Handling Desemborth Cultists

[svensson]

So, one of my players is interested in playing a 'stealth' hero. He doesn't want to be a hunter or a bandit, he's interested in more of a 'Robin Hood' type.

We looked at Lanbril and both thought that was too anti-social. He's not warming up to Eurmal either. There are a couple of options in @Ian A. Thomson's Grand Pavis books, but they aren't a good fit either.

Does anyone have a writeup for Orlanth-the-Thief /Desemborth? There is very little in 'The Lightbringers' book on it.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

Does anyone have a writeup for Orlanth-the-Thief /Desemborth? There is very little in 'The Lightbringers' book on it.

Desemborth is the name for Orlanth in the Sandals of Darkness rune spell myth, with another spotlight appearance in the Plundering of Aron story. All of this is pretty much limited to the Thunder Rebels book and the Plundering of Aron myth (IIRC repeated in Book of Heortling Mythology).

I seem to remember that the Four Elemental Weapons "subcult" used to be part of the Thunderous side of Orlanth, but on the whole, the Thief is part of the Adventurous portion of the Orlanth cult.

If you insist on having such limited cults in your game, treat it like a minor cult with no rune levels of its own but administrated by a Wind Lord or a spirit cult managed by a shaman. Possibly an obscure heroforming practice inside the Orlanth cult.

[svensson]

Well, Desemborth has been suggested multiple times on the board here as a viable and active subcult of Orlanth. Certainly it's not of the magnitude of Orlanth Thunderous or Vinga, but the name comes up repeatedly as an alternative for Lanbril or Eurmal.

So basically you're saying 'Desemborth is just a side myth name for the Hide and Sneak skills', right?

I ask all this because logic tells me that Desemborth would be a pretty active subcult under the Lunar Occupation.

Edited January 2 by svensson

[radmonger]

Desemborth does seems to best be thought of as a secret name of Orlanth Adventerous.The story of  _Robin Hood_ is a very close match for what Orlanth Adventerous bands were doing during the occupation. Stealing from Lunar-aligned merchants, taking voluntary donations from those who don't want to be seen as Lunar-aligned. Giving to the poor, if only to prevent them becoming reliant on Lunar charity.

Of course in 1625, King Richard has returned, in the form of Kallyr, and so the political justification for that kind of banditry is no longer there. But there are still rich mechants, and now there are no Tello Norri poor houses. So there could perhaps be room for someone to revive the name in the form of a spirit cult that is an explicit rebuke and challange to the Orlanthi now running the country.

However, this would probably be more a direction a campaign could go in than PC backstory.

 

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, svensson said:

Well, Desemborth has been suggested multiple times on the board here as a viable and active subcult of Orlanth. Certainly it's not of the magnitude of Orlanth Thunderous or Vinga, but the name comes up repeatedly as an alternative for Lanbril or Eurmal.

So basically you're saying 'Desemborth is just a side myth name for the Hide and Sneak skills', right?

Effectively that. A rather reduced form of Orlanth Adventurous, with fewer (not necessarily no) combat skills required or taught, and more thief skills required and taught. Maintaining a shrine in an Adventurous temple should work, maintaining an isolated shrine might be too much for such a niche cult and would require a place where a myth played out.

Desemborth is about theft from people outside your own community (or communities), with boasting after the deed and all the diplomatic fall-out resulting from that. This makes conventional leaders of the Orlanth cult who represent their community possibly a bit reluctant of promoting this subcult. Probably more problematic than taking responsibilty for a bonded Trickster's actions.

A heroquesting Wind Lord may employ a few specialist retainers dedicated to Desemborth, but that would cut into the power of his warband as these retainers aren't as good as dedicated warriors in combat situations.

[Ian A. Thomson]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Does anyone have a writeup for Orlanth-the-Thief /Desemborth? There is very little in 'The Lightbringers' book on it.

The P&BRC version of Desemborth is also in Vol. 02 of the series

As a more thiefly/rebel type cult for either Orlanthi with low morals, or those pushed out of regular Orlanth worship

>>I ask all this because logic tells me that Desemborth would be a pretty active subcult under the Lunar Occupation.<<

Yes indeedy. That's why we included it

Edited January 2 by Ian A. Thomson

[radmonger]

31 minutes ago, Joerg said:

seem to remember that the Four Elemental Weapons "subcult" used to be part of the Thunderous side of Orlanth, but on the whole, the Thief is part of the Adventurous portion of the Orlanth cult.

