Handling Desemborth Cultists

[g33k]

On 1/2/2025 at 9:04 PM, svensson said:

A couple years ago I asked the board here about Sartar thieves. At the time I was under the impression that Lanbril was a Pavis local cult [and I wasn't the only one] and so was trying to figure out what the Orlanthi 'professional rogue' might worship. Eurmals are consistently portrayed as jesters, fools, clowns, and drunkards and I was looking for someone more 'serious'... Desemborth came up quite a bit as well as references to his HeroQuest descriptions.

It seems that all that was mostly apocrypha, but that was the information given to me by knowledgeable people here. That gave me the now-mistaken idea that Desemborth was a viable subcult.

Remember:  Your Glorantha "May" Vary (and certainly should vary!!)

I wouldn't hesitate to consider "Desemborth" to be a local (& secretive) variant / sub-cult of "Orlanth Adventurous," with a suite of Skills & magic centered on stealthy/thiefy sorts of activities (I'd give Desemborth no more than 1 unique "Desemborth-only" Rune-spell, however -- the basic-bitch Adeventurous already has plenty of that action, and it's too easy  to slip into Special Snowflake territory).

 

Edited January 7 by g33k
sub-cult

[Jeff]

57 minutes ago, g33k said:

Remember:  Your Glorantha "May" Vary (and certainly should vary!!)

I wouldn't hesitate to consider "Desemborth" to be a local (& secretive) variant of "Orlanth Adventurous," with a suite of Skills & magic centered on stealthy/thiefy sorts of activities (I'd give Desemborth no more than 1 unique "Desemborth-only" Rune-spell, however -- the basic-bitch Adeventurous already has plenty of that action, and it's too easy  to slip into Special Snowflake territory).

You are welcome to add whatever you want to YOUR Glorantha. Be it Desemborth or Nik-el or Panash or Apollo. But such things don't exist in the Glorantha described in the Chaosium materials, from the Guide to Glorantha to the Cults books. The very name Desemborth is going to be obscure, present in some long out of print books for another game system that is also out of print, or in a collection of sources available in PDF only. If you want to include it in your Glorantha, perhaps because you really dug the Hero Wars era material, go for it.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

You are welcome to add whatever you want to YOUR Glorantha. Be it Desemborth or Nik-el or Panash or Apollo. But such things don't exist in the Glorantha described in the Chaosium materials, from the Guide to Glorantha to the Cults books. The very name Desemborth is going to be obscure, present in some long out of print books for another game system that is also out of print, or in a collection of sources available in PDF only. If you want to include it in your Glorantha, perhaps because you really dug the Hero Wars era material, go for it.

Yes.

Hence my leading in with an emphasized "YGMV" (which, I assure you, didn't need to be explained-as-if-he-were-five to @svensson the OP).

But Orlanth's myths include a tremendous number of different sorts of actions.

Despite Storm's predilection for violence (it's always an option !) Orlanth's myths of the stranger-gods was not of conflict but cooperation; and one of the most-noted Orlanthi of recent memory -- Sartar himself! -- founded the kingdom without waging war or pursuing "typical" violence...  And now, Sartar has his own-named Cult, a subcult of Orlanth.  Why then mightn't we expect to see (in our Glorantha's) other aspects of Orlanth (such as his covert & thiefly myths) also get named sub-cults?

Nobody (that I noticed) was actually asking Chaosium to bless the endeavor or canonize it; Thundrous/Adventurous/Rex are fine for the Big Three, with side-dishes of Thunder Brothers & Vinga &c... and of course any  Varying  that any of us choose to do.

[AndrewTBP]

Thunder Rebels p. 221 for Desemborth the Thief, under Subcults of Orlanth Adventurous. 
 

