perhaps we could replace the Daffer’s mirror face with a magic eight ball or the mouth of truth. Justice is hard — and bound to be contested — but impartiality is easy. 😉

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Never quite settle on an answer and put off the awkward questions.

Perhaps we should just use the Buddhist "mu" here. It may simply be an unanswerable or an inapplicable question. One cannot experience it until that moment, and after that it does not matter; while watching it from the outside (or rationalizing it), is not to experience it.

[scott-martin]

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

are we being judged by the mirror bearer or the person whose face we see in the mirror?

We're lucky here in /RuneQuest because most characters will struggle with the suggestion that they can take responsibility for the bardo. This means that to the extent to which they feel judged in the underworld, it's easier to look to external entities as the arbiters: received cultural figures, ancestors, symbolic ghosts, whatever the law of the name of the father looks like to you. "The gods." This is all right. It keeps the game aloft like those jongleur pins and hoops and balls and planets circulating in the air where the pleasure of the thing is to ascribe inertia and heft and momentum to their orbits and death can be a weighing machine again in this bronze age revival.

TLDR Janak and friends are just the introjected shadows of mom and dad and the wind voice and everyone else who helped introduce you into your culture. To the extent to which we grow into that culture, we are initiated into these roles and are drawn into their performance. Sufficiently advanced initiates are indistinguishable from the gods and in that scenario the adventures of the god within and the god without converge, the mask and the mirror fuse.

Now over on the more esoteric board we could explore how this fits into the apparently abandoned notion that the elemental gods themselves "worship" higher-order abstractions (rune sources) or the apparently lost hrestolist system of "saints" (with their accompanying voodoo) and all are welcome over there. Over here, I think it's pretty simple. You won't meet an Ikadz in the bardo unless you carry an Ikadz in there with you, which would require someone in your life imprinting the possibility of Ikadz on your soul. Which happens! But over here in /Runequest most of the kids come back from heroquest weekend talking about the person who played Daka Fal and all that flesh man stuff. Other parts of the world they meet Tolat or someone else. That's your drama or dharma or whatever.

The extent to which the courts open up into each other, however, so that for example Daka Fal conserves the latent potential of Ikadz in communities where they don't know who Ikadz might be, is a question that fascinates specialists and bores everyone else to the edge of violence. And maybe the soul is changing so no judgement is required at all any more. A lot has been lost and needs to be recovered. Even the lunar element has forgotten more than it knows.

[Akhôrahil]

On 1/1/2025 at 4:36 PM, jajagappa said:

Janak is effectively your Conscience - the part of you that challenges all the Lies you've told yourself when you tried to evade or actually broke your Oaths.

This would mean that psychopaths and the Illuminated get away with it, though?

[Akhôrahil]

On 1/6/2025 at 11:53 AM, mfbrandi said:

If someone is handed over to Ikadz, we can say that it may be unjust but that they chose their own punishment.