Presumably, at some point in Orlanthi history you had Thunderous clans who knew the secrets of one of the Four Weapons. In the modern day, that gets replaced by the Adventerous subcult, unified enough to share those myths and secrets at tribal or national level. 

Similarly, I don't think there would be anything like a unified Desemborth subcult, sharing secrets. Instead there might be an individual small clan/large gang that was sufficiently hostile to the official orlanth cult hierarchy that they adopted a different name. If they can keep control of a small temple, they have access to a subset of the Adventerous lists, supplemented by a single rune spells.

A fifth elemental weapon, stolen from the Lunars, could work...

[Rodney Dangerduck]

With Darkwalk, Fly, Teleport, sylphs, Wind Words, and more, Orlanthi is, overall, a better stealth cult than Lanbril.  Sadly, Orlanthi is better than many many small cults at their core competencies.

[RHW]

I posted my Desomborth cult a few years ago. Here it is again:

(Warning, probably OP. Created for a game with many subcults for all the major gods.)

DESEMBORTH THE THIEF

(God of Thieves)

Orlanth was the first thief.  Among other things, he stole the Sandals of Darkness from trolls, Lightning from the Fire Gods, and his wife, Ernalda, from Yelm.   Desemborth worshippers will never steal from their own clan.  Technically, stealing from strangers is not against the law, so Desemborth worshippers are not considered criminals.

Cult Personality Skills:  Loyal, Patient.

Desemborth Rune Levels are Rune Lords known as Sandals of Darkness.  They must have mastery in both Hide and Sneak.  They must have 3 additional cult skills at 90%+.  Skills can be chosen from Any Weapon Attack, Any Parry or Dodge, Illusion, Storm, Movement, Mythology of Orlanth, Climb, Jump, Sleight, Conceal, Fast Talk, Listen, Search, Loyal, or Patient.  Sandals get Rune Lord DI.

 

ILLUSION RUNE SPELLS

AVOID TRAPS (Rune Magic, Self, Stackable, 1 pt)  This spells gives the Sandal +25% to all applicable skill rolls to detect, avoid, or disarm traps.  Each additional pt gives an additional +25%.

INVISIBLE HAND (Rune Magic, Self, Stackable, 1 pt)  This spell allows the Sandal to use his Manipulation skills at range.  1 pt gives a 10m range.  Each additional pt adds +10m to the range.

NO SCENT (Rune Magic, Self, Stackable, 1 pt)  This spell makes it impossible to detect the Sandal by scent. 

DARKWALK (Rune Magic, Self, 2 pts)  This spell makes the Sandal invisible and inaudible in darkness.  Blend in is total.  Attacking or casting an offensive spell gives away the Sandals position but does not end the spell.

MOVEMENT RUNE SPELLS

SQUEEZE THROUGH GAP (Rune Magic, Self, Stackable, 1 pt)  On the casters next movement, he can pass through any gap in a barrier, no matter how small.  The caster can pass through up to 1/2 meters of barrier in this way.  Each additional pt doubles the thickness of a barrier that can be passed through.

WALK WITHOUT FOOTPRINTS (Rune Magic, Self, Stackable, 1 pt)  The caster leaves no footprints or fingerprints behind, not even in snow or mud. 

DESEMBORTH’S SECRET

WITHOUT A TRACE (Rune Magic, Self, Instant, 3 pts)  The caster vanishes without a trace on a gust of wind, escaping any pursuit, trap or prison.  No one sees the escape.  They simply find his cell empty or the noose dangling free or the track ending without explanation.  “We only looked away for a second!”   This is essentially a teleport spell which can be activated even when the Sandal of Darkness is unconscious or incapacitated.  After his miraculous escape, the Sandal of Darkness reappears at a time and place of the GM’s choosing (generally the closest safe spot to the place where he escaped).

[svensson]

@RHW Yours is very similar to @Ian A. Thomson's version in Pavis: City on the Edge of Nowhere.

Yours needs some of the basic info... which Runes [I assume from the text they're Air, Change, and Illusion] and the Initiate level of membership

 

 

 

[Jeff]

In RQ, Desemborth is best thought of as a local name for the Orlanth Adventurous cult. I don't think the name even appears in the Lightbringers cult.