Quote

Orlanth called himself Desemborth when he first took something from another god. He was a prisoner of Lord Kavan, who locked him in the Ebon Cage. Yinkin helped him escape, and Orlanth took the Sandals of Darkness to hide from Elvor, who had made them. The two brothers fled, but their foes still hunt them.
Desemborth has the power to take and to hide. As Desemborth, Orlanth stole a sword from his brother, rescued his wife from a city, took a cauldron from a rival, and cut sustenance from a dead cow. He was the warrior who cut out his share and more from the creatures at the Plundering of Aron, and escaped  while the other warriors fought the defending Face Guards.
Only outsiders call Desemborth a thief, for Heortlings know that it is only stealing if done from kin. No true Heortling is a professional thief, and a worshipper of Desemborth must be absolutely loyal to ensure his place among his kin. Although Desemborth does occasionally steal from relatives, he does so only to return a stolen object to its true owner, and always gives the proper portion to his chieftain.

 

[svensson]

The way I see Orlanth-Desemborth is as a VERY minor cult for those few people for whom 'adventurous' also means 'nefarious' 😆

But with the advent of the Lunar Occupation a great many erstwhile Barntar 'converts' decided to get very 'French Resistance' with it and became farmers by day and revolutionaries by night. These patriots found Eurmal too frivolous and Gargarth too predatory on their own people and so the third-tier subcult of Desemborth became far more important almost overnight.

It seems to me that this premise would stay part of Sartarite /Orlanthi culture for about three or five generations, and then fade back into obscurity after Argrath pulls down the Red Moon. Thereafter, it will the the 'rebel Orlanth' for those with a grievance against the government over taxes or rights... an honorable but not really respectable subcult for those determined to tip over the apple cart.

Edited January 5 by svensson

[radmonger]

There is a thing with taking a very minor cult, giving it a good spell list, and then declarng it to be a subcult of Orlanth. Which is that unless that cult has been created in the last few years, is extremely isolated, or has extreme levels of control over initiates, then what you have actually done is just extended the Orlanth spell list. 

As a subcult of Orlanth, then by the RQ:G rules the magical secrets of the cult will work for any Orlanthi. And if they are the kind of widespread organisation that a PC can just have joined during character creation, the secrets will have been leaked long ago. 

In RQ:G, to keep a magical secret, you really need a mythically distinct figure, like Lanbril. That way the spells are gated between the need to at least learn a different Worship skill, and perhaps have different Runic affinities. So if you are using the RQ:G rules, and trying world-build in a way consistent with them, it is hard to see how a small, but magically powerful, subcult fits in.

So to me, Desemborth is best treated as a first a political term, in some ways analogous to the Islamlic term Takfiri.

Quote

Some political scientists and scholars of Middle Eastern studies (such as Jacob Zenna, Zacharias Pier,^[30] and Dale Eikmeier)^[31] argue that the accusation of takfir may serve as a sort of ingenious "legal loophole" for Islamist insurgents, allowing them to bypass the sharia injunction against imprisoning or killing fellow Muslims. Since it is very difficult to overthrow governments without killing their (self-proclaimed) Muslim rulers and officials or any Muslim opposing the Islamists, and since enforcing sharia is the insurgents raison d'être, the prohibition against killing Muslims is a major impediment against taking power. But if the enemy can be made to be not Muslims but unbelievers claiming to be Muslims, the prohibition is turned into a religious obligation.

YGMV is, as always, a loaded term. But I would say your Glorantha is not varying if:

• you create a PC called Derek the Desemborthi, who gains a reputation for openly stealing from merchants outside his clan.
• that PC gains followers who agree with the idea that merchants being able to freely travel on the Royal Roads is a perversion of Orlanthi ways.
• they go on a heroquest and discover several new Rune Spells
• they argue that those new Rune spells justify their position as being mythically correct
• lots of people  agree 
• when Argrath doesn't, they win the consequent poltiical and magical conflict; this is the hard bit.
• deprived of the tax revenues needed to support a large army, Argrath is forced to make peace with the lunars

This is all just playing in Glorantha, not changing it. Even if you take that campaign, write it up, and publish it on the Jonstown Compendium, Glorantha has not changed. 