[Geoff R Evil]

Makes sense @Jeff, I would just allow more sneak skills to contribute to rune lord status as others have listed above. As this is a local temple decision it’s up to the GM to decide if the local temple hierarchy would countenance rune lords with those skills, such as under lunar occupation it makes a lot of sense.

[Ian A. Thomson]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

@RHW Yours is very similar to @Ian A. Thomson's version in Pavis: City on the Edge of Nowhere.

Yours needs some of the basic info... which Runes [I assume from the text they're Air, Change, and Illusion] and the Initiate level of membership

Indeed, If you check out the writing credits at the top of the cult summary you will see: "(Inspired by Robert Wolfe’s original version.)"
The included cult is just a basic idea for GMs to complete as they see fit, since there were an absence of suitable cults for people on the fringes of urban society

I am also aware that my interpretation doesn't fit current canon, although it is not a million miles away from popular ideas under discussion when the series was first written

In any case, we needed some cool criminal cults for urban areas, and this one (as discussed back in the day) was too good to miss out on

While I make great efforts of research etc to stay as close to canon as possible, I also knowingly vary away from canon when doing so will create a significantly richer gaming world in the campaign context. (Had some very Glorantha-knowledgeable Players in the Australian campaign, and the consensus was that without house variations, Glorantha would have been too predictable and much less mysterious as they already knew so much.) And I am retaining some elements that were considered canon-compatible way back when but are not so much today.

------------------------

May as well put the cult here as its such a small part of the book :)

The only thing I would change on reflection is that the phrase 'their own folk' should be clear as meaning only their immediate community

------------------------

DESEMBORTH THE THIEF

(Inspired by Robert Wolfe’s original version.)

Orlanth was the first thief. He stole Sandals of Darkness from trolls, Lightning from the Fire Gods, and Ernalda from Yelm. One aspect of Orlanth Adventurous that folk may turn to if they are only suited to this way of life (and they live in an urban setting), or if their people live in occupied territory, is Desemborth. Worshippers may not steal from their own folk, so aren’t considered criminals.

Common Passions: Loyal (Clan), Love (Freedom)

Common Skills: Act, Charm, Climb, Conceal, Devise, Disguise, Dodge, Evaluate, Fast Talk, Game, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Orlanth Lore, Sleight, and Search.

Special Spirit Magic: ‘Squeeze’ (see p54 in this vol.)

Rune Lords (Wind Rogues)

Rune Levels must have 90%+ in Hide & Move Quietly, & three more: Weapon Attack or professional skills above.

Regular Rune Spells: Charisma, Darkwalk, Fearless, Identify Scent, Leap, Mist Cloud, Shield, Wind Words.

SPECIAL RUNE SPELLS

Avoid Traps (Self, Stackable, 1pt) [Movement/Disorder]

Gives +25% to all applicable skill rolls to detect, avoid, or disarm traps. Each additional adds +25%.

Invisible Hands (Self, Stackable, 1pt) [Movement/Disorder]

Can use Manipulation skills at a range of 1pt/10m.

Leave No Trace (Self, Unstackable, 1pt) [Movement/Disorder]

Caster leaves no prints, not even in snow or mud.

Scentless (Self, Unstackable, 1pt) [Air/Disorder]

Makes it impossible to detect them by scent.

Vanish (Self, Instant, Single-Use, 3 pts) [Air/Disorder]

Caster vanishes with a puff of air, escaping any pursuit, trap or prison. Cell empty, noose dangling free, or trail ends. Can be activated if unconscious or incapacitated. Reappears conscious/concealed at closest safe spot from where they have a reasonable chance of escaping pursuit

Edited January 3 by Ian A. Thomson

[svensson]

@Ian A. Thomson Let me point out that Hide and Move Silently are not on the list of Common Skills... 😆

[svensson]

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

In RQ, Desemborth is best thought of as a local name for the Orlanth Adventurous cult. I don't think the name even appears in the Lightbringers cult.

It's not even mentioned in the Lightbringers book at all.

[Jens]

27 minutes ago, svensson said:

It's not even mentioned in the Lightbringers book at all.

I don't think the name comes up in any RQ:G publication, or even the Guide. You need to look to HeroQuest books or The Book of Heortling Mythology.