YGMV is all about the right to create your own personal version of Glorantha.  I would say someone is exercising that right only if they say this has already happened, or is destined to happen. 

 

 

 

 

[Jeff]

10 hours ago, svensson said:

The way I see Orlanth-Desemborth is as a VERY minor cult for those few people for whom 'adventurous' also means 'nefarious' 😆

But with the advent of the Lunar Occupation a great many erstwhile Barntar 'converts' decided to get very 'French Resistance' with it and became farmers by day and revolutionaries by night. These patriots found Eurmal too frivolous and Gargarth too predatory on their own people and so the third-tier subcult of Desemborth became far more important almost overnight.

It seems to me that this premise would stay part of Sartarite /Orlanthi culture for about three or five generations, and then fade back into obscurity after Argrath pulls down the Red Moon. Thereafter, it will the the 'rebel Orlanth' for those with a grievance against the government over taxes or rights... an honorable but not really respectable subcult for those determined to tip over the apple cart.

Or they could just initiate to Orlanth Adventurous. Which is strongly anti-Lunar, and worshiped by those engaged in dangerous and far-ranging pursuits. In more normal times, this is the cult of warriors and young men, but during the Lunar Occupation it was an outlet for rebel bands. A Wind Lord (like say Garrath Sharpsword) might establish a hidden minor temple and sponsor a band of "adventurers" (aka rebels). In fact, this exactly what Garrath Sharpsword (Argrath) did in the Big Rubble. Once Sartar is liberated, these Orlanth Adventurous bands become a keystone of what ends up being the Sartar Free Army and Magical Union.

But going back to the initial post, if a play wants a "stealthy character" we have a couple of good options in the published RQ materials:

Orlanth Adventurous - warriors that appear out of the shadows (Darkwalk) and the mist (Mist Cloud) or just fly onto the scene (Flight or Leap) to strike hard, take stuff, whatever (but don't assassinate, kill silently, etc). They do their thing and don't stick around afterwards. Rebel not criminal.

Lanbril - members of organized crime. You don't have stealth magic, but you are perfectly willing to kill without warning, steal without anyone noticing, etc. You are mafiosa, not magical heroes. Criminal not rebel.

Eurmal - Tricksters and Clowns. You use illusion and other magic to steal and rob, and sometimes even murder. Transgressive rather than criminal or rebel.

Yinkin - shadow cats. With enough Rune points, you can turn yourself into a shadow cat. But even with fewer, Catseye plus a good Move Quietly skill gives you the ability to walk around unnoticed in the darkness. Rebel or criminal or even a hunter. 

[Akhôrahil]

While this would typically just be Orlanth Adventurous as many have said, it’s completely reasonable that there could be the rare Desemborth sub-sub-cult shrine teaching some rare or unique spell. Probably not for free. A kind GM could let the starting character already have access.

Edited January 6 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 1/5/2025 at 11:29 AM, radmonger said:

YGMV is all about the right to create your own personal version of Glorantha.  I would say someone is exercising that right only if they say this has already happened, or is destined to happen. 

I agree with you on the fact that canon allows a table to create a hero cult (to fuel heropool) so a hero can "cast" some hero ability. Maybe with more heroquests, pc may develop a such important subcult that this ability is now accessible for any initiate (aka = rune spell)

However that's not canon imo. That's just how the glorantha of this campagain has moved, because players/GM decisions and PC actions

But this glorantha is just one glorantha, one variation. Maybe, the same players + GM will start another campaign, with another base

What my character did may have an impact on the setting, but, if you don't know it, if in next chaosium publications it doesn't appear, it is not canon. It is probably rules compatible (if not done with my house rules) but it is not canon

It is canon when it is shared by both tables and chaosium and when it is the base of all starts. When some change the start (directly at the beginining or during a campaign) that's not any more canon, just how people play 🙂