[Ian A. Thomson]

30 minutes ago, svensson said:

@Ian A. Thomson Let me point out that Hide and Move Silently are not on the list of Common Skills... 😆

I imagine they are instead in the Thief Profession keyword (which would be maybe why I left them off), but indeed since the title is 'Common Skills' they should be there

[svensson]

5 minutes ago, Jens said:

I don't think the name comes up in any RQ:G publication, or even the Guide. You need to look to HeroQuest books or The Book of Heortling Mythology.

A couple years ago I asked the board here about Sartar thieves. At the time I was under the impression that Lanbril was a Pavis local cult [and I wasn't the only one] and so was trying to figure out what the Orlanthi 'professional rogue' might worship. Eurmals are consistently portrayed as jesters, fools, clowns, and drunkards and I was looking for someone more 'serious'... Desemborth came up quite a bit as well as references to his HeroQuest descriptions.

It seems that all that was mostly apocrypha, but that was the information given to me by knowledgeable people here. That gave me the now-mistaken idea that Desemborth was a viable subcult.

[svensson]

10 minutes ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

I imagine they are instead in the Thief Profession keyword (which would be maybe why I left them off), but indeed since the title is 'Common Skills' they should be there

Not all worshipers of Desemborth are professional thieves. As we have discussed here, Desemborth seems to be a place where the Orlanthi resistance can go, religiously speaking, rather than Gargarth.

[Ian A. Thomson]

18 minutes ago, svensson said:

Not all worshipers of Desemborth are professional thieves. As we have discussed here, Desemborth seems to be a place where the Orlanthi resistance can go, religiously speaking, rather than Gargarth.

Excellent point in all aspects

[French Desperate WindChild]

If I have to manage this situation I will propose two options

1) Orlanth adventurous, proposing a rune lord specialized in « holy » (or not) thieves activities . In game design terms, he would be able to train the pc in hide, move silently, etc.. knowing sandals of darkness and some other interesting rune spells of the adventurous, and some discretion spirit spells.for me, that’s not because you are part of a cult not delivering some skills (and spirit spells) that you should be unable to find a member of the cult who does not master these skills. 
 

2) Yinkin may be another choice. After all a cat is indépendant, can offer part of his « plunder » to its clan, etc… so that would fit with Robin 

Edited January 3 by French Desperate WindChild

[svensson]

11 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

If I have to manage this situation I will propose two options

1) Orlanth adventurous, proposing a rune lord specialized in « holy » (or not) thieves activities . In game design terms, he would be able to train the pc in hide, move silently, etc.. knowing sandals of darkness and some other interesting rune spells of the adventurous, and some discretion spirit spells.for me, that’s not because you are part of a cult not delivering some skills (and spirit spells) that you should be unable to find a member of the cult who does not master these skills. 
 

2) Yinkin may be another choice. After all a cat is indépendant, can offer part of his « plunder » to its clan, etc… so that would fit with Robin 

I had not thought of Yinkin. Fair point!

[EricW]

On 1/2/2025 at 7:57 PM, svensson said:

… He's not warming up to Eurmal either. ..

You could dangle Eurmal’s unlimited range of magic. Every other session can turn into an excuse for a new trickster spell. Tell your player Eurmal once gave dragon magic to a human as a prank.

Of course, once you truly attract the attention of your god you are in real trouble.

[Jeff]

On 1/2/2025 at 2:57 AM, svensson said:

So, one of my players is interested in playing a 'stealth' hero. He doesn't want to be a hunter or a bandit, he's interested in more of a 'Robin Hood' type.

We looked at Lanbril and both thought that was too anti-social. He's not warming up to Eurmal either. There are a couple of options in @Ian A. Thomson's Grand Pavis books, but they aren't a good fit either.

Does anyone have a writeup for Orlanth-the-Thief /Desemborth? There is very little in 'The Lightbringers' book on it.

Going to the OP post, I'd say Orlanth Adventurous would be ideal. Start with Sandals of Darkness, Mist Cloud, and Leap or Flight. Focus on Stealth skills, Dodge, Sword, Climb, Jump, etc.

[Nick Brooke]

Try this: “Desemborth” is a secret cult name of Orlanth Adventurous, known only to his initiates (and kept secret by them), just as “Tharkantus” is a secret cult name of Yelmalio. These names are too sacred for the profane. Their cultists call their gods “Orlanth Adventurous” and “Yelmalio”, just like everybody else does.

You’ve never heard of either of them? That’s why.

You’ve come across those names in obscure myths? That’s who they’re really talking about.